How to die, while remaining alive

[Everything]

I hope you guys can remain open enough to atleast talk about this. This is not really science. I'm simply trying to digg in my subconscious and make it conscious.

 

Basicly, there are all allot of patterns in everything. Look at your hands. Are they really yours? We recognize them as being the same hand troughout all our lives. Yet this is just one hand out of infinite you have had and will have. Every single moment you have a new pair of hands. This is so obvious that we have become oblivious to this fact.

You sit comfortably in your home, thinking that it is the home you have always come to know. It is not. This home has changed so much over time, yet you see more similarities then diffrences. This is because of a flaw in your memory. Everything that you own is not yours, but it is all from your past life. The only thing that never changes is us. The energy. The energy that moves the body and feels love. When you die, you will simply wake up from the dream you were having. Yet you remain a sleep in that dimension aswell. You will crave yet again to return to this beautiful dream you were having one more time. There were so many things you didn't do yet! So you return within the dream and you think its real again, so you again forget to recall the reason you are here! We keep forgetting and remain stuck in this rat race! The only way to recall your purpose here is to wake up. But if we wake up, that means death. Death to your identity in this reality that you have come to accept. So suicide wont really help. It will wake you up, but you will just crave to return again, because you did not fulfill your purposr here. So you will go asleep again and start a new life here in this dream.

 

So, how do we wake up, while still remaining within this dream? Obviously, fear does not help the waking up process. To little fear kills you and you wake up too much! Unless you can remain fearless, accept you're in a dream yet stay occupied by the dream at the same time. Pretend that this is all real while you know it is fake. We have to stay in between the dream and waking state. So that we can do whatever we want here without having fear limit us. In between life and death. Like Bruce Lee would say, learn to die while still allive. But how? Has anyone done this, and how to go about doing this? I'm not really worried about wasting this dream, since we will all eventually wake up. I just want to wake up now, without dieing, so that I can take more from this dream.

 

Please understand that I am looking for exact words that will work everytime I apply them. I have woken up many times in my life and left all kind of messages of remembering that I am asleep. When I read my own message towards my self, it makes no sense! All that I can extract from the message is to die! I have to denie my own existance! Yet I was alive when I wrote it. How did I die while still remaining alive? I cannot recall the transition. I can only recall the stages where I was already awoke. It was very lucid and my ability to predict to communicate with my subconscious was incredible. I wish to write music one time in this woken stage. First I have to recall how I woke up. I just recall that I was like "this is all a dream!" Yet I was not afraid, but I did not end my life either! I was still dreaming while woken up. I hope with more experience can help me reproduce this.

 

I just try to say to say to myself that this is all fake and a dream. I cannot do it. All I can think of is the afterlife. I only desire death and become afraid of life when I think all is fake. It becomes a nightmare. How do I accept all fakeness yet remain fearless? It cab be really scary to walk around really confused. Where everyhing you knew turns out to be fake. I'm also afraid of waking up completely, in the form of death. I was not afraid of this when I did manage to pull of the dieing while still remaining alive thing! Everytime I pull it of, all I can think of is analyzing the experience so that I can reproduce it. I just can't write it down! The only thing I manage to convey trough words is death... Like some kind of total egoless state. That is basicly death... How on earth can we die while still remaining alive? Because in all my lucid experiences I keep wriing this fact down, in diffrent words, over and over again. Yet I do not recalling any death prior to reaching the egoless state. How can this be? Does this mean we can never write down the thing that took away our ego without taking us out of this dream, by waking us up trough death?

 

So you try to word it. See how deep thinkers you guys are.

 

One theory of mine, is this:

In order to wake up, you must first go to sleep. So we can train ourselves at night, while sleeping, to wake up without having the dream fade away. Basicly, this is really hard because once you fall asleep you will forget your purpose of waking up up within the dream.

 

Do you see the similarity here? As above, so below... Does this mean we are current living in Hell or does my fear of waking up bound my soul this place of eternal recycling and mandlebrot.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Everything

[Protector]

I hope you guys can remain open enough to atleast talk about this. This is not really science. I'm simply trying to digg in my subconscious and make it conscious.

 

 

I can dig it.

 

You need to upgrade your OS to Buddha.

 

So what I see is, somethingness came from nothingness. Find another pattern, what was the same when you were alive and same when you were dead. Before we born and after we die, we go to the same place. We keep existing through our lives and our deaths. You were existing just fine in the nothingness but the nature made you get a body that you could use for a test drive. So when you were born and just got this body, you were very close to death and having no ego. You have to find the true you among the fakeness and illusions you see around you. Travel into your mind, so many thoughts taking up space. You can even hear me in there, how do you even understand me? If we met in real life and we both were enlightened, we could understand what we were thinking and saying just by looking at each other. But as of now, we can also communicate without word if we met. If I put my hand in front of you, facing palm towards you, you will know that means stop. It's even a popular mudra. Listen to some of the mantras in other languages, you can't understand them with your normal ears but they have an effect on a spiritual level or so, because of what you still have. Find that thing that you have and make it your anchor. Looking from it's point of view, you can see everything.

 

Not separating into paragraphs, read it like this

[AЯAB]

What if the person who wrote that is your ego XD, I kid. How do you know that you have died to the self? I think I've felt it before after just sitting around for a while but the thing that gets me is how to define between spiritual highs and true glimpses of dying to self or becoming enlightened. If we truly felt this way wouldn't it stay around instead of slowly downing the dosage. Sometimes after I meditate I feel awesome and completely alive. I'm just smiling from everywhere but this slowly fades after time, how do I know if that wasn't just a spiritual high that ego created? LOL I just realized I asked a bunch of questions when I didn't even answer yours. So Everything, the part when you wrote that when you realized everything was "fake" are you basically saying that everything we see is an illusion? I read somewhere that true realization is knowing everything is an illusion, I know that might tick some people off XD. Anyways this post is just a bunch of stuff mixed together and whatever popped in to my head sorry if it isn't productive toward your initial post.

[Marblehead]

Hi Everything,

 

I mostly disagree with you but you did say a couple things I would agree with.

 

I won't make additional comments at this time except to say:

 

Today is the first day of the rest of your life.

 

Maybe more comments later if a discussion gets going.

[Marblehead]

... I know that might tick some people off ...

 

Yep. It ticked me off. (Hehehe. Just kidding.)

[Everything]

What if the person who wrote that is your ego XD

Exactly! I was egoless, I just let my body write! My body did not make any sense... I cannot explain it, but I was able to become anything. Everything became me. I felt I was everything and every time at the same time. I could become something just by thought. I was not stuck in my body, more like connected to it. This all while awake! Its like the words you would hear from a lunatic... It seems pointless to even try and talk about this stuff...

 

I think what you wrote is totally true. My ego wrote it, this is something that no one can teach you. We all have to find out for our selves? The Self can just hint at the Tao?

Edited October 9, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

Hi Everything,

 

I mostly disagree with you but you did say a couple things I would agree with.

 

I won't make additional comments at this time except to say:

 

Today is the first day of the rest of your life.

 

Maybe more comments later if a discussion gets going.

Yeah, but when you say "Today is the first day of the rest of your life." Can you really accept that? My ego is not letting the value behind the words in, just the words. My memory is filled with past experiences that are all fake.

 

When I feel this connection to this other world, Tao, past life, god, higher realm, whatever it is, I spontaneously write all kinds of thoughts that come in to try and put it into words. I write stuff like that aswell! "This moment is all that counts, there is no past or future. Its all fake..."

When I try to recall this, I cannot understand it! I cannot let go of my memory of the past, I cannot let go of my own identity that has its roots in the past. I can not let go of reality. It seems like death. I mean real physical death.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Everything

[zanshin]

I like talking to people who have died and came back. I work in a hospital so have had quite a few chances to do this. I have talked to some who have some breathtaking storied, but quite a few say there's nothing- and that can be a life changer too. Not so good a story if there's nothing, then again maybe it is.

 

I really like people's hands too. Hands tell a story- age, physical labor, pain and health issues, wear and gnarl our hands. I think old people's hands are especially beautiful, telling their stories of the work they did, the children they held, joys and sorrows written deep to the bone. I look at my own hands and sometimes I'm not sure they are my hands, since they're not the hands they used to be. In another ten years they will be different hands again. Oh, the adventures we can have!

[Everything]

I can dig it.

 

You need to upgrade your OS to Buddha.

 

So what I see is, somethingness came from nothingness. Find another pattern, what was the same when you were alive and same when you were dead. Before we born and after we die, we go to the same place. We keep existing through our lives and our deaths. You were existing just fine in the nothingness but the nature made you get a body that you could use for a test drive. So when you were born and just got this body, you were very close to death and having no ego. You have to find the true you among the fakeness and illusions you see around you. Travel into your mind, so many thoughts taking up space. You can even hear me in there, how do you even understand me? If we met in real life and we both were enlightened, we could understand what we were thinking and saying just by looking at each other. But as of now, we can also communicate without word if we met. If I put my hand in front of you, facing palm towards you, you will know that means stop. It's even a popular mudra. Listen to some of the mantras in other languages, you can't understand them with your normal ears but they have an effect on a spiritual level or so, because of what you still have. Find that thing that you have and make it your anchor. Looking from it's point of view, you can see everything.

 

Not separating into paragraphs, read it like this

Well, upgrading to buddha OS. hehe, never heard that one before

 

So death and life seem very diffrent. Yet I have to find the similarty between them?

 

That will be really dificult if I never even died before. I only got close to death. To be honest, I don't even know what death means.

 

How am I to do this?

Edited October 9, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

I like talking to people who have died and came back. I work in a hospital so have had quite a few chances to do this. I have talked to some who have some breathtaking storied, but quite a few say there's nothing- and that can be a life changer too. Not so good a story if there's nothing, then again maybe it is.

 

I really like people's hands too. Hands tell a story- age, physical labor, pain and health issues, wear and gnarl our hands. I think old people's hands are especially beautiful, telling their stories of the work they did, the children they held, joys and sorrows written deep to the bone. I look at my own hands and sometimes I'm not sure they are my hands, since they're not the hands they used to be. In another ten years they will be different hands again. Oh, the adventures we can have!

Exactly, you keep changing troughout life. Since the change is the only constant, that means that every single memory we have is fake in the spiritual context. Our own identity does not exist. Everything and everyone is this one constant of change troughout all of time.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Everything

[Protector]

Did you just ask me how to reach enlightenment?

 

You can try many fun meditations that make you one with the universe like ek ong kar that can kill you or you can try something more simple and think like a kid again. Explooooore your roooooots, as kids we were more spontaneous, intuitive and with less worry on our hands. In fact, if you just chase something, it will run away from you

[Everything]

Another thing I'm cofused about!

 

When I accept that everything is fake, the world suddenly becomes so real. The senses get so vivid and you even gain extra senses! This is so paradoxical. Its seems like some kind of alien joke to mess with the mind...

[zanshin]

Exactly, you keep changing troughout life. Since the change is the only constant, that means that every single memory we have is fake in the spiritual context. Our own identity does not exist. Everything and everyone is this one constant of change troughout all of time.

 

The past is not fake it makes us who we are physically and spiritually, mind body and spirit intertwine in life. This moment of change is the culmination of the old things. You exist and your hand exists. Are you separate from your hand? Try hitting it with a hammer, your hand exists and it will quickly change as result of a real action. Each moment is new, yet arises from the old.

[Everything]

The past is not fake it makes us who we are physically and spiritually, mind body and spirit intertwine in life. This moment of change is the culmination of the old things. You exist and your hand exists. Are you separate from your hand? Try hitting it with a hammer, your hand exists and it will quickly change as result of a real action. Each moment is new, yet arises from the old.

Yes, pain does create fear and fear bounds darkness to our hearts. We should not fear pain and not accept pain for reality. Pain is fake aswell. I think when you can remain vivid to all senses and not become distracted by your ego even in the midst of pain, this is very beneficial. It seems that pain and joy is of the devil. They're here to enslave us, to blind us to the truth. It sounds completely bullsh1t when I would say something like that in the past. It seems much more plausible now that I've experienced how accepting pain and fear is the birth of the chains of ego.

 

Both pain and joy have no place in the egoless state. It is tranquil, silent, dark, balanced.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Everything

[Aetherous]

It's totally not enjoyable to die while alive.

[doc benway]

 

So, how do we wake up, while still remaining within this dream?

I've played around with this idea of dying while remaining alive for several years so I'll share some thoughts which might qualify as some sort of formula for approaching it.

 

It starts with who is dying and who is remaining alive?

 

What is the "I" that needs to die? When that's gone, what's left? It took me a long time to figure out what the "I" seems to be and it's work you've got to do yourself (and maybe already have). But in a nutshell there are two components, I think, in very simplistic terms. There's the divine spark of awareness (whatever that is) and then there are all the layers on top of that - social and cultural conditioning, parental conditioning, memories, preferences, patterns of behavior - all of that. That's basically what "I" is. The divine spark is not "I" in the sense of the "me" that I know. That spark is beyond psychology and personality and all of that. I hesitate to put a name to it because every tradition comes to it differently.

 

So when I think about dying while remaining alive, I look at the process as disassembling, dissolving, and letting go of all of that stuff that makes up "me." All of that conditioning and acquired stuff that makes "me" unique. And when I've done that successfully, what is left? There is still that divine spark, that something that is beyond what we can talk about and describe in words and images. But there is also value to the "me" stuff - it helps us move through life, keep a job, be effective participants in society, and so on. But it can be worse than useless when it comes to psychology, emotional maturity, spirituality, and that realm.

For example, we make mental associations very quickly and easily that are exceedingly difficult to get rid of. They can be very helpful in terms of avoiding a threat or obtaining sustenance but in the psychological realm these associations are the source of anxiety, neurosis, attachment, and so on.

 

To use a Krishnamurti approach, we need to identify and then let go of the images and associations that we have created. When I interact with another person or with the world in general, I am actually interacting with the image I've created of that other - constructed of assumptions, ideas, associations, thoughts that come from a variety of sources. Not only do I create an image of the other but each of us also has an image of ourselves - things we 'should' and 'shouldn't' do or be, preferences, assumptions, patterns, and so on. So the image I've created of myself is interacting with the image I've created of the other. So we never really interact with anyone - only our images. And these images are full of baggage taken from our ancestors, society, religious sources, and all kinds of things that may or may not be who and what we would choose to be. So Krishnamurti aims at getting at "true relationship" which means to progressively let go of the images we've created and actually interact directly.

 

So he advocates to work at letting go of patterns, preconceived ideas, preferences and so forth. See the other person in each moment as if you've never seen or met them before. Bring this openness, this 'beginner's mind' to quote the Zen folks, to each and every moment of our lives. This is extraordinarily difficult in the beginning but gets easier with time and practice. So if I am completely new and fresh and open in each minute, what has happened to "me" ? "Me" is dead and each moment and each relationship is new, fresh, and alive. And he doesn't even ever tell us that this can be done. He never says that it's possible or that he's done it successfully. He simply invites each of us to consider for ourselves whether it is possible and desirable in our lives. We must find out for ourselves if it's possible.

 

Anyway - just some random stuff to play with. But this takes enormous dedication. It's not a simple change you can make in your life then forget about. It is a constant activity, akin to mindfulness. It must actually become a central theme in our lives and, in effect, becomes a way to live. I see this as a way to define Wu Wei. By dropping all of the conditioned patterns that come from outside of "us" we can connect with, and not interfere with, our true nature. But this is an active process, as is Wu Wei. And in the Hindu Vedanta tradition it is the "I Am" state and in Dzogchen it is unconditioned awareness, and so on...

[Everything]

It's totally not enjoyable to die while alive.

Death seems scary and painful. What comes after death we do not know. The life of a living person who has died? That is the thing I'm interested in. Call it afterlife, I believe we can die yet REMAIN alive.

[zanshin]

Rather die while I'm living than live when I'm dead.

 

Why do you think you're enslaved and analyze one is real and one is fake? Where did the devil and things of the devil come from, but if they're fake then you never were enslaved so why worry about it? What if it's all fake or all real or all somewhere between fake and real? Ever been afraid of things in the dark then felt a little silly when you turned the lights on? If you were adopted who is your real mom and fake mom? One gave you birth, one raised you, all part of who you are or aren't.

[Everything]

Rather die while I'm living than live when I'm dead.

 

Why do you think you're enslaved and analyze one is real and one is fake? Where did the devil and things of the devil come from, but if they're fake then you never were enslaved so why worry about it? What if it's all fake or all real or all somewhere between fake and real? Ever been afraid of things in the dark then felt a little silly when you turned the lights on? If you were adopted who is your real mom and fake mom? One gave you birth, one raised you, all part of who you are or aren't.

I'm just using the word to describe our state of consciousness. When you actually accept that all is fake, everything becomes 10 times as real and vivid. That is why its hard to talk about this stuff. It makes no sense to our minds. Not even myself. I cannot revisit these states of mind. I can only wait for that lucky moment where I manage to pull it off and find that inner place of peace and light. I don't want to leave thing to luck though.

 

I've made some hints for my self to hint at this state of mind so that I can try and gain that mindset.

 

Its like believing. What I mean with fakeness is actually nothingness. When you believe that everything around you is infact not there, everything becomes so vivid and realistic! You become very sensitive and you begin sensing things you have never sensed before.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Everything

[XieJia]

Bring Everything to the present.

 

Live is a past thing, Death is a future thing.

 

To do what you want; Bring Everything to the present.

 

In the Present, there's no clinging. No place for life or death.

 

This is what I have heard.

Edited October 9, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

Yeah, but when you say "Today is the first day of the rest of your life." Can you really accept that? My ego is not letting the value behind the words in, just the words. My memory is filled with past experiences that are all fake.

 

I hear what you are saying. I'm not suggesting that we forget all the lessons of the past so that we have to keep making them over and over again. What I am suggesting is that the past is written in stone. Ain't nottin' we can do to change the past. So why play that freakin' "What if?" game?

 

We can only go forward in time. We cannot go backward.

 

No, your past experiences are not fake. You would not have written that opening post had this been true. We are constantly confronted with new data, either from the outside or from within our own brain. Most data we can trash because it doesn't concern us or it is something we can do nothing about.

 

What concerns us and what we can do something about is what we should concentrate on.

 

You mentioned 'changes' in your opening post. This I absolutely agree with. We are constantly going through changes. We aren't the exact same person we were yesterday, neither physically nor mentally unless we were in a total coma.

 

We are travelling a path along our journey in life. We can change directions any time we wish to do so. True, we have many restriction physically but we are unbound mentally and especially spiritually. We don't need to kill our ego - we don't need to wipe out our past - just change directions. Left Face - March!

[Marblehead]

It's totally not enjoyable to die while alive.

 

Although I have never done that I would assume that you are correct.

[manitou]

Did you just ask me how to reach enlightenment?

 

You can try many fun meditations that make you one with the universe like ek ong kar that can kill you or you can try something more simple and think like a kid again. Explooooore your roooooots, as kids we were more spontaneous, intuitive and with less worry on our hands. In fact, if you just chase something, it will run away from you

 

 

I like this answer. Become a kid again. To do this requires going into yourself and trying to remove all the lies others and ourselves have told ourselves. The inner journey, once it's been taken, will lead you to the Eternal coal which lives inside yourself. then we come to the awareness that life and death are just two sides of the same coin. the fear goes..

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I forget who said:

 

"Descartes said 'I think therefore I am.' What about when you're not thinking? This is where Zen begins."

 

Also, one of the most important things when liberating the self from the ego is recognizing thoughts of "cool, I liberated myself." This is an obvious sign that you haven't, since you are believing in an ego that has been liberated. The Diamond Sutra speaks about this extensively.

[C T]

Ever bought a designer shirt?

 

What constitutes the shirt's intrinsic, fundamental value?

 

Most people think its the label.

 

Its as if the shirt 'dies' a little (or a lot) if the label were to be removed.

Still there, tangibly present, wearable, but somehow there is a feeling like its devalued and cheap.

 

Isn't life strange?

 

Labels, values, attachments... 3 crucial things we need to re-assess periodically in order to remain on top of the game.

 

 

 

Ever imagined what goes thru a pro-surfer's mind as he or she sits on the board anticipating the arrival of the one ideal wave?

 

Something inside has to die for this person before he or she can awaken as the wave finally arrives.

 

What comes alive? Definitely not the bounded, thinking mind. What dies? Definitely not the expanded, intuitive mind.

 

Last Question: At which point does one mind ends and the other begins?