How to die, while remaining alive

[Everything]

I forget who said:

 

"Descartes said 'I think therefore I am.' What about when you're not thinking? This is where Zen begins."

 

Also, one of the most important things when liberating the self from the ego is recognizing thoughts of "cool, I liberated myself." This is an obvious sign that you haven't, since you are believing in an ego that has been liberated. The Diamond Sutra speaks about this extensively.

It is said that contentment is the death of desire. The end of self.

 

So its interesting to say to not think. The egoless state of mind was very much about sensing and feeling. It's actually hilarious how hard it is to convey in words what the experience was like. So it is even more hard to reproduce the experience.

[Everything]

Ever bought a designer shirt?

 

What constitutes the shirt's intrinsic, fundamental value?

 

Most people think its the label.

 

Its as if the shirt 'dies' a little (or a lot) if the label were to be removed.

Still there, tangibly present, wearable, but somehow there is a feeling like its devalued and cheap.

 

Isn't life strange?

 

Labels, values, attachments... 3 crucial things we need to re-assess periodically in order to remain on top of the game.

 

 

 

Ever imagined what goes thru a pro-surfer's mind as he or she sits on the board anticipating the arrival of the one ideal wave?

 

Something inside has to die for this person before he or she can awaken as the wave finally arrives.

 

What comes alive? Definitely not the bounded, thinking mind. What dies? Definitely not the expanded, intuitive mind.

 

Last Question: At which point does one mind ends and the other begins?

I'm not talking about subsitutig the ego. I'm talking about having an ego, but detaching from it so much that become connected to your deepest truth.

[deci belle]

[zanshin]

Dreaming mind and awake mind intertwine as does the past and future, pain and joy fear and bliss and other emotions can blend together too. First love that made me cry, the boy I thought I couldn't live without, now I look back and smile mmm old good times.

 

But detached contentment is not a goal for me. Does not sounds like much fun, but I am an artist, bring on the joy and bring on the pain, these things fire the soul, so maybe they are the devil, well bring him too, that's inspiration baby!

 

Also I really don't like labels, something well made with inconspicuous label or even better handmade stuff without a label, that's the one I want. I even take a sharpie and black the label off my electronics, looks better that way.

[deci belle]

Dreaming mind and awake mind intertwine as does the past and future, pain and joy fear and bliss and other emotions can blend together too. First love that made me cry, the boy I thought I couldn't live without, now I look back and smile mmm old good times.

 

But detached contentment is not a goal for me. Does not sounds like much fun, but I am an artist, bring on the joy and bring on the pain, these things fire the soul, so maybe they are the devil, well bring him too, that's inspiration baby!

 

Also I really don't like labels, something well made with inconspicuous label or even better handmade stuff without a label, that's the one I want. I even take a sharpie and black the label off my electronics, looks better that way.

 

Aware nature does not negate phenomena, neither does it dwell on it. Detached contentment is escapism, not enlightening being— it must never be one's goal.

 

In the 70s, I used to take the labels off my Patagonia (before counterfeit labels and when Patagonia was still called software, as opposed to the hardware in the front of the Chouinard Equipment for Alpinists catalog). Even before I turned pro, I realized I owned it; that I employed Jeniffer Ridgeway and Jane Sievert— even when they didn't know it, so in support of their efforts, the R+D/"rip-off and duplicate" team and the vision of the founder, I stopped removing the label. Now it means nothing more than utility of the design function to me— which is precious wherever it is found, regardless of labels. In spite of labels …doo love my Chanel~ and now I am flaunting…❤

 

(ed note: add part about counterfeit labels and apology~ heehee!)

Edited October 10, 2011 by deci belle

[Everything]

[Everything]

Dreaming mind and awake mind intertwine as does the past and future, pain and joy fear and bliss and other emotions can blend together too. First love that made me cry, the boy I thought I couldn't live without, now I look back and smile mmm old good times.

 

But detached contentment is not a goal for me. Does not sounds like much fun, but I am an artist, bring on the joy and bring on the pain, these things fire the soul, so maybe they are the devil, well bring him too, that's inspiration baby!

 

Also I really don't like labels, something well made with inconspicuous label or even better handmade stuff without a label, that's the one I want. I even take a sharpie and black the label off my electronics, looks better that way.

You might think its dull, but as I said, you experience ten times more in the mental or conscious state I'm trying to convey trough words. It is a state of extreme high awareness. A rapid growth of aware caused by what seems to be like some kind of paranoia of reality vs non-reality. Inspiration? Endless.

 

When you actually slowly label all thoughts as fake, all actions, all senses, something inctedible happens. Your mind will race and you will have to keep up with it. It will race to catch reality! It will race and do anything in its power to make you believe in even the smallest piece of idea.

Whar I'm describing is a mind without believe. It is basicly a state of extreme confusion vagueness. Yet creative miracles tend to happen in this chaotic state. The minds ability to recognize patterbs will be ten times as powerful, but you keep labelling everything as fake. I think there are real biological benefits for this state of mind.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Everything

[zanshin]

Now you are talking about state of flow or mind of no mind- I think. Let's go with the usual convention of dreams and reality, when do you experience this awareness? I've been there both places, don't know how to get there. Being analytical and labelling things never did it and doesn't seem like a place of any confusion. Talking about creativity of staying up all night to do a project with endless energy and ideas intuitively all comes together beautifully or an athlete in the game where time almost seems to slow and you can anticipate every move.

Edited October 10, 2011 by zanshin

[Protector]

You're still chasing it

[zanshin]

Was wondering how brainwaves in state of flow compare to sleep and dreams. Might be sort of interesting site that I will look more at later.

 

http://flowpsychology.com/2011/03/31/flow-of-alpha-brain-waves/

 

'Night you bums, sweet dreams!

[Marblehead]

I'm not talking about subsitutig the ego. I'm talking about having an ego, but detaching from it so much that become connected to your deepest truth.

 

I have read this about four times. I think you have something here but I have no way of expressing my feelings (no thoughts yet) at the moment.

[Marblehead]

[C T]

I'm not talking about subsitutig the ego. I'm talking about having an ego, but detaching from it so much that become connected to your deepest truth.

And neither was I.

 

The idea about the shirt is perhaps to instigate a rethink as to how reassessing the values we place on terms and labels could lead to a freedom from neurotic tendencies. Death, Life etc are after all connected, and how we view the process determines whether we will be able to free the self from being obstructed by limiting ideals ~ these ideals are the exact causes which bind us to concepts, percepts and assigned priorities ~ many of which are the direct causes of said neurotic patterns.

 

Finding a right spiritual perspective and developing a healthy practice thenceforth is done in the hope of deconstructing these habitual tendencies, leading to some level of freedom from neurosis. Assuming the practice works, the gradual disintegration of these negative patterns will happen, and when it finally hits us (AHA!!) we get to perhaps laugh at how silly we have been for thinking that we have been fooling ourselves for such a long time by existing confined within the perimeters of words like life and death.

[zanshin]

Mind is the reflection of the moon on the water.

 

Something Zen? Can't recall the source.

 

Moon on the water is the "fake" moon, but if the water in calm and clear we see the "real" moon clearly, if water is choppy and troubled image of the "real" moon becomes ditorted.

Edited October 10, 2011 by zanshin

[Everything]

I have read this about four times. I think you have something here but I have no way of expressing my feelings (no thoughts yet) at the moment.

Its called observing ego.

 

Basicly what it means is Tao, for me. If you are not your ego, but observing it, there is this connection to the Tao. From the Tao you observe your perceptions. This way you learn so much from life every single moment and you can change directions very easily. You basicly become conscious of your sub-conscious. Perceiving your perceptions. It sounds impossible, but I've experienced it from time to time. Very hard to reproduce the experience. There's just not enough words to describe the experience itself. No way to distinguish it from a normal experience either.

 

When you are with Tao, you have no thoughts. You have sense, your mind has thoughts. You allow beautiful thoughts to arise and you strengthen your perceptions, make it vivid. Then you might say afterwards, this was awesome! But its not... Its Tao, it is beyond awesome. Maybe its before awesome, maybe its nothing, maybe its everything I don't know what it is or where it came from or why it is here. It seems to be all of us, the place where we will return after we die. The afterlife, the pastlife. The spirit, consciousness. Maybe its a peanut, and we will all become a peanut. Yeah... Thats it I think.

 

As I said, this is an alien joke. They're completely pissing their pants now laughing at my futile attempts to try and convey this trough words. They're laughing like a human would laugh at a dog who gets angry at a car and bites it to win over territory.

[Everything]

And neither was I.

 

The idea about the shirt is perhaps to instigate a rethink as to how reassessing the values we place on terms and labels could lead to a freedom from neurotic tendencies. Death, Life etc are after all connected, and how we view the process determines whether we will be able to free the self from being obstructed by limiting ideals ~ these ideals are the exact causes which bind us to concepts, percepts and assigned priorities ~ many of which are the direct causes of said neurotic patterns.

 

Finding a right spiritual perspective and developing a healthy practice thenceforth is done in the hope of deconstructing these habitual tendencies, leading to some level of freedom from neurosis. Assuming the practice works, the gradual disintegration of these negative patterns will happen, and when it finally hits us (AHA!!) we get to perhaps laugh at how silly we have been for thinking that we have been fooling ourselves for such a long time by existing confined within the perimeters of words like life and death.

interesting...

 

Is it something like this?

 

"In the world, yet, at the same time connected to the source..."

Edited October 10, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

 

Its called observing ego.

 

Okay Madd Dogg, you forgot the last part of what I quoted from you. That is,

 

... that it becomes connected to your deepest truth.

 

And I think that this is the most important part. What one has done is detatch one's ego from all illusion, delusion and distortion so that one's ego reflects their deepest truth. Whenever you see this person you always see the true person. There is no need to be anyone else, nor any reason to pretend to be anything less or more than what they truely are.

 

And yes, I would agree that this is Tao because the person is being totally natural and true to their Self.

[Marblehead]

interesting...

 

Is it something like this?

 

"In the world, yet, at the same time connected to the source..."

 

Hehehe. That's called the state of wu wei.

[RiverSnake]

I've played around with this idea of dying while remaining alive for several years so I'll share some thoughts which might qualify as some sort of formula for approaching it.

 

It starts with who is dying and who is remaining alive?

 

What is the "I" that needs to die? When that's gone, what's left? It took me a long time to figure out what the "I" seems to be and it's work you've got to do yourself (and maybe already have). But in a nutshell there are two components, I think, in very simplistic terms. There's the divine spark of awareness (whatever that is) and then there are all the layers on top of that - social and cultural conditioning, parental conditioning, memories, preferences, patterns of behavior - all of that. That's basically what "I" is. The divine spark is not "I" in the sense of the "me" that I know. That spark is beyond psychology and personality and all of that. I hesitate to put a name to it because every tradition comes to it differently.

 

So when I think about dying while remaining alive, I look at the process as disassembling, dissolving, and letting go of all of that stuff that makes up "me." All of that conditioning and acquired stuff that makes "me" unique. And when I've done that successfully, what is left? There is still that divine spark, that something that is beyond what we can talk about and describe in words and images. But there is also value to the "me" stuff - it helps us move through life, keep a job, be effective participants in society, and so on. But it can be worse than useless when it comes to psychology, emotional maturity, spirituality, and that realm.

For example, we make mental associations very quickly and easily that are exceedingly difficult to get rid of. They can be very helpful in terms of avoiding a threat or obtaining sustenance but in the psychological realm these associations are the source of anxiety, neurosis, attachment, and so on.

 

To use a Krishnamurti approach, we need to identify and then let go of the images and associations that we have created. When I interact with another person or with the world in general, I am actually interacting with the image I've created of that other - constructed of assumptions, ideas, associations, thoughts that come from a variety of sources. Not only do I create an image of the other but each of us also has an image of ourselves - things we 'should' and 'shouldn't' do or be, preferences, assumptions, patterns, and so on. So the image I've created of myself is interacting with the image I've created of the other. So we never really interact with anyone - only our images. And these images are full of baggage taken from our ancestors, society, religious sources, and all kinds of things that may or may not be who and what we would choose to be. So Krishnamurti aims at getting at "true relationship" which means to progressively let go of the images we've created and actually interact directly.

 

So he advocates to work at letting go of patterns, preconceived ideas, preferences and so forth. See the other person in each moment as if you've never seen or met them before. Bring this openness, this 'beginner's mind' to quote the Zen folks, to each and every moment of our lives. This is extraordinarily difficult in the beginning but gets easier with time and practice. So if I am completely new and fresh and open in each minute, what has happened to "me" ? "Me" is dead and each moment and each relationship is new, fresh, and alive. And he doesn't even ever tell us that this can be done. He never says that it's possible or that he's done it successfully. He simply invites each of us to consider for ourselves whether it is possible and desirable in our lives. We must find out for ourselves if it's possible.

 

Anyway - just some random stuff to play with. But this takes enormous dedication. It's not a simple change you can make in your life then forget about. It is a constant activity, akin to mindfulness. It must actually become a central theme in our lives and, in effect, becomes a way to live. I see this as a way to define Wu Wei. By dropping all of the conditioned patterns that come from outside of "us" we can connect with, and not interfere with, our true nature. But this is an active process, as is Wu Wei. And in the Hindu Vedanta tradition it is the "I Am" state and in Dzogchen it is unconditioned awareness, and so on...

 

"You must unlearn what you have learned." Yoda the zen master.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDezrybpuO8

[Everything]

 

 

 

Okay Madd Dogg, you forgot the last part of what I quoted from you. That is,

 

... that it becomes connected to your deepest truth.

 

And I think that this is the most important part. What one has done is detatch one's ego from all illusion, delusion and distortion so that one's ego reflects their deepest truth. Whenever you see this person you always see the true person. There is no need to be anyone else, nor any reason to pretend to be anything less or more than what they truely are.

 

And yes, I would agree that this is Tao because the person is being totally natural and true to their Self.

Great text, thanks. Its still difficult to grasp it with your mind though. This is real strange

[Everything]

Hehehe. That's called the state of wu wei.

That is interesting...

 

Does that mean some kind of alignment with your inner nature. Being congruent with your self, having your subconscious back you up for effortless flow of actions towards your goal. Something in that direction?

[manitou]

That is interesting...

 

Does that mean some kind of alignment with your inner nature. Being congruent with your self, having your subconscious back you up for effortless flow of actions towards your goal. Something in that direction?

 

I think wu-wei is accomplished by both external study and the inward excavation. Yes, it does result in effortless flow of actions, perhaps towards your goal. Assuming your goal aligns with the flow of the Tao.

[Marblehead]

Great text, thanks. Its still difficult to grasp it with your mind though. This is real strange

 

Hehehe. I'm only saying the words, not suggesting that I have it yet.

[Marblehead]

That is interesting...

 

Does that mean some kind of alignment with your inner nature. Being congruent with your self, having your subconscious back you up for effortless flow of actions towards your goal. Something in that direction?

 

Yes, I think you are pointing in the right direction. I wish that Rene were active on the board right now because she could speak to this much more efficiently than I can.

 

She likes to say that she has one foot in Yo and one foot in Wu; that is, she is standing firm in the physical world but yet is rooted in the spiritual (Manifest vs. Mystery).

 

I think that if we were to attain the state of wu our subconscious mind would be in total agreement with our conscious mind. They are, afterall the same thing, just different levels.

 

I don't think I can go any deeper than this. Some things are very difficult to express with words.

[Protector]

This already has been discussed to death before

and I kinda already said by whom

 

Mu