How to die, while remaining alive

[Everything]

This already has been discussed to death before

and I kinda already said by whom

 

Mu

Feel free to link any posts you feel are related to this thread.

[Everything]

Yes, I think you are pointing in the right direction. I wish that Rene were active on the board right now because she could speak to this much more efficiently than I can.

 

She likes to say that she has one foot in Yo and one foot in Wu; that is, she is standing firm in the physical world but yet is rooted in the spiritual (Manifest vs. Mystery).

 

I think that if we were to attain the state of wu our subconscious mind would be in total agreement with our conscious mind. They are, afterall the same thing, just different levels.

 

I don't think I can go any deeper than this. Some things are very difficult to express with words.

Thanks for mentioning Rene.

 

I looked up some of her posts and found this:

 

"Boundarilessness means both, same time, all"

 

Thats what I mean with everything at the same time. So all time frames are included in all of history. Most people think egolessness is nothing, others think it is one thing. It is actually all things together, unified, yet not merged. It is the relationship of all the diffrent things. The connections between them.

 

My birth date calculated and converted to the mayan calendar I find something amazing. I'm the number 13 and daysign of Muluc/Toj.

Muluc(a sign of harmony, balance, equilibrium) embodies not only the power, freedom and inner peace that these states of grace carry, but also all the of the struggles and challenges we go trough to achieve and maintain them in our lives. Gratitude for all balance and atone any disequilibrium.

 

It says this:

"When the profound currents of passion and purpose that define the human experience are guided with the highest grace and intention of the human mind, you attain the absolute in all that you seek."

 

This sums up exactly what I've been trying to say ever since I began my spiritual journey. I discovered that with highest grace and intention guiding the passion and purpose I could attain anything. How to do this, I did not know. It just happened on some lucky occasions and I keep trying to put this highest intention and grace into words.

 

Is Tao perhaps the underlying Intention of all things?

Edited October 10, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Is Tao perhaps the underlying Intention of all things?

 

That is one hellova quesion.

 

My understanding: Tao has no intention. Tao just is. It is Tzujan that would have intention if there really is any such thing. And Tzujan's intentions, in my mind, would be that everything, including Tao, follow its true nature.

 

Hehehe. And let's not get into another discussion of what the true nature of things is. Once a year for that discussion is sufficient, in my opinion.

[zanshin]

Edited October 10, 2011 by zanshin

[Everything]

That is one hellova quesion.

 

My understanding: Tao has no intention. Tao just is. It is Tzujan that would have intention if there really is any such thing. And Tzujan's intentions, in my mind, would be that everything, including Tao, follow its true nature.

 

Hehehe. And let's not get into another discussion of what the true nature of things is. Once a year for that discussion is sufficient, in my opinion.

Yeah, I don't like discussions either! How about a conversation?

[Everything]

Everyone should read this one

 

http://www.hypnogenesis.com/drwier1.htm

 

Our Unconscious Trance States

by Denis R. Wier, Director of the Trance Institute.

 

 

Most people slip...

 

...in the environment.

So basicly you are saying that the ego is trance, and the bigger our ego is the deeper our trance is? I think thats pretty much what I think...

 

Some people are clueless to their ego's or believe sysytems or reality or trance.

 

Sometimes I try to induce this artificial ego or trance by fixating my thoughts on one specific certain idea or concept. Then slowly as my mind integrates and aligns with it in layers, I get this trance.

 

When playing a piano, I sometimes get in trance and play extremely good. Self-induced trance of focusing your awareness on a specific topic. The trance starts with PIANO. Then you add FINGERS. Then SPEED, TEMPO is added. VOLUME is attracted by this fixated perception, trance or believe system. Slowly the trance grows like a tumor while you only focus on PIANO. It keeps growing with PIANO at the center. Soon you have this Great Trance where you play great Piano and you become proud of your the ego you've created

Edited October 10, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I don't like discussions either! How about a conversation?

 

Hehehe.

[zanshin]

So basicly you are saying that the ego is trance, and the bigger our ego is the deeper our trance is? I think thats pretty much what I think...

 

Some people are clueless to their ego's or believe sysytems or reality or trance.

 

Sometimes I try to induce this artificial ego or trance by fixating my thoughts on one specific certain idea or concept. Then slowly as my mind integrates and aligns with it in layers, I get this trance.

 

When playing a piano, I sometimes get in trance and play extremely good. Self-induced trance of focusing your awareness on a specific topic. The trance starts with PIANO. Then you add FINGERS. Then SPEED, TEMPO is added. VOLUME is attracted by this fixated perception, trance or believe system. Slowly the trance grows like a tumor while you only focus on PIANO. It keeps growing with PIANO at the center. Soon you have this Great Trance where you play great Piano and you become proud of your the ego you've created

 

Your piano playing sounds like state of flow which is a yang state, an adaptive rather than pathological trance that enhances performance. You become one with the piano and it's does flow seems automatic but past the cognitive stage. In the old texts this is martial application, mythic warrior stuff.

 

Wu wei more yin state of mind (might encompass both). In yin state, mind is quiescent and receptive perhaps not egoless but ego sitting quietly. The mind reflects clearly but does not linger and add mind stuff to perception. This is a mind free of pathological trance. Like he talks about in the article, people easily slip into a light trance with enough awareness to get around, but awareness mostly off in the pathological trance, so mind stays mostly clouded.

 

So free and healthy mind mostly in yin state, but of course you need capacity for both. (We know the sages could still kick butt when it became appropriate ). Mind has capacity to shift gear from yin to yang, in quiescent mind is potential for action, creation and destruction, but then mind must be able to return to clear and quiet stage once done.

Edited October 10, 2011 by zanshin

[Lucky7Strikes]

@ Everything

 

Awesome! Yes, I think I am a bit familiar with the states you are talking about. Did you feel incredibly awake, like more awake than you have every been in your entire life? As if the past daily awakeness was comparable to being drowsy? Taste, hearing, and touch were vivid and blissful? Is your heart pounding strongly but very slowly nonetheless? And it seemed as if your awareness was not in your body, but everything was of your awareness, but then you notice that your sense of "I" was just a thought looping around the head and the aliveness you felt was impersonal yet total?

 

You can't induce that state through words. Basically you have to detach yourself from the words like deci belle said, because words are rooted in ideas, and ideas are concrete. The only way is to cancel the words out with words like Nagarjuna would do and make them so abstract you can't even make sense of what is and what is not. And breathe! Put your attention at the heart, and breathe! And let all thoughts happen but as you say treat it all as fake, a dream. Let all these questions go, let go! and Let go! let go until you have have let go of the letting go and just let your intuition of being take over and faith in your own death and as long as you do not disturb the process, everything will vividly manifest spontaneously, the wisdom, the energy, the creativity.

 

Creativity is wisdom! Wisdom is not some analyzing of reality or metaphysics of some deep insight. If you try to consciously develop insight what's going to happen is you are going to just create a reflection, which is false. Wisdom is in the obviousness and how much you open up will reveal that as vividly as your hand. How fearlessly you delve into it is important. Then you won't know whats you or whats not you or what your aim is or whether this is a state or some trance or what not. Let reality reveal itself and do not try to box it in to neat ideas. If you return to these habitual tendencies to construct goals, identities, concepts, inevitably you will be sucked back into your so called "dream" states. And in my experience, that return is literally a crash into the earth like someone abruptly chopped off your wings.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Everything]

Your piano playing sounds like state of flow which is a yang state, an adaptive rather than pathological trance that enhances performance. You become one with the piano and it's does flow seems automatic but past the cognitive stage. In the old texts this is martial application, mythic warrior stuff.

 

Wu wei more yin state of mind (might encompass both). In yin state, mind is quiescent and receptive perhaps not egoless but ego sitting quietly. The mind reflects clearly but does not linger and add mind stuff to perception. This is a mind free of pathological trance. Like he talks about in the article, people easily slip into a light trance with enough awareness to get around, but awareness mostly off in the pathological trance, so mind stays mostly clouded.

 

So free and healthy mind mostly in yin state, but of course you need capacity for both. (We know the sages could still kick butt when it became appropriate ). Mind has capacity to shift gear from yin to yang, in quiescent mind is potential for action, creation and destruction, but then mind must be able to return to clear and quiet stage once done.

Adding no mind stuff to perception! That is what it felt like aswell... My perceptions were the source of all thoughts. Or something like that

[Everything]

@ Everything

 

Awesome! Yes, I think I am a bit familiar...

 

...th like someone abruptly chopped off your wings.

The senes were very vivid and sensitive, yet I was not really dwelling in them. I had control over my perceptions. Infact, I was observing my perceptions and guiding them from a higher place. I think what you say might be a way to wake up, if not atleast make live allot more vivid. Thanks for the great post.

 

Nagarjuna? Never heard of him/her. I'll look it up

Edited October 11, 2011 by Everything

[Small Fur]

Your final proposal is a complex theory to a profoundly simple experience.

 

What makes you think death will release you from this dream? What makes you think this illusionary life cannot be a source toward truth in itself? Now that you are here, do not be afraid to live. It takes an honest and courageous heart to awaken into truth.

 

The first step is to surrender the mental chatter that is this post. It is this cognitive deliberation that drives the conundrums within the inquiry that will obscure you from perceiving the totality of truth in its many forms, including the form you call 'dream'.

 

You are allowing the ideas of life and death- you are allowing these semantics to conjure a sensation, another 'illusion', and an allusion to a potential that you do not yet fully understand and yet also fear to experience in its totality. So sit, relax.

 

What is the true nature of this totality? You will understand once you have awakened. The process of Awakening is neither/both one of life or death- it transcends this, although it is possible for us to use that terminology to discuss. But since this language has been confounding to you, let me put it more simply: Awakening is a shift in consciousness. That consciousness is found in stillness and in silence because as pervasive and profound as it is, it is also subtle and transcendent. And it takes an equally subtle presence, in harmony, to recognize this state of Truth.

 

In this life, you will only find this form of silence through the vessel of your body (this is a form of living). What must be surrendered is your idea (this is a form of death) of what that potential is or is not, what it might be or not be, and how it can be obtained. Have the faith to let go, the patience to be still, the courage to release the grasp towards death, life or even Awakening itself.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Small Fur

[Everything]

Your final proposal is a complex theory to a profoundly simple experience.

 

What makes you think death will release you from this dream? What makes you think this illusionary life cannot be a source toward truth in itself? Now that you are here, do not be afraid to live. It takes an honest and courageous heart to awaken into truth.

 

The first step is to surrender the mental chatter that is this post. It is this cognitive deliberation that drives the conundrums within the inquiry that will obscure you from perceiving the totality of truth in its many forms, including the form you call 'dream'.

 

You are allowing the ideas of life and death- you are allowing these semantics to conjure a sensation, another 'illusion', and an allusion to a potential that you do not yet fully understand and yet also fear to experience in its totality. So sit, relax.

 

What is the true nature of this totality? You will understand once you have awakened. The process of Awakening is neither/both one of life or death- it transcends this, although it is possible for us to use that terminology to discuss. But since this language has been confounding to you, let me put it more simply: Awakening is a shift in consciousness. That consciousness is found in stillness and in silence because as pervasive and profound as it is, it is also subtle and transcendent. And it takes an equally subtle presence, in harmony, to recognize this state of Truth.

 

In this life, you will only find this form of silence through the vessel of your body (this is a form of living). What must be surrendered is your idea (this is a form of death) of what that potential is or is not, what it might be or not be, and how it can be obtained. Have the faith to let go, the patience to be still, the courage to release the grasp towards death, life or even Awakening itself.

I think thats pretty much as far as we can get with words. So its not emotional nor intellectual?

 

When I try to reach this consciousness I start to daydream... I can't really ask for advice I guess, because only I can teach my self to bring about a radical change in consciousness, right?

[Marblehead]

I think ...

 

I can't really ask for advice I guess, because only I can teach my self to bring about a radical change in consciousness, right?

 

Sometimes we think too much instead of using that time to live.

[manitou]

 

 

Awakening is a shift in consciousness.

 

 

 

 

Huzzah. Pure and simple.

Edited October 13, 2011 by steve

[Everything]

 

 

Awakening is a shift in consciousness.

 

 

/quote]

 

 

Huzzah. Pure and simple.

Elegant, simple on the surface, infinitely complex underneath.

 

There is no end to its mystery. I will never be able to accomplish this simple task that requires no action...

[Everything]

Sometimes we think too much instead of using that time to live.

Good thing we can reduce our time thinking by thinking together

[Aaron]

My brother posted while I was at work... sorry about that. Disregard what was here.

 

Aaron

Edited October 13, 2011 by Twinner

[doc benway]

Awakening is a shift in consciousness.

This has also been my experience.

A somewhat subtle but seriously profound shift in something - call it awareness, consciousness, perspective?

 

 

I can't really ask for advice I guess, because only I can teach my self to bring about a radical change in consciousness, right?

This is a very good question.

What actually brings about such a change?

Who can teach it?

Is it something the "I" does?

Is it a gift or a grace from God?

Is it a consequence of having worked hard enough over multiple lifetimes..., or one?

Is it nothing but just this, right here and right now?

 

All of the great spiritual traditions have their own unique way of explaining it.

None really have the answer - all answers, IMO, are gratuitous.

You may choose one path or another, you may experience success on that path or not.

 

I could tell you that I have had just such an experience and then list all of the things that I think helped me achieve that experience. In the first place, there is no way for you to know if my experience is credible or if it equates to any particular state of consciousness or attainment. Secondly, there is really no way for me to know if the activities or practices I engage in are what caused the experience to occur or not.

 

So what is it that actually effects the change?

Is it something "I" do or is it something that is done to or through "I"?

 

It seems to me that the different spiritual traditions serve to prepare the individual to experience, accept, and handle the change. And proponents of those traditions will tell us that the traditions also directly effect the change. I'm not sure I buy that. Many stay on the path diligently and never experience it. And some seem to be awake without being a part of any particular tradition or practice. I have no answers, just questions. And the teachers that I have learned the most from have been those who have taught me to look for my own answers rather than those who provided me with their answers.

[C T]

 

This is a very good question.

What actually brings about such a change?

Who can teach it?

Is it something the "I" does?

Is it a gift or a grace from God?

Is it a consequence of having worked hard enough over multiple lifetimes..., or one?

Is it nothing but just this, right here and right now?

 

All of the great spiritual traditions have their own unique way of explaining it.

None really have the answer - all answers, IMO, are gratuitous.

You may choose one path or another, you may experience success on that path or not.

 

I could tell you that I have had just such an experience and then list all of the things that I think helped me achieve that experience. In the first place, there is no way for you to know if my experience is credible or if it equates to any particular state of consciousness or attainment. Secondly, there is really no way for me to know if the activities or practices I engage in are what caused the experience to occur or not.

 

So what is it that actually effects the change?

Is it something "I" do or is it something that is done to or through "I"?

 

It seems to me that the different spiritual traditions serve to prepare the individual to experience, accept, and handle the change. And proponents of those traditions will tell us that the traditions also directly effect the change. I'm not sure I buy that. Many stay on the path diligently and never experience it. And some seem to be awake without being a part of any particular tradition or practice. I have no answers, just questions. And the teachers that I have learned the most from have been those who have taught me to look for my own answers rather than those who provided me with their answers.

Splendid questions, Steve. All valid imho.

[manitou]

 

I could tell you that I have had just such an experience and then list all of the things that I think helped me achieve that experience. In the first place, there is no way for you to know if my experience is credible or if it equates to any particular state of consciousness or attainment. Secondly, there is really no way for me to know if the activities or practices I engage in are what caused the experience to occur or not.

 

 

 

 

After such an experience (which culminates after a long time of cultivating) the odd thing is that one who has had that experience can hear it shine through the words of others who have had that experience. There's no doubt in my mind, Steve or CT, that you've both had it. I can tell you that I have too, but also wouldn't expect anyone to believe me. At some point we just stop having 'beliefs' and it turns into Knowing. We all Know the same thing, at the end game.

 

But this sort of validates the pony under the pile. It's there in all of us. Some find it, but earnestness is the key.

[Small Fur]

I think thats pretty much as far as we can get with words. So its not emotional nor intellectual?

 

When I try to reach this consciousness I start to daydream... I can't really ask for advice I guess, because only I can teach my self to bring about a radical change in consciousness, right?

 

Hi Everything,

 

Right. The process is neither intellectual nor emotional, rather it is in a state of equanimity without thought.

The moment you 'reach' for consciousness, you create a chasm or divide, separating yourself from your true nature.

 

You need not 'teach' yourself to be as you already are. It is the realization that gives you an understanding (or wisdom) not an idea or thought you bring to it that helps you 'get there'.

 

Generally speaking (as every teacher or guide works differently), I would suggest that one who is awakened will not give you advice, per se, so much as convey to you the state of presence that is awakening. This happens at both overt and subtle levels. This individual may talk if they choose, but while the words will be a guide, their presence will be a stronger indicator. Someone who is awakened can certainly help move you into that state of Being, while addressing some of the mind questions you may have.

 

So, yes, it is ultimately yours to experience, and someone who is awakened can provide guidance and movement towards or transmission of presence. As you noted, words have limits, but don't neglect their vibrations, especially if you can be touched by a wakened soul. Mila

Edited October 13, 2011 by Small Fur

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Then, however, we have to ask:

To what level can an awakened one, enlightened one, or superaware individual lend guidance via internet, when the vibrations are so vastly more subtle through reading rather than sound?

 

Think for yourself and Be, without thinking of your being.

[Everything]

Then, however, we have to ask:

To what level can an awakened one, enlightened one, or superaware individual lend guidance via internet, when the vibrations are so vastly more subtle through reading rather than sound?

 

Think for yourself and Be, without thinking of your being.

Sure. Its already dificult face to face.

 

I just wanted to make sure that the spiritual realm is rooted in nothing.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Reminds me of:

 

 

One thing begets two

Twothings beget three

Three begets all things

(While all things are but one thing)

 

 

Poorly paraphrased quote there, but i think it elaborates the cycle of reality, which is neither ceasing nor is it as incretmental as the discription might imply, but fluid and constant, in all stages simultaniously; and yet elaborations fail to deliver well the idea!