The Corresponding Heaven for "purification of the 6th consciousness"

[vic]

Dear fellow cultivators, namaste. This is my first post.

 

As we know, Sakyamuni Buddha described "28 heavens" that can be used as a meditation-measuring system.

The "28 heavens" are further divided into 3 categories: Kamadhatu (realm of desire), Rupadhatu (realm of form), and Arupadhatu (formless realm).

 

 

Another popular classification is "consciousness-based". Starting from 6th consciousness, to 7th consciousness, to the "first 5" consciousness, to "alaya consciousness".

 

 

My question is: When a cultivator HAS JUST COMPLETED "purification of 6th consciousness", what is the corresponding heaven (out of the 28 heavens) ???

[Protector]

Tell me when you get there

 

Others stop posting in forums when they're there so I'm asking personally

[XieJia]

if i understood your 'purification' correctly.

 

corresponds to being homeless bum

[vic]

Very ZEN LOL to both of you. Namaste.

 

But I hope there is a serious taker to my serious question. I don't have the answer and am seriously looking for a satisfactory answer.

 

Just a number between 1 and 28, and the REASON.

Edited November 4, 2011 by vic

[XieJia]

no need for merit transfer .

 

Could you tell me more about what you are asking.

 

'Purification' is quite ambiguous...

 

The mind go where it resides and dwells upon; it totally dependent upon the state of mind in that moment.

 

For example if one is still attached to coarse sensation, this correspond to the realm of senses.

The Honored One once expounds on the 5 precepts and how it helps one to stay within the Human realm or above.

 

Is this the kind of question, you are looking for?

 

So the mind goes to what it is looking for.

So without the body to dwell as a house, the mind continues to flow according to the 'self-existing' of one ones' karma.

[vic]

purification = complete cut-off

-------------------------------

 

Sixth consciousness: "Ideation-consciousness"; the aspect of mind known as the "monkey mind"

 

 

Venerable Nanhuaijin: "Intellectual reasoning is just another spinning of the sixth consciousness"

 

Venerable Nanhuaijin: "The sixth consciousness flows day and night. It flows even during your sleep and manifests as dreams. The flow may seem to have stopped momentarily in deep sleep, in a dreamless state - but that in fact is still a state of the sixth consciousness, manifested in a state of dullness."

Edited November 4, 2011 by vic

[shine]

The measuring system by Buddha, was the 5 skandas. Form, Sensation, Conception, Volation and Consciousness

Conception is considered the 6th Conciousness, which is always making discriminations. If one is successful in breaking thru this skanda(wind), then one will experientally notice an awareness that alows one to notice the thought or emotion during its rising. With continued practice you will be able to see that the thought comes from no place and goes the same. Using this awareness to watch birth and death is great practice. One must then take this practice into daily life and perfect it all over again. Pure non contrived awareness is the function of the true self. At first you are aware that you are aware, but as time goes by, it is just natural.

 

Desire, Form and Void are not measuring systems for progress in your spiritual cultivation. Conception functions in all three to various degrees determined by your level and consciousness.

 

Best to use the skandas, the 9 samadhis and Dyhana for helping you along your level of attainment. Please read the Suragama Sutra.

[forestofclarity]

Personally, I would worry less about so-called "heavens" outside and focus on the inner workings of the mind and skandhas and see how ignorance and clinging is created in everyday life.

[vic]

The measuring system by Buddha, was the 5 skandas. Form, Sensation, Conception, Volation and Consciousness.

 

(1) Conception is considered the 6th Conciousness, which is always making discriminations.

 

(2) Best to use the skandas, the 9 samadhis and Dyhana for helping you along your level of attainment. Please read the Suragama Sutra.

 

Thanks shine. It's a start.

 

With regard to (1), a small (but significant) correction: "Complete Purification of Conception skandha" is equivalent to purification of the 7th consciousness (the "I"). I notice your post regarding William Bodri. The following is what Bodri said:

 

-------------

When one breaks through the conception skandha, it is equivalent to “seeing the Tao,” or “seeing the clear light” mentioned in Esoteric Buddhism, realizing non-ego as explained by Hinduism, achieving the selflessness of Christianity, seeing Truth or emptiness as described by Zen, the “shen transforming into emptiness” of Taoism, entering the Bodhisattva bhumis of the Mahayana path, opening up the heart chakra in tantra, Vajrayana and the Esoetric school, and many other correspondences mentioned by the world’s spiritual traditions.

-------------

 

(non-ego = "I" consciousness, 7th consciousness)

 

In order to purify the 7th consciousness, the 6th consciousness has to be dealt first. (William Bodri stated this as well.)

 

It takes some digging, but it turns out that Bodri's free articles did answer my question here regarding the corresponding heaven for "6th consciousness". The corresponding heaven for "purification of 7th consciousness" is even easier to know. I think I let everybody read Bodri's free articles carefully first.

--------------

 

With regard to (2)where you wrote: "Best to use the skandas, the 9 samadhis and Dyhana for helping you along your level of attainment.",

 

of course you know that Dhyana 1 consists of 3 heavens, Dhyana 2 consists of 3 heavens, Dhyana 3 consists of 3 heavens, Dhyana 4 consists of 9 heavens.

 

In addition, since you are a fan of William Bodri as well, notice that in Bodri'"Stages" course, the 28-heaven system is one of the meditation-measuring systems he discussed, one of the chapters, lesson no. 4, to be exact. See "table of contents" of the course. Here is the link: http://www.meditationexpert.com/stages.html

 

------------------------

 

 

Lesson 4: Ranking the Heavenly Realms and Various Classes of Sentient Beings as a means of explaining the cosmos and its inhabitants will be taught.

With this comprehensive lesson taught by Buddha, you will dispense with mysticism but instead learn why the heavenly ranking schemes described by various religions are very similar, as well as the characteristics of the various heavenly inhabitants and how to be reborn as a heavenly being yourself. The different merits and samadhi attainments of these beings, as explained by Shakyamuni Buddha, explains why they are born into certain heavenly realms, and thus information on this schema provides another means by which you can gain insight into someone's rank of meditation. Find out how Mohammed's vision of heaven actually matches with Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and Christianity, and how to cultivate the stages of samadhi that enable you to view those heavens yourself.

 

------------------------

 

Now I am actually working on the next question:

 

"Successful purification of volition skandha" is equivalent to what level of bhumi bodhisattva?

This one, I know Bodri hasn't leaked out.

Oh, merit, merit, merit. LOL.

Edited November 12, 2011 by vic

[deci belle]

[vic]

With regard to "heaven" topic, the following is what Bodri said:

 

"I’m not going to tell you what stage this is. Go do some research and then you’ll know yourself. With all these teachings of layers within layers, you’ll also be able to gain an inkling of understanding as to why Buddha partitioned the Form Realm into so many heavens. It’s all science. There’s a reason he partitioned each dhyana into a specific particular number and the Form Realm into a certain number as well. Did you think it was arbitrary religious dogma? It’s all science with a meaning, there’s a meaning behind it and purpose.

Gosh, another big secret revealed. This has nothing to do with “Buddhism” as a religion. This is just a cultivation science. Remember that. All you guys who keep thinking this is religion don’t have the slightest clue and certainly not the right understanding. In fact, we can say you’ve lost your head if you keep insisting on that. It means you’re just fighting yourself because you know what’s true deep inside you, but don’t want to accept the truth, so you’re searching for some way to negate it. “Can you attain this stage?”

should be your only question. Yes, if you practice."

--------------- End of quote

 

I didn't write and publish "How to measure and deepen your spiritual realization" (Measuring Meditation). Bodri did.

 

I am just following Bodri's advice: "I’m not going to tell you what stage this is. Go do some research and then you’ll know yourself."

 

Some people research with attachment, some don't. The act of doing research itself is not an attachment. It's alright not to measure meditation. It's alright as well for Bodri to write "Measuring Meditation" book. Bodri said: "Go do some research and then you'll know yourself". I did the research, and now I do know.

Edited November 12, 2011 by vic

[konchog uma]

[vic]

[vic]

Another quote from William Bodri:

 

No one can succeed without merit, no one can receive help without merit. No one can even receive or hear about teachings without merit. That's how critical merit is ...

[vic]

[vic]

 

1. @vic, while i find Bodri's list of correspondences (above) noble, i am not sure that the taoist "refining shen to emptiness" and the vajrayana "opening the heart chakra" are the same as realizing emptiness (of self). I think that when one frees oneself of conceptions, one does not necessarily perceive the clear light or realize emptiness, unless perhaps this is the last skandha to be dissolved.

 

2. I have read that it is good to make a thorough and detailed map of one's world and worldview, and then laugh at it and throw it away.

 

 

 

With regard to (1), since it is out of thread topic, I refrain myself from commenting.

With regard to (2), that's right.

[konchog uma]

whether bodri was right on all those counts doesnt really matter to me. Except that i think one can refine shen to emptiness without realizing those buddhist concepts. Or maybe he's right.. like i said "im not sure" thats the key phrase.

 

i do white skeleton meditation every day at the end of my bone breathing. But i've never been good with all those concepts and models.

 

diffrent strokes for diffrent folks

 

best to you in your studies and practice

[vic]

Commenting on "deci belle" post here, I don't see anything wrong from your first word to your last word.

 

But,somehow something is missing. What is missing is difficult to be described with words, especially in the public website that can be accessed by the whole world.

 

The best I can do is (again) quote from Bodri's article/story, a story titled "The Boat Monk". Here is the link: http://www.meditationexpert.com/zen-buddhism-tao/z_boat-monk_teh-cheng.htm

 

----------- The Boat Monk -------------

 

I love the Zen story of the Boat monk. It expresses the Zen high literary style, and the beauty of the dharma.

 

Seems that a group of monks attained some degree of the Tao under a famous Zen teacher, Master Yao-shan. One of them was Teh-cheng and his dharma brothers were Yun-men and Tao-wu. Master Teh-cheng knew he didn't have the personality to teach a large number of people or run a monastery, so he told his brothers to send him someone of exceptional talent when they found one rather than open up a teaching center himself.

 

As is the rule, his job would also be to transmit the dharma to a qualified student if he could find one, but without a teaching center, he had no way to attract a student. Therefore his dharma brothers would have to send someone who had the karmic affinity with Teh-cheng for awakening. So he told them, "You know where I am staying. If you find a student of sharp potential, send him to me so that I may transmit the dharma."

 

Years later, it just so happened that Teh-cheng's dharma brother Tao-wu was attending a lecture by a famous monk, named Chia-shan, who already had a great following. Chia-shan knew all about the dharma and was extremely eloquent. He could respond to every question with the proper words, and yet he lacked the dharma eye...he lacked any true stage of attainment. Ask him any question and he could respond with the right words ... but without the dharma eye, everything was actually wrong because it could enlighten no one. He knew the words but did not know the real meaning -- he had not achieved it.

 

His case was like the intellectuals today who study the Bible, Koran, Buddhist sutras, Torah, or any such book or sets of books, know all the perfect words to use so that they sound as if they are in accord with the traditional teachings, and yet everything they say lacks any touch with True Reality. Why? Because those folks have no cultivation attainment themselves. They are dogma literalists rather than enlightened sages. So while they may be intellectually brilliant they are spiritually bereft, and cannot lead anyone to liberation.

 

That's the state of the world. That's 99.999999999999% of teachers and religious professionals out there.

 

So while attending the lecture, Master Tao-wu just kept himself quiet and concealed, but he snickered when Chia-shan answered a question correctly ... in order to attract attention. After it was over, Chia-shan respectfully approached master Tao-wu and asked what mistake he had made that his elder had done so.

 

Tao-wu replied, "You answered correctly, it's just that you've never been taught by a good teacher. I never explain things. If you want to learn, you must go to visit the boatman's place at the city of Hau-ting (where the Boatman Monk Teh-cheng was staying)."

 

Now because he really was interested in self-improvement, Chia-shan set off right away. This, in itself, shows he was of extraordinary character and not too full of himself. Chia-shan was right in theory, but did not have a real experience of the dharma, yet didn't know it. He thought he was right, but also suspected that he was wrong, that he was missing something though everything he said was correct and according to the scriptures. Amazingly, he was willing to take advice and was anxious to find the answer despite already being established and having a great reputation, so off he went.

 

Would you do that?

 

Now at the location, the dharma brother Teh-cheng had settled into a job ferrying people across a river, and had done so for several decades waiting for a good student. No one knew of his high stage of attainment. When the young monk arrived, with one look he knew that he had been cultivating and had some ability, but needed to be awakened to a true direct experience of the dharma. He needed a real, direct experience of the Tao. He knew all the right words, the sutras, the dharma and so forth, but he was clinging to all these explanations and his conceptualizations. He had become an intellectual master rather than reality master. He could not let go of them to realize no-self, no-ego, emptiness. Therefore he had not attained the Tao.

 

Upon meeting young master Chia-shan, who knew all the correct words but had no direct taste of reality, Teh-cheng opened up the conversation by asking, "What temple do you dwell in, oh virtuous one?"

 

Chia-shan answered with words that point to the Tao, though of course he did not have that stage of attainment: "I do not dwell in a temple. Dwelling is not like it."

 

Why did he say this? Because the original nature is not a state, and if you dwell or abide in any state it is NOT the Tao. Chia-shan was saying he understood the Tao by answering in such a way because a regular monk would simply have mentioned the name of his city or monastery.

 

The boatman then asked, "It is not like what?"

 

Chia-shan once again correctly answered the correct intellectual response, "It is not the phenomena before our eyes."

 

Because Chia-shan kept answering correctly, but without without possessing the true dharma experience himself, it was like someone who would respond with the right scriptural retort from the Bible ... though everything said was everything right and you could not find any fault with it, you could tell they were wrong. I'm sure you've had that experience because it is hard to explain.

 

A little bit disgusted at these canned responses, the Boat monk Teh-Cheng then asked, "Where did you learn all this (way of answering)?"

 

Chia-shan answered, "It is not something that the eyes or ears can reach," meaning it ultimately comes from the Tao. This time Chia-shan replied in such a way that you could take it as a smirk, with the hidden meaning being, "I know this and you don't? Who are you that you don't know these things?"

 

With that response, the Boatman monk then uttered a famous line, "A fitting sentence can be a stake that tethers a donkey for 10,000 aeons."

 

In other words, if you just cling to scripture, or intellectualization, or the words of this or that holy text without arriving at a genuine experience of the true meaning, if you don't experience the original nature, you will tie yourself up in ignorance (non-enlightenment) for aeons and never become free. Why? Because you cling to the intellect, in which case you are wrong. Words will not save you, scripture will not save you. Only cultivation practice and realization will save you!

 

How many people follow this pattern today? They quote the Torah and cling to it, all the while being correct in words, but WRONG. They cling to the Bible, reciting verses and sentences correctly, and yet they lack any attainment or any means for getting anywhere. They cling to the Koran, the Buddhist sutras, Taoist works and they are all wrong. They never fathom the meaning of the texts. They never reach enlightenment or samadhi or any genuine stage of attainment. They can talk about things all they want, but these are just intellectuals rather than spiritual leaders, people who know a lot about religious things but cannot lead you to the Tao. This is all you find today in churches, temples, mosques and monasteries. No one has the enlightenment eye, or even an inkling that it exists ... and they are even oblivious on how to get there.

 

"A fitting sentence can be a stake that tethers a donkey for 10,000 aeons" -- Master Teh-cheng was saying that Chia-shan was clinging to the dharma and relying on verbal tricks, and that this was stupid. It would get you absolutely nowhere on the path of true spiritual practice and striving and progress. It was just mental games, verbal tricks and memorization. REAL accomplishment comes from the cultivation practice of letting go and detaching from the realm of mentation to get to the substrate underneath it and EVERTHING.

 

"A fitting sentence can be a stake that tethers a donkey for 10,000 aeons" ... Chia-shan was stunned at this reply.

 

Zen master Teh-cheng then said, "The fishing line is hanging down a thousand feet, and the intent is deep in the pond. You're just three inches away from the hook. Why don't you say something?"

 

He was saying, "You've done so much meditation work your life and are so close you're ready to reach it. Why not say something expressing your original nature?"

 

Chia-shan was standing there, his mind emptied a bit because of the shock, and was just about to say something intellectual again when the Boat monk hit him with his oar and knocked him into the water.

 

Wham!

 

Chia-shan had just been ready to open his mouth again and say something that was in the scriptures when the Boat monk knocked the daylights out of him and he flew into the water.

 

As soon as Chia-shan's head popped up above the water again, the Boat monk once again shouted, "Speak! Speak!" and just as Chia-shan was about to open his mouth again, Wham! ... the Boat monk hit him again.

 

Now if you've had any sudden taste of emptiness where everything empties out (a religious experience), you can understand what happened next. Here's a man with a belly full of learning and it's all suddenly knocked out of him. He's been thrown into the water, he's worried for his life, and all his false thoughts have been whacked away.

 

That's the method the Boat monk used with Chia-shan.

 

Chia-shan could talk about anything in the dharma ... Consciousness only, the three Buddha bodies, skandhas, True Thusness, prajna wisdom, EVERYTHING. He understand all this but couldn't let go of it, so the Boat monk knocked him into the water to help him let go of everything he was clinging to. Even so, when asked to speak, Chia-shan was ready to spit out the dead scriptural words again, so Teh-cheng hit him again. When for the third time his head rose above the water, this time his mind had emptied out and he and become enlightened, so Chia-shan quickly nodded his head three times in quick succession to show Teh-cheng he had got it and he didn't need to be hit again.

 

Of course you cannot just hit someone to enlighten them. Don't think it's so easy. Chia-shan not only KNEW the dharma intellectually, but had spent his life meditating and had achieved some degree of emptiness, but just couldn't let go of his intellectualizations to see the path, to see the whole thing. He was close because of his previous attainments in meditation, but still clinging. He already had achieved a deep basis of cultivation beyond just studying, because of prolonged meditation work, and that basis is why Tao-wu sent him to the Boat monk. He was prepared....don't think someone can just whack you or slap you and you get it. Without countless years of meditation work, that would just get you a lawsuit today.

 

Master Teh-cheng was able to transmit the dharma only because Chia-shan had already spent years mixing practice with study. Master Teh-cheng was able, through the expedient means of whacking him, to help Master Chia-shan let go of everything and see the Path, see the Tao, realize self-enlightenment. If Master Chia-shan had not been a meditator, however, none of this would have been possible. So don't think that just studying scriptures and sutras -- of any kind -- will do it. You have to do the meditation work, open up your chi channels, chakras and so forth. You have to cultivate samadhi, but none of that is the Tao. It's just a preparation because those are all still illusory realms and false stations. They are not ultimate or supreme. They are there to help you clear out in a progressive sense, but when you reach enlightenment there are no stages -- you just let go of everything in one fell swoop. That's why it's called breaking through the conception skandha.

 

Upon being hit with the oar when in the water, Chia-shan GOT IT. His years of preparation and study, together with the Boatman's excellent skillful means, enabled him to let go, empty out and see the Tao. If you know the theory, that's why the story is so beautiful, so wonderful. But then, while still in the water, Chia-shan asked, "If you throw away the hook and line, what is your intent, teacher?"

 

In other words, Chia-shan then had doubts and asked about functioning. He was asking, "What about the methods for making an effort in the realm of existence if everything is empty... What do you do about them?"

 

Master Teh-cheng replied, "The fishing line hangs in the water, floating to set the meaning of existence and non-existence." In other words, don't talk of emptiness and don't talk of existence. Neither is right, and thus you don't cling to either and you can do what you want independently. You are free and liberated. Cause and effect still operates amidst phenomena, but you do not cling to them or the process. You realize the inherent fundamental emptiness of phenomena but you do not cling to it either. You are independent and free.

 

Master Chia-shan then said, "Words carry the mystery but they have no road. The tongue speaks without speaking." In other words, speaking is the same as non-speaking, emptiness and existence are equivalent to one another.

 

Master Teh-cheng was VERY happy at hearing this because then he knew Chia-shan had got it. He knew that Chia-shan had finally realized the Truth and was speaking from experience rather than from some scripture he had memorized and studied. So Teh-cheng then said, "After having fished through all these rivers [having piloted this ferry day after day for decades wanting to carry someone over to the other side], I have finally encountered a golden carp [enlightened person].

 

Chia-shan covered his ears at hearing this, and master Teh-shan said in response, "That's right, that's right!"

 

Then he told Chia-shan, "From now on you must leave no tracks where you hide yourself. But you must not hide yourself where there are no tracks."

 

He expressed in a high literary style many meanings: that Chia-shan must continually cultivate that state of no-thought/emptiness he had just achieved wherein there are no tracks. Furthermore, he must go somewhere where no one knew who he was, and leave his fame behind, and thus go into hiding in order to finish his cultivation. He also said that Chia-shan must not remain clinging to emptiness either, for that was also wrong.

 

The Boat monk then continued, "I was with Zen master Yao-shan for 30 years and I only took away this which you have just experienced/realized. Nothing more. You have just attained it. This is the meaning of all the teachings and nothing more. It's nothing else either than experientially realizing this. In the future you should not live in towns or villages but go deep into the mountains, find one or two people to continue the teaching and do not let it be cut off."

 

Chia-shan was out of the water by this time, and since the dharma had been transmitted, he started off to return home. The whole thing happened just this quickly, the dharma had been passed, and there was nothing more to be done. But for a moment Master Chia-shan doubted that was all and so he turned around, wandering if there was something else he was missing, if it all came to just this?

 

Upon seeing this, Zen master Teh-cheng shouted back to him, holding up an oar and saying, "Did you think there was something else?" Then he capsized the boat and disappeared under the water to show there was nothing else. You see, if you cling to all the pageantry of Tibetan Buddhism, you are wrong. It's just an expedient method created to help you REALIZE THIS. If you cling to the Torah or Bible, you are wrong. It's just to help you lay a foundation so you can experientially realize this. Nothing in the universe is absolute. The wind, the rocks, the flowers are all singing the dharma to help you awaken.

 

The meaning of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, yoga, alchemy and all the religions is to realize our fundamental nature. All the ceremonies, scriptures, prayers, and practices are to enable you to experientially realize THIS. That's the purpose of all the scriptures.

 

What else did you think it was about? Some ceremony or special belief?

 

Now you finally know. Cultivate!

 

------------ End ------------

 

 

Even Zen starts from the stage of "Accumulation of Wisdom and Merit" (the stage of study), the first of the 5 general stages. An enlightened individual (with Dharma Eye) such as William Bodri knows the appropriate answer to give to "an elementary school student, a high-school student, a university student, a graduate student, a master". Bodri's words are sometimes harsh and insulting, but his chi (at the quality of purified 6th and 7th consciousness) (while we read his articles) is doing salvation, perhaps very much like a holy sutra.

 

My question in this thread is a question at the first stage (the stage of study).

[deci belle]

But,somehow something is missing. What is missing is difficult to be described with words, especially in the public website that can be accessed by the whole world

This is a whole world inaccessible to the whole world. Virtue seems incomplete yet therein is sufficiency. "Don't know" was the reply. What is "not knowing" is not difficult, only wordless.