[TTC Study] Chapter 79 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 79

 

John Wu

 

When a great wound is healed,

There will still remain a scar.

Can this be a desirable state of affairs?

Therefore, the Sage, holding the left-hand tally,

Performs his part of the covenant,

But lays no claims upon others.

The virtuous attends to his duties;

The virtueless knows only to levy duties upon the people.

The Way of Heaven has no private affections,

But always accords with the good.

 

 

English/Feng

 

After a bitter quarrel, some resentment must remain.

What can one do about it?

Therefore the sage keeps his half of the bargain

But does not exact his due.

A man of Virtue performs his part,

But a man without Virtue requires others to fulfill their obligations.

The Tao of heaven is impartial.

It stays with good men all the time.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

To make peace where there has been great resentment, there is bound to be resentment left over.

How could this be regarded as good?

Therefore the Sage [holds] the right tally yet makes no demands of others.

For this reason, those who have virtue are in charge of the tally;

Those without virtue are in charge of the taxes.

The Way of Heaven has no favorites,

It's always with the good man.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[Marblehead]

Well, yeah, I have two comments.

 

I think that this chapter speaks to what we have been talking about in the "Love" thread. That is, not putting our expectations on others. We do what "we" have to do and leave others to do what "they" have to do.

 

The other thought is to the last two lines.

 

English/Feng:

The Tao of heaven is impartial.

It stays with good men all the time.

 

That almost sounds like a paradox. We first say Tao is impartial but then say it stays with the good man. Why is this? I think it is because the good man already has Tao (the Way) within therefore there is no need for partialiality from Tao.

[XieJia]

Observation:

da 大 (great) is used here...

The MWD A text have the different character in the Sage's sentence; noting by Henrick's and John Wu's translation. (Left/Right tallies).

 

Rhetorical Questions:

What is Great Resentment?

Why isn't it good to have this resentment?

Do Virtuous Man have this resentment?

 

Possibly leading and erroneous comments - Highlight to read:

Great Resentment imho is resentment towards Heaven.

Taking in the context of the previous chapters;

The Sage uses the '有德' manifested virtue to persevere/protect (I used from the 介 MWD A),

uses the '無德' Formless Virtue to lead men (徹夫).

By thus the Sage nurture that of the life and doesn't go against the Way of Heaven (As we understood from few previous chapters).

Virtuos Man don't resent Heaven...

Edited October 12, 2011 by XieJia

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 79

1. After settling a big dispute,

2. One must be ended up with a grudge.

3. If one repays a resentment with virtue,

4. How can it be considered that was a good settlement?

5. Therefore, the sage just keep the left portion(1) of the contract.

6. And he was not willing to execute the contact to collect the debts from others.

7. A virtuous person seems to have great tolerance by holding on to the contract.

8. A non-virtuous person seems to be lack of sympathy as a tax collector.

9. The fundamental principle has no nepotism.

10. It's always stays with a kind person.

 

Notes:

(1) In the ancient time, a contract was carved on two pieces of board, the left and the right copies. The left portion was designated for the loaner, and the right portion was for the borrower.

 

第七十九章

1. 和 大 怨 ,

2. 必 有 餘 怨 。

3. 報怨以得,

4. 安 可 以 為 善?

5. 是 以 聖 人 執 左 契 ,

6. 而 不 責 於 人 。

7. 有 德 司 契 ,

8. 無 德 司 徹 。

9. 天 道 無 親

10. 常 與 善 人 。

Edited January 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[XieJia]

In the ancient time, a contract was carved on two pieces of board, the left and the right copies. The left portion was designated for the loaner, and the right portion was for the borrower.

 

Nice symbology Chidragon;

 

Question,

Why would Sage hold on to it?

[Jeff]

Nice symbology Chidragon;

 

Question,

Why would Sage hold on to it?

 

A Sage honors his commitments, but does not feel the need to enforce them on others. A Sage gives, but does not expect/need anything in return.

 

[ChiDragon]

XieJia....

 

I think Jeff answered your question.

 

Thanks. Jeff.....

[Marblehead]

Rhetorical Questions:

What is Great Resentment?

 

Well, I will respond to it anyhow. Hehehe.

 

Resentment from having lost. Resentment from having to follow someone else's rules.

 

When a guy makes a mistake and his wife says she forgives him but everytime she gets peed at him she reminds him of the mistake he made. (That was a personal observation. Hehehe.)

[Marblehead]

A Sage honors his commitments, but does not feel the need to enforce them on others. A Sage gives, but does not expect/need anything in return.

 

 

 

Yep. That was a good response.

[lienshan]

But Confucius could have been parroting Lao Tzu. Hehehe.

Let's continue the who is parroting who here

 

The other thought is to the last two lines.

 

English/Feng:

The Tao of heaven is impartial.

It stays with good men all the time.

These two last lines occur too in Shuo Yuan's collection of confucian texts no. 24

 

I haven't read/translated no. 24 yet, but have looked at Shuo Yuan's confucian text no. 17

Only difference is that it begins with 天地 'heaven earth' instead of 天道 'heaven tao'

The most interesting passage in my way of rough translation:

 

heaven and earth have no preference

forever along with the good man

heaven and tao have preference

did not let Yao survive

did not let Jie be murdered

 

(Yao was a pre-Xiadynasty SageKing and Jie the last ShangTyrant commiting suicide)

 

善人 'good man' is explained in this Legge translated Mengzi text

Edited October 12, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Yep. There for sure thoughts and ideas that have existed from before the written word. Once writing was discovered many tried in their own way to express these thoughts.

 

And, of course, the background of the translator has a lot to do with it too. Some translators had a strong background in Christianity or Buddhism and we can oftentimes see this in their translations.

 

Only those who can read the ancient Chinese have a second hand connection with the originals but even those have been re-written and likely modified along the way.

 

So we try to understand so that we can apply the concepts in our own personal life.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Says a lot about minding our own business and attending to the dictates of our own virtue rather than making our path merely that of condemning faults in others.

[Marblehead]

Says a lot about minding our own business and attending to the dictates of our own virtue rather than making our path merely that of condemning faults in others.

 

You can say that again.

 

(Well, actually, you just did with a little help from me. Hehehe.)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You can say that again.

 

(Well, actually, you just did with a little help from me. Hehehe.)

 

"That is, not putting our expectations on others. We do what "we" have to do and leave others to do what "they" have to do."

 

Yeah, true.. whoops!

 

three times a charm.

[XieJia]

@Jeff

Thank you for a nice post.

 

 

@Chidragon

(Hey CD, may I ask where did you get your 3rd line from? I can't seem to locate it)

 

@Marblehead

 

Anyone see anymore dimension to this text? If yes please share .

 

(Going off topic:)

From my observation, the theme nicely echoes throughout the Zhuangzi like where Yen Huei's conversation with Master Kong (Confucius) about his departure to Wei.

[Marblehead]

@Marblehead

 

Anyone see anymore dimension to this text? If yes please share .

 

No. I don't wanna' share!

 

Hehehe.

 

Actually, the chapter holds another political theme.

 

That is, when a people are conquered they are already going to be resentful. Why add more pain to the people by imposing unfair duties on them?

[lienshan]

The last lines of Shuo Yuan 10.24 collected by Liu Xiang 77-6 BC :

 

His large river and yellow river lead that which are 100 mountainstreams using their humble below.

The Tao of heaven has no preference. It's always along with good men.

Be aware! Be aware!

Confucius did earlier tell the disciples:

"Remember!

This doctrine is only mean and focus on the feeling of duty.

We should be very careful,

as if we were on the brink of a deep gulf,

as if we were treading on thin ice.

Walk the road like this.

Doesn't openmouthed meet misfortune?"

 

Interesting to see a confucian bibliographer point to Tao Teh Ching chapter 66 and quote the two last lines of chapter 79, which seem to have been the most painful to the confucian asses

 

Laozi defines the term 'a good man' in his chapter 27:

 

善人者不善人之師 - that which is a good man is the teacher of a not good man

不善人者善人之資 - that which is a not good man is the property of a good man

 

That'll say 'a good man' is subjective

Edited October 13, 2011 by lienshan

[Jeff]

No. I don't wanna' share!

 

Hehehe.

 

Actually, the chapter holds another political theme.

 

That is, when a people are conquered they are already going to be resentful. Why add more pain to the people by imposing unfair duties on them?

 

Good point about conquered people.

 

It also is talking about the calming of the mind. The great wound or bitter quarrel is the moving past the Ego. He is saying that even after you experience/feel Tao, that the mind/Ego will still flare up. Don't sweat it and keep moving forward towards the Tao (or Way) of Heaven.

 

[XieJia]

Nice to see how the DDJ can be applicable to many situations.

 

My example is similar to that of Jeff; it's regard to the mind.

 

In martial art, the flow of the present have to be maintain.

Even when got hit, one needs to change and react according.

While keeping the mind/heart in check.

The good martial artist never anticipate or expect;

the one takes/dodge the blow and move on without setting any traps for oneself; the Qi flows freely.

The lesser martial artist depends on schemes/wit;

he anticipates and get pumped up when hit or pressured; he blocks up his own Qi.

 

May all be Well;

 

[ChiDragon]

@Chidragon

(Hey CD, may I ask where did you get your 3rd line from? I can't seem to locate it)

 

Chapter 63 - The Lowest to the Highest Extreme

1. With an attitude of Wu Wei,

2. Handle all affairs with no interference,

3. Taste the tasteless as a delicacy.

4. Large becomes small, more becomes less,

5. 報怨以德(If one repays a resentment with virtue,)。 <<<<(out of context)

6. Handle the hardest start with the easiest;

 

Chapter 79

1. After settling a big dispute,

2. One must be ended up with a grudge.

3. If one repays a resentment with virtue, <<< Moved from Chapter 63.

4. How can it be considered that was a good settlement?

 

Some of the knowledgeable native scholars had thought that the line 3 was out of place in Chapter 63 which belongs to Chapter 79. It seems like that line 5, in Chapter 63 doesn't link to the logic within context. Indeed, without line 3 in the first four lines of Chapter 79, it seems like there was missing link somewhere.

 

 

Chapter 63

1. 為無為，

2. 事無事，

3. 味無味。

4. 大小多少，

5. 報怨以德。 <<<(out of context)

6. 圖難于其易﹔

 

第七十九章

1. 和 大 怨 ,

2. 必 有 餘 怨 。

3. 報怨以得, <<<(within context)

4. 安 可 以 為 善?

[lienshan]

Chapter 63

1. 為無為，

2. 事無事，

3. 味無味。

4. 大小多少，

5. 報怨以德。(out of context)

6. 圖難于其易﹔

7. 為大于其細。

8. 天下難事，

9. 必作于易﹔

10.天下大事，

11.必作于細。

12.是以聖人終不為大，

13.故能成其大。

14.夫輕諾必寡信，

15.多易必多難。

16.是以聖人猶難之，

17.故終無難矣。

All characters in red are "out of context" that'll say a textual additon to the Guodian chapter 63

 

To say "out of context" is tricky because nobody knows if Laozi himself made the addition?

I've myself no problem with reading the chapter 79 without "native scholarly" additions:

 

Peace and great resentment surely have surplus resentment.

How can one be considered good?

Therefore does the sage keep the debit entry yet not in debt to a man.

One has Teh managing a debit entry.

One has no Teh managing an oral contract.

The Tao of heaven has no preference.

It does always go along with good men.

Edited October 13, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

lienshan...

LaoTze left a message to be interpreted and evaluated by those who are alive. I got a feeling that you are telling me that you are not alive....

[lienshan]

I got a feeling that you are telling me that you are not alive....

Do not trust your feelings ... stick to the written words!

 

That's his message in this chapter

[Jeff]

MH,

 

I think it is time to move on to 80.

 

[Marblehead]

 

Interesting to see a confucian bibliographer point to Tao Teh Ching chapter 66 and quote the two last lines of chapter 79, which seem to have been the most painful to the confucian asses

 

Hehehe. I am sure there was a lot of Tao in Confucius.