Taoism and Karma

[Kali Yuga]

I was wondering for all you experienced "taoists" out there.. What does Taoism have to say about karma? Does it actually have a belief of karma and rebirth due to karma? or is it just that a bunch of hippy "new-agers" have mixed it up with hinduist and buddhist doctrines, and said that it does teach about karma when it might have not? What is the taoist belief of karma as well as the belief about life after death and reaincarnation?

 

Love to hear from you fellas.

 

Kali

[Protector]

Giving labels to things takes away their power. Saying bad things about new-age stuff will blind you to all the good things in it. Taoism covers practically everything and from my perspective it describes how the things work in the universe. Even before the word Dao was imagined and spoken, people were already trying to understand it and before they were born, follow it. A lot of Taoist arts were labeled as new-age and new-age as bad. The whole "new-age" community, like Taoism, became a collection of knowledge and that knowledge became corrupted by people why try to profit from it. Making at judgment hurt everyone, don't judge.

 

Karma is also known but it's not as simple to understand. Imagine a still pond and a first raindrop falling in it. It will make ripples and soon there will be rain and maybe a storm that will make each raindrop make ripples that will get in the way of other ripples. Imagine these raindrops as people, doing their thing not really noticing each other until their ripples collide. Someone might think the ripples are good and some think they are bad, but in the big picture it doesn't make a difference. We look at the ripples but we know about the storm. Think of all the good and bad things in your life and remember the storm.

 

Keep zooming out from the storm and you will see the time when there was not raindrop and no storm, there was not body, no time, no memory, no nothing. Keep zooming out and see person who just died being born. Someone who is not born already lived a full life. Dead and alive people living at the same time. Keep looking and there will be nothing but Tao. There's a meditation that shows you that and it's based of the time one of the Duddhas realized that he had a little time on this earth and he would die without knowing all the joys the world has. He found a way and taught it, but just telling it makes it worthless. If you can figure it out yourself, it will be your treasure. There's a Zen temple where you are shown a picture of the 1000 Buddhas and told to recreate it. Everyone starts drawing.

[Kali Yuga]

Giving labels to things takes away their power. Saying bad things about new-age stuff will blind you to all the good things in it. Taoism covers practically everything and from my perspective it describes how the things work in the universe. Even before the word Dao was imagined and spoken, people were already trying to understand it and before they were born, follow it. A lot of Taoist arts were labeled as new-age and new-age as bad. The whole "new-age" community, like Taoism, became a collection of knowledge and that knowledge became corrupted by people why try to profit from it. Making at judgment hurt everyone, don't judge.

 

Karma is also known but it's not as simple to understand. Imagine a still pond and a first raindrop falling in it. It will make ripples and soon there will be rain and maybe a storm that will make each raindrop make ripples that will get in the way of other ripples. Imagine these raindrops as people, doing their thing not really noticing each other until their ripples collide. Someone might think the ripples are good and some think they are bad, but in the big picture it doesn't make a difference. We look at the ripples but we know about the storm. Think of all the good and bad things in your life and remember the storm.

 

Keep zooming out from the storm and you will see the time when there was not raindrop and no storm, there was not body, no time, no memory, no nothing. Keep zooming out and see person who just died being born. Someone who is not born already lived a full life. Dead and alive people living at the same time. Keep looking and there will be nothing but Tao. There's a meditation that shows you that and it's based of the time one of the Duddhas realized that he had a little time on this earth and he would die without knowing all the joys the world has. He found a way and taught it, but just telling it makes it worthless. If you can figure it out yourself, it will be your treasure. There's a Zen temple where you are shown a picture of the 1000 Buddhas and told to recreate it. Everyone starts drawing.

 

Taoism is not new-age. Taoism is Taoism. I think the failure you make here is that you fail to make a distinction where as here I do. I am not interested in what is the amalgamation of entirely different cultures, traditions from very different backgrounds. I'm not interested in someone's personal belief about what it is or what it should be. I am interested in this single tradition alone. Hence why I am asking about Taoism alone, and not about what someone is trying to correlate based on their own prejudices like some hack who thinks that the I-Ching and 2012 are connected through prophecy etc.

 

I know the good and bad about the new-age, I have been there, so you don't have to try and tell me about it. I do know however, that in the "new-age" there is a lot of unnecessary mixture of tradition and belief in such a manner as to put to shame the original pregenitors of the traditions. A bunch of mexicans doing peyote in the middle of the desert's traditions are not the same as a Taoist monk's monastic traditions. Even though they might have similarities, they will also have very large differences in their world-view and beliefs, hence why I think it is a disgrace to just mix and mash anything that suits your fancy with no regard for how the old tradition viewed it. There is much distinction between different traditions, and that is what "new-agers" so often fail to grasp, hence why I am asking for something explicitly Taoist and not something that is Buddhist, new-age or anything Castaneda-ish because that's not what I'm looking for.

 

I am not talking about Buddhism. I am talking about Taoism. I'm not interested in hearing about Buddhist scripture. Please quote something from Taoist scripture or canon to back up your belief.

[Protector]

All right let's see uhhh...

 

Once upon a time there was a farmer who lived alone. When it was almost winter, his only horse ran away. The villagers thought he was cursed and wont survive the winter. A few days later his horse returned and brought more horses with it. Villagers said that he was blessed but he just replied, "Good luck bad luck, I don't know." The farmer and his son worked on the farm one day and one of the horses kicked the son and he wasn't able to work. Villagers said he was cursed. Later on a war started, all the young men were taken to war except farmer's son who was too hurt to go to war. The villagers said the farmer was blessed but he just replied, "Good luck bad luck, I don't know." Farmer's son once confronted him about what happened and asked why wont he feel happy or sad.

 

"Good luck bad luck, I don't know."

 

Good luck bad luck finding out from what lineage this story is from and keeping your studies pure Daoist.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The principles are there, knowing that non-virtue separates the spirit from Tao. Also, in speaking of Nature's force of balance and evening out everything, as seen in numerous things including yin & yang reverting to each other and how "order will prevail" by following the way of The Tao.

 

edit:

 

Another intersting part of karma that I've been thinking about a lot recently, is how our actions become habits. The idea of Right View in Buddhism being in regards to the right understanding of Self. When we act in egotistical ways, we continue the habit of seeing self in such way. Especially coming from a North American high school, one might realize the habit of acting in this way that has been accumulated by past actions of doing so, and so stopping to do so is the beginning of the karma wash.

 

Taoists fully understand the errors of pride,vanity,conceit,selfishness which separate us from Tao, and they also understand the nature of habit.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

800th post

 

Thank you everyone And I feel better for it!

[Protector]

800th post

 

Thank you everyone And I feel better for it!

 

I hope other 799 were as useful as this one

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I hope other 799 were as useful as this one

 

For you.. Definitely...

[ChiDragon]

I was wondering for all you experienced "taoists" out there..

 

1. What does Taoism have to say about karma?

2. Does it actually have a belief of karma and rebirth due to karma? or is it just that a bunch of hippy "new-agers" have mixed it up with hinduist and buddhist doctrines, and said that it does teach about karma when it might have not?

3. What is the taoist belief of karma as well as the belief about life after death and reincarnation?

 

Love to hear from you fellas.

 

Kali

 

To the best of my knowledge:

1. If one study about Taoism, then one must isolate oneself from Buddhism and all others. Hence, karma is a Buddhist term, then the Taoist has nothing to do with it.

 

2. Taoist only concern with the present life but not like a Buddhist. A Buddhist concerns his life with the past, present and future.

 

3. Same as above.

Edited October 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[mjjbecker]

[deci belle]

[XieJia]

Sinfest; I like what you said about the pond and the good luck, bad luck thingy.

You'd really like your horses aren't you? Anyway, I like them too.

 

Deci,

due to some karmic barrier force me to skim your words but well said.

 

Chi,

(I don't know what to say; lets get back to translating)

 

Kali,

Just drive in and swim;

good swimmer don't think much of water.

Neither does bird think about air.

Enjoy the calm and the torrent;

don't depend too much on anything.

 

Well what am I to say, what is there for me to say; I am just a bookworm.

 

Good Weekend!

[XieJia]

Oh my bad; Double posted

Edited October 15, 2011 by XieJia

[Kali Yuga]

I was not asking for personal advice as so many of you have given. I merely am curious to what the tradition of Taoism has to say about karma and reincarnation and if it believed in such things, to what extent. No more, no less.

[Marblehead]

800th post

 

Thank you everyone And I feel better for it!

 

You look better for it too!

[Marblehead]

I was not asking for personal advice as so many of you have given. I merely am curious to what the tradition of Taoism has to say about karma and reincarnation and if it believed in such things, to what extent. No more, no less.

 

Hehehe. We all here love to share. If we think we can help someone we try to help. (Never mind that you didn't ask. Hehehe.)

 

Karma is basically cause and effect with many attachments. Hehehe.

 

Taoism teaches cause and effect. It did not, until Buddhist arrived in China, include the concept of past life and next life.

 

Lao Tzu never spoke to the subject. Chuang Tzu toyed with it but really never really made any declarations, only asked the questions.

 

However, the inclusion of Karma goes way back before the 'new age' Taoism. You need only look at Religious Taoism and especially Zen.

 

I, personally, hold to the original 'cause and effect' concept but Karma has no place in my belief system.

[ChiDragon]

I was not asking for personal advice as so many of you have given. I merely am curious to what the tradition of Taoism has to say about karma and reincarnation and if it believed in such things, to what extent. No more, no less.

 

That was my exact answer per your request. My concern was to give you the answer as impartial and accurate as I could.

 

The tradition of Taoism do not believed in such thing as karma.

 

 

Edited to add:

Assuming that we are talking a Taoist in the traditional Taoist religion without any external influence, his main concern was to have a good health for longevity and to be an immortal during his present life. He has not mentioned any thoughts about karma or reincarnation.

 

 

@deci belle...

I hope I have cleared myself on this.

Edited October 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[XieJia]

I was not asking for personal advice as so many of you have given. I merely am curious to what the tradition of Taoism has to say about karma and reincarnation and if it believed in such things, to what extent. No more, no less.

 

We all are trying to give you the answer you seek; perhaps you are not used to things being said indirectly.

But that's ok.

Like Marblehead said, Chuang Tzu played it. Laozi mentioned it with silence.

You ever wonder why the Daoist practice Wuwei?

 

 

 

 

@Marblehead

Thanks for sharing Marble

 

 

Let me quote TzuJanLi here; hope he doesn't mind

 

clarity

 

Be Well,

[C T]

That was my exact answer per your request. My concern was to give you the answer as impartial and accurate as I could.

 

The tradition of Taoism do not believed in such thing as karma.

 

I hope I have cleared myself on this.

It seems you are not willing to view the tradition thru the eyes of millions of Chinese Taoists... all of whom place prime emphasis on ancestral worship, and also place almost as vital an emphasis on elaborate rituals sought for deceased family members (sparing no expenses in the process) to get Taoist priests to intercede for the dead to ensure 'a comfortable life' in the hereafter. Just this observation alone is enough to convince that Chinese Taoists, going back generations, hold to the belief of Karma more than any other culture in the world today. The fact that they do not use the exact word Karma does not in any way imply they do not superstitiously belief in fear of Retribution, which is as far as the lay Chinese understanding of Karma goes. There is more, but 'more' is not necessary to be discussed here, nor elsewhere, for that matter. Alas, more than enough has already been plundered repeatedly, 'elsewhere'...

[Protector]

I was not asking for personal advice as so many of you have given. I merely am curious to what the tradition of Taoism has to say about karma and reincarnation and if it believed in such things, to what extent. No more, no less.

 

Looks like you're learning a lot about bad karma

[Birch]

Well the wu-wei thing could point to naturally resolving. I think it does but i have a hard time explaining why. It's like there's no "decided" course of action but action (included non-action) nevertheless springs forth with no effort. Whereas action from decision or effort points to something created. Oh I'm not getting at it very well but in experience there are feelings that go with this stuff. Karma comes into being at all points at which there is this created effort IME and disappears in wu-wei which is why IMO karma seems so unfathomable. It's non-linear.

I don't believe that reincarnation is necessary for it either.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It should be pointed out that Buddhists ultimately try to eliminate karma so that they can eliminate rebirth and be one with Nirvana (excuse the terminology). This is why in my earlier post I mentioned how un-virtue separates one from Tao, since the goal of Taoists is generally to be one with Tao after they have left the earth. If Taoists do not have the required virtue then they will not be able to do this.

 

Chan and Zen Buddhism, especially, also have many writings which say that karma(accumulated demerit or habits) can be eliminated in one fowl swoop so long as one stays in their Original Mind, so I think this agrees with the Taoist view of reaching "one with the Tao" permanently without getting pulled down by retribution.

[Marblehead]

It seems you are not willing to view the tradition thru the eyes of millions of Chinese Taoists... all of whom place prime emphasis on ancestral worship, and also place almost as vital an emphasis on elaborate rituals sought for deceased family members (sparing no expenses in the process) to get Taoist priests to intercede for the dead to ensure 'a comfortable life' in the hereafter. Just this observation alone is enough to convince that Chinese Taoists, going back generations, hold to the belief of Karma more than any other culture in the world today. The fact that they do not use the exact word Karma does not in any way imply they do not superstitiously belief in fear of Retribution, which is as far as the lay Chinese understanding of Karma goes. There is more, but 'more' is not necessary to be discussed here, nor elsewhere, for that matter. Alas, more than enough has already been plundered repeatedly, 'elsewhere'...

 

In the first half of your post you are totally correct. But I think you have made a bad connection between the concepts of Ancestoral worship and Karma.

 

Retribution, for a Taoist is 'cause and effect', not karma.

 

But yeah, keep posting and I will totally agree with you whenever I can. Hehehe.

[XieJia]

Interestingly Karma in Sanskrit actually means 'Action'.

 

be mindfully forgetful

 

XJ

[ChiDragon]

It seems you are not willing to view the tradition thru the eyes of millions of Chinese Taoists... all of whom place prime emphasis on ancestral worship, and also place almost as vital an emphasis on elaborate rituals sought for deceased family members (sparing no expenses in the process) to get Taoist priests to intercede for the dead to ensure 'a comfortable life' in the hereafter.

 

Just this observation alone is enough to convince that Chinese Taoists, going back generations, hold to the belief of Karma more than any other culture in the world today. The fact that they do not use the exact word Karma does not in any way imply they do not superstitiously belief in fear of Retribution, which is as far as the lay Chinese understanding of Karma goes. There is more, but 'more' is not necessary to be discussed here, nor elsewhere, for that matter. Alas, more than enough has already been plundered repeatedly, 'elsewhere'...

 

I believe that you had been confused with the Buddhist philosophy and mixed in with Taoist. The Taoist belief was emphasized to be an immortal before anything else. The part of ritual was mainly performed by Buddhists to remove the sins of the deceased, so the deceased will have a clean life to start with after reincarnation. That was all done with a recognizable fee. Some place along the line, some greedy Taoist priests designed to follow this footstep.

 

BTW A Taoist believes to be an immortal was, mainly, not to be concerned with the present life and after death. If one study about the Taoist religion, then the key word "immortal" cannot be ignored. Otherwise, one was studying something else other than the Taoist religion.

 

 

@ Marblehead...

Edited October 15, 2011 by ChiDragon