Taoism and Karma

[ChiDragon]

fiveelementtao...

 

Thanks for your time and effort. I am sorry. I have no traceability to correlate to the information that was presented in front of me. However, I have no intention to fight anything as you had thought that I was doing. I was just tried to present my side of the story. In the middle of the discussion, I'd realized that the discrepancy was so vast between our thoughts. Then, I wanted to put a pause to continue with my share and decided to hear more from you. Finally, at this point, I think our discussion have driven into a cul-de-sac. I wish to discuss further but there was no lead way. Therefore, I wish not to proceed any further and rest my case....

[konchog uma]

Action/reaction is the linear understanding most people are used to. It's understandable that Buddha and other spiritual teachers would have described things in that manner for the majority.

 

Resonance is definitely a better description though. The process of improving one's resonance can be quite painful however, just that the detox affect can happen during meditation, instead of affecting your finances and other external issues. >.<

 

i think that the idea of resonance is at the heart of karma. But i think the word "karma" means "action" and is linked to a lot of cause and effect thought. I think both ways are valid ways to try to understand karma, as its not a concept that is very easy to pin down.

[dwai]

Well the wu-wei thing could point to naturally resolving. I think it does but i have a hard time explaining why. It's like there's no "decided" course of action but action (included non-action) nevertheless springs forth with no effort. Whereas action from decision or effort points to something created. Oh I'm not getting at it very well but in experience there are feelings that go with this stuff. Karma comes into being at all points at which there is this created effort IME and disappears in wu-wei which is why IMO karma seems so unfathomable. It's non-linear.

I don't believe that reincarnation is necessary for it either.

Wu wei is what is known as nishkama karma (aka action without desire for the fruits of action) in hinduism. Acting contrary to how action is done takes the karmic entanglement out of the picture.

[Owledge]

Maybe that which is called "karma" is too obvious and trivial for Taoists to give it a separate name.

Or maybe it is so little a part of the whole that it's not worth naming, because it would divert attention from all the other things happening in the universe.

Just random thoughts.

[Birch]

Well, why bother giving such things names? My figuring is that if you name something, you're trying to gain some kind of mastery over it. Implications!

[Birch]

Wu wei is what is known as nishkama karma (aka action without desire for the fruits of action) in hinduism. Acting contrary to how action is done takes the karmic entanglement out of the picture.

 

Hmm, is it the same thing? I guess from what you're saying it is (as much as an 'is' is:-)) Anyway, don't most people take action towards some kind of fruit? Or to avoid something? Otherwise they wouldn't. I suggest there's always a reason, even if the reason is wrong. I know 'desire' gets a bad rap in the buddhist canon, but isn't it one of the few things that keeps us alive when all other signs would tend to point to an early shuffle off this plane?

 

OT alert

---

 

So knowing this, just substitute a fruit of desire for a fake fruit and you gotcha monkey

 

----

 

Still, I kind of sort of can 'get' what you're pointing to. Perhaps a gap between whatever the desire was based upon and what's 'really' going on? So in practice, you're acting based on 'old news'?

 

This stuff has a bunch of horrible ramifications IMO.

[konchog uma]

Hmm, is it the same thing? I guess from what you're saying it is (as much as an 'is' is:-)) Anyway, don't most people take action towards some kind of fruit? Or to avoid something? Otherwise they wouldn't. I suggest there's always a reason, even if the reason is wrong. I know 'desire' gets a bad rap in the buddhist canon, but isn't it one of the few things that keeps us alive when all other signs would tend to point to an early shuffle off this plane?

 

In toltec shamanism ala Carlos Casteneda, there is a concept of doing things for the sake of doing them, not being focused on the outcome, but on investing oneself wholly in the action at hand in order to manifest the best, whatever that may be.

 

[Kali Yuga]

5ET, do you have any specific daoist texts referring to this concept of karma and/or rebirth? since you're talking about the "shanching" sect here.

 

It would be nice to read something in a specific text relating to this. i haven't read anything stating something to the effect of "and he was reborn and then became an immortal throguh the grace of the gods etc" within any texts that I have read, but then again they may be in some more obscure texts that I don't know of.

[dwai]

Hmm, is it the same thing? I guess from what you're saying it is (as much as an 'is' is:-)) Anyway, don't most people take action towards some kind of fruit? Or to avoid something? Otherwise they wouldn't. I suggest there's always a reason, even if the reason is wrong. I know 'desire' gets a bad rap in the buddhist canon, but isn't it one of the few things that keeps us alive when all other signs would tend to point to an early shuffle off this plane?

 

OT alert

---

 

So knowing this, just substitute a fruit of desire for a fake fruit and you gotcha monkey

 

----

 

Still, I kind of sort of can 'get' what you're pointing to. Perhaps a gap between whatever the desire was based upon and what's 'really' going on? So in practice, you're acting based on 'old news'?

 

This stuff has a bunch of horrible ramifications IMO.

 

There is a whole field of practice called karma yoga. Those who follow it perform actions towards whAtever goal but dont fixate on the imagined results of the action. So when the opportunity to perform an action arises, they do it to the best of their ability and dont waste energy on dreaming about or lusting after the results. If the action is done impeccably, the fruit will automatically come. In the same vein, they dont pine after things tht they havent got because the action didnt bear fruit

 

Tht is wu wei...not trying to go against the natural flow of things and not worrying too much about thr reuslts. The results will come if the work done is aligned with the natural course of the universe

[Birch]

In toltec shamanism ala Carlos Casteneda, there is a concept of doing things for the sake of doing them, not being focused on the outcome, but on investing oneself wholly in the action at hand in order to manifest the best, whatever that may be.

 

 

Hmm. I dunno. I suppose it does remind of that Polish (I think) guy's idea of 'flow' .

 

Maybe it would be helpful if we were reminded of 'wu' and 'wei' respectively?

 

As far as I can recall, 'wu' is 'unmanifest' and 'wei' is 'external', so that would make 'literally' 'wu-wei' equal the 'external unmanifest' but you can tell I'm grabbing at straws here :-).

 

Scholars, please jump in to correct?

 

I have an inkling that I've got it backwards :-)

 

"It furthers one to have somewhere to go" - I read that somewhere :-)

[Birch]

There is a whole field of practice called karma yoga. Those who follow it perform actions towards whAtever goal but dont fixate on the imagined results of the action. So when the opportunity to perform an action arises, they do it to the best of their ability and dont waste energy on dreaming about or lusting after the results. If the action is done impeccably, the fruit will automatically come. In the same vein, they dont pine after things tht they havent got because the action didnt bear fruit

 

Tht is wu wei...not trying to go against the natural flow of things and not worrying too much about thr reuslts. The results will come if the work done is aligned with the natural course of the universe

 

Oh. Many things. I have no idea about the natural course of the universe. I mean, where else is anyone?

The 'karma yoga' thing sounds interesting. Sometimes I get a feeling that if I only embraced everything into whatever form it had then all would be well. It's vaguely tantric in - well, in embrace. Not same as bakti (sp?) which is to maintain distance from everything until you "get it" that way.

 

Alright to explain another way, it's like the 'taiji pole' between yin and yang was embraced to the point where there is none but, well, obviously the yin and yang is still there. I mean, until the last conscious "something" disappears (it ain't gonna be me :-) I like the somethings:-) and I wouldn't have bothered with them otherwise. Sorry, sometimes I slip into grandiosity :-p do you see how this gets weird very fast? )

[Aaron]

Just as an aside, from my own experiences I strongly believe in reincarnation, but I'm not sold, nor do I believe in Karma as many people do. I kind of think of Karma along the lines of sin, it's a good way for religion to keep people in line, but in reality it's all dependent on one's own interpretation of what sin and bad is.

 

If you want to believe in karma, that's fine too, I just haven't experienced anything that's led me to actually believe it exists.

 

So from my standpoint reincarnation yes, Karma/Dharma, no.

 

Aaron

Edited October 22, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

5ET, do you have any specific daoist texts referring to this concept of karma and/or rebirth? since you're talking about the "shanching" sect here.

 

It would be nice to read something in a specific text relating to this. i haven't read anything stating something to the effect of "and he was reborn and then became an immortal throguh the grace of the gods etc" within any texts that I have read, but then again they may be in some more obscure texts that I don't know of.

 

That is a fair question and I suggest that there is something in The Chuang Tzu that points to this indirectly but I won't present it here because I wish to allow it to be discussed in the sub-forum.

[Marblehead]

There is a whole field of practice called karma yoga. Those who follow it perform actions towards whAtever goal but dont fixate on the imagined results of the action. So when the opportunity to perform an action arises, they do it to the best of their ability and dont waste energy on dreaming about or lusting after the results. If the action is done impeccably, the fruit will automatically come. In the same vein, they dont pine after things tht they havent got because the action didnt bear fruit

 

Tht is wu wei...not trying to go against the natural flow of things and not worrying too much about thr reuslts. The results will come if the work done is aligned with the natural course of the universe

 

I know that experiences very, very well. Hehehe. I have planted many fruitless trees. I just dig them up and start all over again.

[Marblehead]

As far as I can recall, 'wu' is 'unmanifest' and 'wei' is 'external', so that would make 'literally' 'wu-wei' equal the 'external unmanifest' but you can tell I'm grabbing at straws here :-).

 

Yes, "wu" is "unmanifest". In this case "wei" would be "action" but our Chinese reading friends would be able to add much to this. For me, this says "unmanifest action".

 

"Yo" is the "manifested". It is in "yo" that we live our manifest life.

[dwai]

Oh. Many things. I have no idea about the natural course of the universe. I mean, where else is anyone?

The 'karma yoga' thing sounds interesting. Sometimes I get a feeling that if I only embraced everything into whatever form it had then all would be well. It's vaguely tantric in - well, in embrace. Not same as bakti (sp?) which is to maintain distance from everything until you "get it" that way.

 

Alright to explain another way, it's like the 'taiji pole' between yin and yang was embraced to the point where there is none but, well, obviously the yin and yang is still there. I mean, until the last conscious "something" disappears (it ain't gonna be me :-) I like the somethings:-) and I wouldn't have bothered with them otherwise. Sorry, sometimes I slip into grandiosity :-p do you see how this gets weird very fast? )

 

Now now, let's not be pedantic. Are you certain you have "NOT" understood what I am saying?

 

Actually it gets weird real fast because you choose to make it seem weird. Nothing wrong in liking somethings....in fact I like lotsofthings...

Not desiring fruits of MH's trees is not the same as not liking somethings or for that matter disliking somethings either. ;-)

 

And no, Bhakti (if that's what you were referring to) is not that at all -- it stands for devotion and love. The word you are looking for I think is vairagya (or detachment). Its not for everyone, only those who have renounced normal life in society and chosen to become mendicants. Even they have dispassion or detachment from only material pursuits, like money, clothes, cars, sensual gratification. Obviously one cannot live in the material world and not partake in it's "somethings"...the question then becomes, how "obsessed" are you with these? Do you wake up in the morning to strive to achieve these things and go to bed in the night thinking about these?

[dwai]

I know that experiences very, very well. Hehehe. I have planted many fruitless trees. I just dig them up and start all over again.

 

 

I guess it must be the process of planting trees that is the main attraction, right?

[Birch]

Now now, let's not be pedantic. Are you certain you have "NOT" understood what I am saying?

 

Actually it gets weird real fast because you choose to make it seem weird. Nothing wrong in liking somethings....in fact I like lotsofthings...

Not desiring fruits of MH's trees is not the same as not liking somethings or for that matter disliking somethings either. ;-)

 

And no, Bhakti (if that's what you were referring to) is not that at all -- it stands for devotion and love. The word you are looking for I think is vairagya (or detachment). Its not for everyone, only those who have renounced normal life in society and chosen to become mendicants. Even they have dispassion or detachment from only material pursuits, like money, clothes, cars, sensual gratification. Obviously one cannot live in the material world and not partake in it's "somethings"...the question then becomes, how "obsessed" are you with these? Do you wake up in the morning to strive to achieve these things and go to bed in the night thinking about these?

Alright, let's admit i like the less-travelled route:-)

Doesn't devotion require a gap between you and the objects of devotion?

I wake up in the morning because i've either slept enough or because i told someone i'd be somewhere to do something or i want to do something.

The main stuff i think about before falling asleep is how to rid myself of my stupidity and dumb reactions and ideas. No, not much concerned about cars and clothes. A bit more concerned about lethargy and how little i care about anyone apart from myself.

[Marblehead]

I guess it must be the process of planting trees that is the main attraction, right?

 

It is, actually. The process of living, making mistakes, some successes, but never allowing the failures to stop the process.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, "wu" is "unmanifest". In this case "wei" would be "action" but our Chinese reading friends would be able to add much to this. For me, this says "unmanifest action".

 

"Yo" is the "manifested". It is in "yo" that we live our manifest life.

 

無為, Wu Wei

These two compound characters are just one specific term with a philosophy behind it. We do not translate its meaning by the superficial meaning of each character. Wu Wei has different meaning in different philosophy, religion, and ordinary expression in our daily lives. Literally, in daily life, it means do nothing.

 

In LaoTze's philosophy, Wu Wei is do nothing to interfere with Nature and let Nature to take its course. Another word, just let everything to be natural by allowing them to go through the process with Nature. His main idea was pointing at the rulers by asking them not to interfere with the lives of the people. Just let them be and live as freely as possible.

 

In ZhuangTze's philosophy, Wu Wei to him was to be natural with Nature. So, Nature does not interfere with his life in anyway. Thus just let him be and live as freely as possible.

 

In Chinese Buddhism, Wu Wei means those things that the followers do not do as taboo.

 

In daily life, it applies to a lazy person which does nothing and have no accomplishment in life.

 

PS...

The "unmanifest action" will be manifested without one's realization though....

Edited October 22, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Thanks for the additional details. I am sure they are helpful to many.

 

PS...

The "unmanifest action" will be manifested without one's realization though....

 

Indeed!

[dwai]

Alright, let's admit i like the less-travelled route:-)

Doesn't devotion require a gap between you and the objects of devotion?

I wake up in the morning because i've either slept enough or because i told someone i'd be somewhere to do something or i want to do something.

The main stuff i think about before falling asleep is how to rid myself of my stupidity and dumb reactions and ideas. No, not much concerned about cars and clothes. A bit more concerned about lethargy and how little i care about anyone apart from myself.

 

Why does devotion need a gap between the subject and object of devotion?

Bhakti cannot be tranliterated into english, like most sankrit words. So bhakti is devotion, reverence, love, compassion, yearning, all rolled into one. I would say everyone needs to have these things for one self. Is there a gap?

Wow you think of all those things before you go to sleep? Impressive! I just sleep because i feel sleepy

 

I get it, you dont want "foreign" concepts introduced into daoist discussions.

[Birch]

 

Why does devotion need a gap between the subject and object of devotion?

Bhakti cannot be tranliterated into english, like most sankrit words. So bhakti is devotion, reverence, love, compassion, yearning, all rolled into one. I would say everyone needs to have these things for one self. Is there a gap?

Wow you think of all those things before you go to sleep? Impressive! I just sleep because i feel sleepy

 

I get it, you dont want "foreign" concepts introduced into daoist discussions.

 

"Why does devotion need a gap between the subject and object of devotion?"

 

Ur, because otherwise you'd be it? I see this Bhakti thing as an attempt to provoke feelings that may be 'natural' in some people 'post- 'it' a kind of 'fake it until you make it' like lots of practices. Perhaps imitation is a form of flattery but it's nowhere near sincere if you have to drag sentiments out of folks. At least other churches have the good grace to use stirring music, coloured lights and sex-death imagery. Oh well, I suppose, once you do it enough it becomes 'natural' - like other things.

 

I don't think I could tell a 'proper' daoist concept from a foreign thing. Ironically the endgame of the foreign-thing being to drop all of those concepts, right? Or is that not it?

[dwai]

"Why does devotion need a gap between the subject and object of devotion?"

 

Ur, because otherwise you'd be it? I see this Bhakti thing as an attempt to provoke feelings that may be 'natural' in some people 'post- 'it' a kind of 'fake it until you make it' like lots of practices. Perhaps imitation is a form of flattery but it's nowhere near sincere if you have to drag sentiments out of folks. At least other churches have the good grace to use stirring music, coloured lights and sex-death imagery. Oh well, I suppose, once you do it enough it becomes 'natural' - like other things.

 

I don't think I could tell a 'proper' daoist concept from a foreign thing. Ironically the endgame of the foreign-thing being to drop all of those concepts, right? Or is that not it?

Why do you feel you are not it?

Bhakti can be art, it can be chopping wood, carrying water, eating, drinking, breathing...it is felt, not intellectualized. It is in seeing a sunrise and revelling in the aweoneness of the source, it is natural, not imitation. It happens or it doesnt. YOu might even not know what it is but yet you feel it...it is the opening of the heart-mind. Thats where it rises from. It can happen when energy moves from the hsin.

 

But we arent discussing that, we are talking about how desireless action (which is wu wei imho) prevets karma fom being accrued...

[Birch]

Why do you feel you are not it?

Bhakti can be art, it can be chopping wood, carrying water, eating, drinking, breathing...it is felt, not intellectualized. It is in seeing a sunrise and revelling in the aweoneness of the source, it is natural, not imitation. It happens or it doesnt. YOu might even not know what it is but yet you feel it...it is the opening of the heart-mind. Thats where it rises from. It can happen when energy moves from the hsin.

 

But we arent discussing that, we are talking about how desireless action (which is wu wei imho) prevets karma fom being accrued...

 

That's alright. I didn't say I felt like I'm not it BTW :-) Just so I'm clear about that.