Taoism and Karma

[Patrick Brown]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

 

Yes I did think that when I read it years ago but perhaps there's a more esoteric interpretation?

 

Perhaps Shu and Hu are the duality of the manifest universe and there interaction is through chaos? This interaction causes the evolutionary progress with the formation of atoms and then their coalescing into elements, planets etc. The relevance of the septenary abstraction is perhaps related to the formation of the seven planes of consciousness. So when this process reaches a certain point man appears and an ordered view of the universe is seen without any apparent chaos? Chaos is transmuted into order and is now the flow named Tao but within everything? The term the "eternal return" comes to mind.

[Patrick Brown]

Minding the seven orifices, don't let the essence escapes, don't let strangers enters.

One will revive 'Chaos' the ruler of the center kingdom.

 

As for Shu and Hu, just pay attention to the middle kingdom;

one might catch their envoys and witness their meetings.

 

Yes that's very interesting kind of like holding fast to the center.

[Marblehead]

You guys got way too heavy for me with that one. I try to keep it simple if I can.

[XieJia]

You guys got way too heavy for me with that one. I try to keep it simple if I can.

 

You are right Boss;

not really sure why I did that.

[Patrick Brown]

You guys got way too heavy for me with that one. I try to keep it simple if I can.

 

I had a feeling you might say that!

[Marblehead]

And now Y'all are being funny too. Hehehe.

[konchog uma]

Perhaps someone can explain this to me?

 

chaos had closed his orifices which is reference to sealing the mind from the senses.

 

hope it makes more sense now

[deci belle]

The Ruler of the Southern Ocean was Shu, the Ruler of the Northern Ocean was Hu, and the Ruler of the Centre was Chaos. Shu and Hu were continually meeting in the land of Chaos, who treated them very well. They consulted together how they might repay his kindness, and said, 'Men all have seven orifices for the purpose of seeing, hearing, eating, and breathing, while this (poor) Ruler alone has not one. Let us try and make them for him.' Accordingly they dug one orifice in him every day; and at the end of seven days Chaos died.

 

This is what happens to our natural wholeness when we listen to and act on our inner "do-gooder". How much worse are the ideas of our inner "evil twin"?

 

Not letting external manifestations in and entertaining inner states so they can act out preserves one's innate wholeness to the benefit of one's potential and manifest evolution.

[Patrick Brown]

chaos had closed his orifices which is reference to sealing the mind from the senses.

 

hope it makes more sense now

 

So we fall into the illusion of death and rebirth?

 

This is what happens to our natural wholeness when we listen to and act on our inner "do-gooder". How much worse are the ideas of our inner "evil twin"?

 

Not letting external manifestations in and entertaining inner states so they can act out preserves one's innate wholeness to the benefit of one's potential and manifest evolution.

 

Hmm not sure about that could you expand on it a bit?

[konchog uma]

So we fall into the illusion of death and rebirth?

 

i'm not sure about that. I think he is commenting on the fact that while it seems vague and nebulous to be detached from the senses, and like deci said, the do-gooder will want to get someone like that back in touch with their senses. But really the person who is not distracted by the input of the senses can attain the mind of emptiness and commune with the source or the way.

 

So it doesnt (to me) have so much to do with death and rebirth just cause he died. He died because those who could not understand the higher way wanted to do him a favor and get him in touch with his senses. So they were well meaning but in the end, chaos was better off by himself without the so-called help of others. It has more to do (to me) with the higher way not being commonly understood by people, and a warning to look out for, as deci called it, the do-gooder. It is a nice warning to accept things as they are without wanting to change them to your own personal specifications too. And an internal metaphor... and, um, more im sure

[XieJia]

chaos had closed his orifices which is reference to sealing the mind from the senses.

 

hope it makes more sense now

 

Really like your comments on the verse

 

Any idea who Hu and Shu maybe? The rulers of the Northern and Southern seas.

[Patrick Brown]

i'm not sure about that. I think he is commenting on the fact that while it seems vague and nebulous to be detached from the senses, and like deci said, the do-gooder will want to get someone like that back in touch with their senses. But really the person who is not distracted by the input of the senses can attain the mind of emptiness and commune with the source or the way.

 

So it doesnt (to me) have so much to do with death and rebirth just cause he died. He died because those who could not understand the higher way wanted to do him a favor and get him in touch with his senses. So they were well meaning but in the end, chaos was better off by himself without the so-called help of others. It has more to do (to me) with the higher way not being commonly understood by people, and a warning to look out for, as deci called it, the do-gooder. It is a nice warning to accept things as they are without wanting to change them to your own personal specifications too. And an internal metaphor... and, um, more im sure

 

Thanks that was very helpful.

[konchog uma]

Really like your comments on the verse

 

Any idea who Hu and Shu maybe? The rulers of the Northern and Southern seas.

 

thanks XieJia! back at you!

 

i think to me they are just extremes, where chaos is central because he is balanced

 

??? i dont know what Hu and Shu mean tho so i can't be sure what Chuang is trying to say

[dawei]

Any idea who Hu and Shu maybe? The rulers of the Northern and Southern seas.

Since this is a creation myth, it may be interesting to loosely join it to the Pangu myth where Chaos is an egg created by the perfect balance of Yin and Yang. When Pangu emerged he set about to separate the two creating Earth (Yin) and Sky (Yang).

 

Thus, I see the ZZ characters as:

Chaos - hundun - whole and complete unity; the summation of all

Shu -Ruler of South Sea - Yang - Abrupt, quick, lightning

Hu - Ruler of the North Sea - Yin - Sudden, thunder

 

In the Songs of Chu, Shu and Hu are juxtaposed as a single term as if to reflect that they are really two sides of the same coin (or egg).

 

So I see them as probably archtypes of Yin and Yang, reflecting the parts which make up the whole (chaos).

[XieJia]

Since this is a creation myth, it may be interesting to loosely join it to the Pangu myth where Chaos is an egg created by the perfect balance of Yin and Yang. When Pangu emerged he set about to separate the two creating Earth (Yin) and Sky (Yang).

 

Thus, I see the ZZ characters as:

Chaos - hundun - whole and complete unity; the summation of all

Shu -Ruler of South Sea - Yang - Abrupt, quick, lightning

Hu - Ruler of the North Sea - Yin - Sudden, thunder

 

In the Songs of Chu, Shu and Hu are juxtaposed as a single term as if to reflect that they are really two sides of the same coin (or egg).

 

So I see them as probably archtypes of Yin and Yang, reflecting the parts which make up the whole (chaos).

 

Hi David

 

Thank you for sharing.

I agree wholly with your presentation of Zhuangzi's.

My observation is that the Yin and Yang can already be understood through the North and South sea; I was just wondering why ZZ choose to give them characters and personified making them 'Ruler'.

 

Do you guys perhaps see any deeper/other hidden interpretations?

 

 

[XieJia]

Sorry; Double posted.

Edited October 27, 2011 by XieJia

[manitou]

i'm not sure about that. I think he is commenting on the fact that while it seems vague and nebulous to be detached from the senses, and like deci said, the do-gooder will want to get someone like that back in touch with their senses. But really the person who is not distracted by the input of the senses can attain the mind of emptiness and commune with the source or the way.

 

So it doesnt (to me) have so much to do with death and rebirth just cause he died. He died because those who could not understand the higher way wanted to do him a favor and get him in touch with his senses. So they were well meaning but in the end, chaos was better off by himself without the so-called help of others. It has more to do (to me) with the higher way not being commonly understood by people, and a warning to look out for, as deci called it, the do-gooder. It is a nice warning to accept things as they are without wanting to change them to your own personal specifications too. And an internal metaphor... and, um, more im sure

 

 

I agree. The do-gooder is someone to look out for. The do-gooder has their own agenda and idea of what is good and what is bad. One book which I read at least yearly is The Impersonal Life, by Anonymous. (Later determined to be Joseph Benner). It helps one understand the concept of non-judgment as far as good and bad is concerned. It also says that it takes an EXTREMELY wise person to know 'exactly what it is that another person really needs'.

 

Look at poor Lindsay Lohan. Her attorney was interviewed a couple days ago and of course is doing everything in his power to keep his client out of jail (apparently she wasn't comfortable doing her community service at the morgue). In his view, he said "I have to do what's best for my client." What baloney. If he were a wise man, he would realize that the very best thing for his client is to spend a couple months behind bars so the reality would really sink in. That poor child is going to die because of all the enablers around her.

 

Yes, the do-gooders have an agenda. I think the real agenda is to make themselves feel 'better than' those whom they are doing 'good' for.

 

Another example: my aunt, here in Ohio, participates in a food give-away through their church. Plenty of people come in off the street and get something to eat, and can look for some clothes. My dear Christian auntie will take with her a can of Lysol and spray down the counter each time one of the street people (who may not smell so good) comes and goes. The other church ladies get a kick out of it, and dear Auntie makes a bit of a show about doing this. She told me that the other church ladies are very grateful to her because they didn't want the smell of the street people in their fellowship hall.

 

I would think that the fact that dear Auntie does this in front of the other street people who are waiting would be absolutely humiliating to those people. But this sort of goes to what I was saying above: the nice church ladies are more concerned about earning their way into their heaven, it seems, than being concerned about the feelings of the downtrodden they are serving. I see it as a self-serving endeavor that makes them feel really good about themselves.