[TTC Study] Chapter 81 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

Here's three versions of Chapter 81 of the Tao Teh Ching.

 

Translated by John C. H. Wu

 

Sincere words are not sweet,

Sweet words are not sincere.

Good men are not argumentative,

The argumentative are not good.

The wise are not erudite,

The erudite are not wise.

 

The Sage does not take to hoarding.

The more he lives for others, the fuller is his life.

The more he gives, the more he abounds.

 

The Way of Heaven is to benefit, not to harm.

The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, not to strive

with anyone.

 

 

Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English

 

Truthful words are not beautiful.

Beautiful words are not truthful.

Good men do not argue.

Those who argue are not good.

Those who know are not learned.

The learned do not know.

The sage never tries to store things up.

The more he does for others, the more he has.

The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.

The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.

The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

 

 

Translated by Robert G. Henricks

 

1. Sincere words are not showy;

2. Showy words are not sincere.

3. Those who know are not "widely learned";

4. Those "widely learned" do not know.

5. The good do not have a lot;

6. Those with a lot are not good.

 

7. The Sage accumulates nothing.

8. Having used what he had for others,

9. He has even more.

10. Having given what he had to others,

11. What he has is even greater.

12. Therefore, the Way of Heaven is to benefit and not cause any harm;

13. The Way of Man is to act on behalf of others and not to compete with them.

 

 

---------

 

And that's the final chapter. I hope Marblehead forgives me for jumping the gun and posting the final chapter. I posted the first one many, many, months ago and for nostalgic reasons wanted to post the last chapter. I look forward to hearing what people think about this chapter and I want to stop and thank everyone who has been kind enough to participate in these discussions. Your views and ideas were welcome and valued and I look forward to the reboot when the time comes.

 

With a kind and happy heart,

 

Aaron

Edited October 17, 2011 by Twinner

[Protector]

Whoooooooo! We finally made it guys, what a trip

Can't wait for the next project

Now, let's party :lol:

 

 

I'm a little worried how the last part might get misinterpreted but it's good that it's translated differently 3 times but I like the second one the least and the third makes rich people seem bad. Somebody give more different translations, please

[XieJia]

Thomas Cleary's

 

[81]

 

True words are not beautiful,

Beautiful words are not true.

Experts do not argue;

the argumentative are not expert.

The knowledgeable are not generalist;

generalists are not knowledgeable.

Sages do not hoard;

since they act for others,

they themselves have more and more.

Since they give to others,

they have increasing abundance.

The Way of Nature helps and does not harm;

the Way of Sages is to act without contention.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, this chapter has always been difficult for me what with all the generalizations. I don't like generalizations all that much.

 

I think the first six lines speaks to the extremes.

 

The second half of the chapter is a concept change. Speaks to the way of the Sage. And, of course, the Sage would not be participating in these extremes.

[XieJia]

Yeah, this chapter has always been difficult for me what with all the generalizations. I don't like generalizations all that much.

 

Then it must be easy for the generalizations with you and the Generalizations must have like you a lot!.

 

Marble, I do agree. The first six lines talks about the innate nature of manifested things.

 

The later lines could also take the same logic; it is through acting for others and not for themselves.

Thus the Way provides for them.

The Way of Heaven doesn't harm them.

 

and summarizing

 

The Way of Sages is to act without contending.

 

So the uses of the first six is:

To highlight the polarity of Acting for oneself and acting for others.

 

Or it could also be look this way:

 

about 'not contending'.

 

Beautiful words contends; true does not.

Arguing contends, knowing does not.

Scheming contends, wisdom does not.

 

The Sage act for others, the sage doesn't need to accumulate and this is why the Sage always have enough.

Without contending, the Sage also doesn't provoke that of Heaven.

 

Be Well,

 

[XieJia]

@Sinfest;

If you are still keen on drawing comic stripes. I think Visual illustration of Dao De Jing would be a good project.

Just don't forget me when you are rich

 

Here another Translation worth mentioning.

William Scott Wilson from the text that migrate to Japan.

 

Reliable words are not attractive;

Attractive words are not relaible.

Good people do not quibble;

Quibblers are not good people.

The knowing are not know-it-alls;

Know-it-alls are not knowing.

 

The sage does not hoard:

As much as he does for the sake of others,

He himself has all the more at hand.

The Way of heaven

clears the ground for cultivation and does not hinder.

The Way of the sage

is to act but not contend.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thomas Cleary's

 

[81]

 

True words are not beautiful,

Beautiful words are not true.

Experts do not argue;

the argumentative are not expert.

The knowledgeable are not generalist;

generalists are not knowledgeable.

Sages do not hoard;

since they act for others,

they themselves have more and more.

Since they give to others,

they have increasing abundance.

The Way of Nature helps and does not harm;

the Way of Sages is to act without contention.

 

Makes me think about warnings against hoarding knowledge, trying to "know it all," being too self-focused confuses and clouds the mind with so many ideas trying to be "right," yet with open awareness we do not need a thought in our mind to know the right thing to do.

[Jeff]

and summarizing

 

The Way of Sages is to act without contending.

 

So the uses of the first six is:

To highlight the polarity of Acting for oneself and acting for others.

 

Or it could also be look this way:

 

about 'not contending'.

 

Also...

 

The Way of the sage

is to act but not contend.

 

Interesting thought on "Contending". I read it slightly differently... The Way of the Sage is to act, but not interfere.

 

Since a Sage is One with Tao, how is it possible for a Sage to contend? I would be be interested in your thoughts...

 

Have a good week.

 

[XieJia]

Also...

 

 

 

Interesting thought on "Contending". I read it slightly differently... The Way of the Sage is to act, but not interfere.

 

Since a Sage is One withT ao, how is it possible for a Sage to contend? I would be be interested in your thoughts...

 

Have a good week.

 

 

Hi Jeff,

 

I merely used the same word as the translator; you can replace 'not contending' with 'not interfering'.

I think the feel of the translations would still be similar.

And hence same question, with the Sage is one with the Dao; how can the Sage interfere? If the Dao doesn't.

 

If he interferes, he is already not with the Dao.

If he contends, he is already not with the Dao.

So how does one be with the Dao?

How can he be called a Sage? Maybe the fool can be called 'XieJia"

 

Be Mindfully forgetful;

Edited October 17, 2011 by XieJia

[lienshan]

Somebody give more different translations, please

The Mawangdui B version

 

The trustworthy word isn't pleasingly and the pleasing word isn't trustworthily.

The intelligent one isn't excessively and the excessive one isn't intelligently.

The good one isn't additionally and the additional one isn't good.

'holy man' isn't a collection, when considered the man himself.

An answer in the affirmative is, when praising the man!

Oneself answering in the affirmative is additionally.

Therefore:

Tao of Heaven benefits to and doesn't harm.

Tao of Man is on the side of and not opposed.

 

'holy man' 聖人 in line 4 is usual translated 'sage' but it doesn't work here,

where Laozi deals with the term itself consisting of two characters.

(e.g. the trustworthy word 'man' and the pleasing word 'holy')

 

The Mawangdui B version has only 人 'Man' in the last line,

where the Received versions have 聖人

Edited October 19, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 81

1. True words are not beautiful.

3. Beautiful words are not true.

3. One who is kind does not quarrel.

4. One who quarrels is not kind.

5. One who is profound is not broad.

6. One who is broad is not profound.

7. A Sage does not hoard.

8. Yet one who helps others ended up with more sufficed.

9. Yet one who gives to others ended up with more enriched.

10. The principle of nature benefits all with no harm.

11. The morality of human is to give but not to seize.

 

 

Chapter 81

1. 信 言 不 美,

2. 美 言 不 信。

3. 善 者 不 辯,

4. 辯 者 不 善。

5. 知 者 不 博,

6. 博 者 不 知。

7. 聖 人 不 積:

8. 既 以 為 人 己 愈 有,

9. 既 以 與 人 己 愈 多。

10.天 之 道 利 而 不 害,

11.人 之 道 為 而 不 爭 。

Edited October 17, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

3. Beautiful words are true.

Thanks for your compliment to my translation

[Marblehead]

Thanks for your compliment to my translation

 

Hehehe. Yes, beautiful words can be true words. False words can also be beautiful.

 

Have I mentioned already that there are no universals?

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for your compliment to my translation

 

Here is my final translation:

Beautiful words are not true....

[XieJia]

Hehehe. Yes, beautiful words can be true words. False words can also be beautiful.

 

Have I mentioned already that there are no universals?

 

 

@Lienshan and Chidragon

Do you think 人之道 (the way of man) worth revisiting in other chapters as well?

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

 

@Lienshan and Chidragon

Do you think 人之道 (the way of man) worth revisiting in other chapters as well?

 

Revisiting...??? Please clarify.

[Informer]

Revisiting...??? Please clarify.

 

Apply the same meaning for other chapters that use the same characters.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Informer

[ChiDragon]

Apply the same meaning for other chapters that use the same characters.

 

Thank you...

 

 

@Lienshan and Chidragon

Do you think 人之道 (the way of man) worth revisiting in other chapters as well?

 

 

 

It depends on the context. It may not be applied to all.

Edited October 18, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aaron]

 

Translated by John C. H. Wu

 

Sincere words are not sweet,

Sweet words are not sincere.

Good men are not argumentative,

The argumentative are not good.

The wise are not erudite,

The erudite are not wise.

 

The Sage does not take to hoarding.

The more he lives for others, the fuller is his life.

The more he gives, the more he abounds.

 

The Way of Heaven is to benefit, not to harm.

The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, not to strive

with anyone.

 

 

Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English

 

Truthful words are not beautiful.

Beautiful words are not truthful.

Good men do not argue.

Those who argue are not good.

Those who know are not learned.

The learned do not know.

The sage never tries to store things up.

The more he does for others, the more he has.

The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.

The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.

The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

 

 

Translated by Robert G. Henricks

 

1. Sincere words are not showy;

2. Showy words are not sincere.

3. Those who know are not "widely learned";

4. Those "widely learned" do not know.

5. The good do not have a lot;

6. Those with a lot are not good.

 

7. The Sage accumulates nothing.

8. Having used what he had for others,

9. He has even more.

10. Having given what he had to others,

11. What he has is even greater.

12. Therefore, the Way of Heaven is to benefit and not cause any harm;

13. The Way of Man is to act on behalf of others and not to compete with them.

 

 

Hello folks,

 

I don't think this is about generalizations so much, but making direct statements. The first six lines allude directly to how a man should behave, he should not argue, he should understand that just because something is true, doesn't mean that it needs to be said, and he should understand that knowledge is not what you know, but how you apply what you know. The last six lines are directed towards how a sage behaves, they do not accumulate things, in other words they have no personal wealth, they give everything to others, and the reason they do this is because "the way of heaven is to benefit and not cause any harm; The Way of Man is to act on behalf of others and not to compete with them."

 

For me that's not generalization, but extremely specific instruction, but that's simply how I see it.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

For me that's not generalization, but extremely specific instruction, but that's simply how I see it.

 

Well, let me do a little generalizing here.

 

"Truthful words are not beautiful."

 

This simply is not true. Anyone, with a little thought, can make the truth sound beautiful, in fact, the truth can be make to sound as if it is a given, sweeter than wine.

 

"Good men do not argue."

 

Not true either. I have had many arguements here. I consider myself a good man. I also consider those I argue with good men (and women). We argue because we (two or more people) have a fixed way of understnading something. In a common discussion we simply exchange our understandings. In an arguement we support the way we view something and state our justification believing the way we do. During the arguement information may be presented that will cause one or more of the people to change their understanding and be better for it.

 

"Those who know are not learned."

 

Again, not true. I know many practical things. This is a result of formal education or because of practice (both learned). Now, I will agree that there are some things that are unknowable and to profess that we know is an error.

[lienshan]

1. True words are not beautiful.

3. Beautiful words are not true.

3. One who is kind does not quarrel.

4. One who quarrels is not kind.

5. One who is profound is not broad.

6. One who is broad is not profound.

 

1. 信 言 不 美,

2. 美 言 不 信。

3. 善 者 不 辯,

4. 辯 者 不 善。

5. 知 者 不 博,

6. 博 者 不 知。

Words aren't 'beautiful' unless we are talking calligraphy. The character 美 has the secondary meaning 'pleasing' that fit better into the context. When I tell a woman, that she is beautiful, then she might think that the word is trustworthy, but might too suspect, that it's pleasing?

 

The character 博 means according to the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary: 'ten sellers of silk loudly spamming their wares at a marketplace'. I choose to translate it 'to boast' but there is probably a better pick in english?

 

The only different character of the first six lines is:

 

The Mawangdui version's 多 meaning 'much, many, an exaggeration, double-wording'

 

The Received version's 辯 meaning 'to discuss, a dispute between two scholars'

 

The latter is Heshang Gong's pick leading to an 'how to do' interpretation like Twinner's.

The first is maybe not the original character, who knows, but leads to an examination of the term

聖人 'holy man, sage'.

I suppose that none on this forum has ever met an holy man/woman or a sage? And I suppose, that Laozi would have mentioned a meeting somewhere in at least one of his 81 chapters, if he had met a sage irl? So in my reading of this chapter is the word 聖 'holy' in focus. Is it pleasing? Is it boasting? Is it an overstatement?

Edited October 18, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

"Truthful words are not beautiful."

 

Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because it hurts. If the next of kin die from an accident, the truthful words are not very beautiful to the informed.

[Marblehead]

Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because it hurts.

 

You got that right!!!

[lienshan]

If the next of kin die from an accident, the truthful words are not very beautiful to the informed.

'the informed' is maybe the poor heir-at-law inheriting the property

[ChiDragon]

'the informed' is maybe the poor heir-at-law inheriting the property

 

Chapter 2

When there is ugliness, then I see something beautiful.

 

PS...

You are ugly beautiful...lienshan...

Edited October 18, 2011 by ChiDragon