My Last Post

[fiveelementtao]

Hello Bums,

I'm writing to let you know I am leaving the discussion forum and this will be my last post. The atmosphere of the forum has deteriorated for me to the point where I no longer wish to stay here.

 

There is certainly a place for arguments, disagreements and even harsh challenges of opinions and positions. But when those disagreements become personal attacks and slander, it is an entirely different matter.

 

As you may undoubtedly know, I am no stranger to conflict and disagreement on this forum. But, to my knowledge, I have never personally attacked anyone or their character. Any criticsm I have made has always had circumstance and context and I have never knowingly sought to hurt anyone's feelings or get revenge. I have never leveled any accusations without evidence and I have always been willing to be proven otherwise and take full responsibility for any mistakes I have made. Whenever I have been shown to be mistaken, I always admit my fault and whenever possible, remove any inaccurate or inappropriate posts or statements.

 

I may have commented on someone's behavior and said some pretty harsh things. But, I have made an effort to be sure that I did not deliberately insult or malign anyone even in the face of hurtful personal attacks against me. And if I had something to say to someone, I said it to their face. I don't believe I ever went on other threads and maligned anyone behind their backs in a passive aggressive way. I have been aggressive, but never consciously passive aggressive.

 

I understand that emotions can run very high and sometimes people go a little overboard but usually within a certain context and I can forgive that. But when the attacks become inflammatory, vindictive, personal and out of context, then it is just childish cruelty and I see no place for that and want no part of it.

 

Recently I was challenging someone on this forum for their willful and deliberate characterization of their own teacher as being deceitful. I found that to be disgraceful behavior for a student and I said as much after giving this individual opportunity to retract their statement in order not to unwittingly spread disinformation about their own teacher and another respected teacher. This person deliberately chose to continue with their slander. I was direct with my extreme disapproval. This person then found it necessary to go onto another unrelated thread and accuse me of theft, plagiarism and deliberate deceit in creating my spiritual path.

 

It was a vindictive and personal attack on my character. I contacted mods to ask that the offending post be removed and the person responsible be either temporarily or permanently banned. The mods decided that it warranted neither because they saw it merely as "harsh criticism." Criticism in one thing. Personal slander without evidence is entirely different.

 

I have never pretended to be anything other than student and seeker. I am not a master. I have never claimed any kind of enlightenment and I have never tried to hide behind false modesty. I'm just a person. As such, personal insults and attacks do hurt my feelings. To pretend otherwise for me is deceitful. In my world, the worst, most hurtful thing someone can do is accuse someone of deliberate deceit in regards to their spirituality. I have made similar accusations but not without researching those claims first.

 

Attacks on this forum are unavoidable, but I expect the mods to be there to protect the atmosphere so that when someone does cross the line that they be held accountable. In my case, I don't feel this was done and I am not willing to be in an atmosphere where someone can maliciously attack my character whenever they wish without consequence.

 

But really this is just the last straw for me. When I first came onto this forum, there were more energetic practitioners sharing their practices. Many had actual teachers and experience, so they could share their ideas with some knowledge and weight. Most of those people have left the forum. As a result, the overall tone of the forum has begun moving toward solo practitioners, many of whom are only interested in learning from books and videos and are hostile to the idea of learning the practices in a traditional way. The result is that the quality of the discussions has deteriorated. For me, I am finding it harder and harder to come on this forum without having alot of judgement and as a result, my posts have also become more and more hostile and I don't like seeing that in myself. As a result, more and more of the younger crowd are reacting toward me with hostility as the angry old patriarchal grouch. The result is me wanting to "put those youngsters in their place and tell them to get off my lawn." I don't like that either. Whether I like it or not, I have become that angry old fart I used to hate as a kid. I am not this way in person or with my local students.

 

So, I have to leave for my own emotional well being.

 

I have let mods know that if they change their minds in a couple of days and take appropriate action, I am willing to stay. If not, I will take that as a sign that the Universe wants me focusing my efforts on other things.

 

Good luck to all,

Mike

[konchog uma]

Hello Bums,

I'm writing to let you know I am leaving the discussion forum and this will be my last post. The atmosphere of the forum has deteriorated for me to the point where I no longer wish to stay here.

 

I hope you make awesome use of your time if its true that you aren't coming back.

 

I appreciate your point of view, and i'll miss it.

[joeblast]

Many an excellent post from you, Mike. We're all better for having your presence here. Best to you, whatever comes to pass /\

[Informer]

?

[templetao]

I personally like 5et posts and always make a point to read them when I can.

 

In this case I believe that he is right. Slander is when an opinion is stated and presented as a fact.

 

5et asked for proof of the claims about him and none were posted thus making it an opinion unsupported by proof which was stated to the forum as a fact- Slander

 

5et is well spoken and very considerate i think it is a sign of something bad if kind well educated chikung teachers like 5et start to leave the forum.

[Kali Yuga]

It's just an internet forum man. Every nerd and idiot thinks he can be tough hiding behind a computer screen. People are bound to say things you don't like, espeically if you're tough on keeping your own position. Hey, if you think what you say is right, then there is no need for apology. I saying the same thing to you that I said to Stiggy. If you believed in the words that you said when you said them, then there is not fault nor shame.

 

I personally don't think that your forum presence has been in vain as you contribute knowledge to the community and are one of its teachers. I just think you perhaps are mistaking the cyber world for the real life. If its disturbing your peace of mind and well being then perhaps you need to ask yourself why - are these people people you deal with in person in everyday life? or are they just people you've never met that you're taking too personally? I personally love to just remain in non-thought and non-opinion for much of the time and just relax. It's only when one maintains rigidity that there is suffering. Real life is so much different from a computer screen, sometimes it's nice to treat it that way.

 

You don't have to throw out the whole crop because of one bad seed.

 

Kali

[Jeff]

As a relative newcomer, I tell you that you will be missed. But, your points are understandable.

 

Before leaving, consider joining us reading some of the old masters. We are just finishing with the TTC and are about to start with the words of Chuang Tzu. Your insight and participation would be appreciated.

 

[ChiDragon]

IMO...

Running away is not a solution to a problem. Avenge is not a solution neither. If one come to a Taoist forum without any effort to learn to endure others with some tolerances, then it would be defeating the purpose of the forum. Please don't forget, some people are not yet as open as you are.

[thelerner]

We will be poorer for it.

 

I hope you at least check in with us every now and then. Your experience and insight is appreciated. The majority of time, the majority sees what you write and silently agrees. Don't let a more vocal minority dissuade you.

 

Sometimes we all howl at the wind. Don't be a stranger.

 

 

 

Sincerely

 

Michael

 

edit

Let me add that IMO Scotty did not mean to be rude to you. I understand why you'd take it that way. He was stating his opinion, whereas you (like most teachers) are intouch with facts. He did not mean to be insulting, he just lacks your wider perspective and personal knowledge in regards to Kunlun and Yi Gong teacher.

 

And thats why teachers, like you, are needed here. We have opinions and bias's whereas teachers have experience and perspective that we need to learn.

Edited October 17, 2011 by thelerner

[Protector]

nooooooo don't jump

[Ish]

I hope that you reconsider leaving, I enjoy reading your posts and I am sure many others are the same.

Best of luck with whatever you decide but at least pop in and post a bit even if you decide to go!

[Aetherous]

5,

 

I think you were just as slanderous towards me (even stating falsely that I was calling Max a liar; that's not what I said), and that it was totally uncalled for. I don't come to deal with YOUR emotional issues...I come here for information and friendship. If you dish it out on someone, you should know that not everyone will just take it...some will give you a dose of your own medicine!

 

Don't feel unwelcome here, though...even from me. A lot is mistranslated online. If we were in person, you'd see from my face that this isn't a big deal (to me) and that I consider you to be a friend just like anyone else here.

 

I know your feelings are hurt from my opinion of your status as a teacher and your products. What I didn't say was that I think if people take up your program, they will experience something and that some may enjoy it.

 

So anyway, my best to you.

-Scott

[Marblehead]

Hi Mike,

 

Sad to hear of your decision.

 

I am unaware of the situation so I cannot speak to it.

 

But as was already stated, you still are the person you are regardless of what anyone else says.

 

You can still change your mind and stand up for yourself against any negative comments made toward you.

 

And as has been said as well, with different word, Taoist do not concern themselves with being praise or blamed. We simply do what we need do and let it go.

 

So you did what you felt you needed to do. Apparently the other person had problems with what you said so attempts were made to discredit you. You should not have allowed that to bother you, especially to the point of wanting to leave the board just because you felt you were insulted and the mods decided to do nothing.

 

But you can do something. If what was said about you was false then you have every right to set the record straight.

 

There are many here who place value on the posts you make. You will be depriving them of your knowledge and thoughts.

 

Regardless of what you do I wish you well.

[Seth Ananda]

 

I have let mods know that if they change their minds in a couple of days and take appropriate action, I am willing to stay. If not, I will take that as a sign that the Universe wants me focusing my efforts on other things.

 

Mike

Sorry but this seems like an emotional blackmail ploy to me... I want 5ET to stay but writing that long spiel, with this little bit on the end just sounds like 'Waaa, If I don't get my way, I'll leave! Ban Scotty and i'll stay though '

 

5ET. You have always over reacted when someone bags your products. I personally think you should get over it, accept that what you put out there will always be disliked by at least a few people, who may be vocal about it.

At least you are putting something out there, and TTB's is a good place to help keep awareness of your material {as I am sure you know} so Man up and stay

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Seth Ananda]

Also, if someone makes an accusation, instead of asking for proof, how bout just telling the Truth, which may just be what you always said.

 

Scotty said:

"His Teutonic stuff is almost entirely made up...the rest of it is connecting the dots when there really is no connection. He claims that his ancestor spirits guided him, but anyone with a discerning eye can tell otherwise."

 

I dont think you ever claimed otherwise...

And:

"He has posted fraudulent history here regarding ancient symbols and this tradition."

That might be something that you can clarify, or demonstrate that Scotty is in breach of...

 

and:

Moreover, where is his certification from his maoshan teacher? From what I understand, the teacher disowned him and told him not to teach!

 

also another chance to address the Issue. If this is false, It may get the moderator action you desire. Tell us the story. Are you in good standing with said teacher?

 

 

Again, if Scotty is wrong, tell us, but if he is partially right, give us your side of the story. You obviously at least learned from the guy, and have created the product from at least some experience... It will help you avoid ending up in Max's shoes..

[Gerard]

Mike don't leave!

 

This is just an ego-test, if you leave your ego will win. I have experienced the same thing as you do now and I also opened a couple of threads in the past exactly about the same issue: personal attacks, slander, shallow talk, etc. But if you go past them, then you'll realise that they are all empty and impermanent.

 

My friend, the spiritual path is a very difficult an challenging one in which you will be tested all the time: ego, invisible forces, life misery, impermanence, yin and yang, temptations and sanskharas, etc.

 

Never, never give up and always focus on universal love and the light, the true and permanent forces of the Universe. Samsara is just an illusion.

 

Life itself is a test and you must endure it.

 

This forum is nothing compared to REAL LIFE and EXISTENCE.

 

Take care,

 

Gerard

Edited October 17, 2011 by Gerard

[Birch]

Also, if someone makes an accusation, instead of asking for proof, how bout just telling the Truth, which may just be what you always said.

 

Scotty said:

 

 

I dont think you ever claimed otherwise...

And:

 

That might be something that you can clarify, or demonstrate that Scotty is in breach of...

 

and:

 

 

also another chance to address the Issue. If this is false, It may get the moderator action you desire. Tell us the story. Are you in good standing with said teacher?

 

 

Again, if Scotty is wrong, tell us, but if he is partially right, give us your side of the story. You obviously at least learned from the guy, and have created the product from at least some experience... It will help you avoid ending up in Max's shoes..

 

 

Good points Seth!

The only thing I'd feel concerned about in a 'constructed' symbolic practice would be if the symbols were 'tampered with' either through intention or mistake but I doubt that a person who has deeply studied the origins of the stuff would fall into that category. Reason for this is symbols have their own 'chi', - that which is given to them by the symbol's 'initiator' if you like and then what the practitioner does with them, then what the student does with them. But that's a bit off-topic regarding 5ET's impending departure.

 

5ET, how about a break rather than leaving? I know sometimes this place annoys me. But I guess I see it as a way of cultivating all the same.

 

L

[starhawk]

I see your posts all the time here. If you leave it is a staple of Tao Bums collective dispersing.

 

We all have our own choices to make. This is just one more challenge in your cycle. Once in awhile I see senior forum members getting sick of TaoBums and I ask them to reconsider.

 

Whatever you do, have fun and please come back soon. You should have a channel of communication for seekers who want to join your lineage.

[templetao]

I still side with 5et.

 

Scotty insulted him, his teachings, his products, and even his teacher. Then you ask 5et to "lighten up" so I ask this.

 

Why cant you apologize to 5et? Unless your intent was to really hurt him with your post if not then apologize.

[Aetherous]

Did you not read what I said to him in this thread? Or his first post where he flipped out on me over nothing?

 

Here is my last post to him...

 

5,

 

I think you were just as slanderous towards me (even stating falsely that I was calling Max a liar; that's not what I said), and that it was totally uncalled for. I don't come to deal with YOUR emotional issues...I come here for information and friendship. If you dish it out on someone, you should know that not everyone will just take it...some will give you a dose of your own medicine!

 

Don't feel unwelcome here, though...even from me. A lot is mistranslated online. If we were in person, you'd see from my face that this isn't a big deal (to me) and that I consider you to be a friend just like anyone else here.

 

I know your feelings are hurt from my opinion of your status as a teacher and your products. What I didn't say was that I think if people take up your program, they will experience something and that some may enjoy it.

 

So anyway, my best to you.

-Scott

 

To me, that is reconciliation. Why make it seem like a bigger deal than it is? The mods decided...the drama is over.

 

However, I will also address this:

 

You should have a channel of communication for seekers who want to join your lineage.

 

What lineage? He is not a legitimate teacher, having been disowned by his former spirit fighting teacher, Sifu Hata. Was he even a lineage holder of this before being disowned?? He does not have permission to teach, and most of what are in his products are modified or watered down practices.

 

This is not slander...this is fact. Do a search on this forum for Sifu Hata and find the truth.

[Encephalon]

I am not well-versed enough to speak to the details of this particular rift. I have my own issues with a couple people here, and to them I say, Nei Kung practice works!! I am far less judgmental and verbally combative in here than I used to be and I credit that with the emotional healing that my practice brings. Go in peace!

 

But I still hold personal accountability as an essential component of an open forum. That debate about moderating that burned like a wildfire through this forum a few weeks ago barely touched on the subject of personal accountability for one's posted content. I've ruffled a few feathers in here by being overly diligent and confrontive when I thought that universally ascertainable issues and facts were being recklessly skewed in the direction of uninformed opinion. I felt like I was the only one screaming "Can't we at least agree on what a fact is?"

To be sure, I'm completely at peace with the world in all its magnificent ambiguity and have jettisoned just about every metaphysical and superstitious notion I've ever held. (I'm a big fan of Deng Ming-Dao (365 Tao) precisely because he embraces my favorite stripe of Taoist humanism.) But I wasn't always this way. Until I started college at the ripe old age of 35 my spiritual life was constructed with metaphysics too, so I've learned to lighten up on people who are younger than me and still knocking on all doors.

 

I do not abide stupid fucking bullshit nonsense very well, though, and I clearly have a lot to learn about how I respond to it online, especially when it comes wrapped in ostentatious sermons (I don't think the odds of ever learning this skill are in my favor). I may not be the most humble person in here, but I've worked like hell to cultivate the scholarship of my field, and if people want to challenge my observations, which they are welcome to do (THAT'S THE FUCKING FUNCTION OF THIS PLACE!!), then they damn well better do so with an informed opinion, rather than slinging accusations of hyper-intellectualism from a crockpot of pseudoscience and self-absorbed subjectivity. And, at the very least, they should be able to take it as well as they sling it.

 

After several self-imposed suspensions (and two unintended but reasonably well deserved ones!) I've already had my fill. Anyone choosing to go on a TTB Forum Fast should be mindful of the surplus time they will acquire and EXACTLY how they choose to employ it. I've poured over dozens of books on CD from the Los Angeles Public Library (a really good library) and the following titles are my favorite for boning up on and putting into practice surplus time --

 

The Now Habit: A Strategic Program for Overcoming Procrastination and Enjoying Guilt-Free Play

by Neil A. Fiore

 

The 4-Hour Workweek, by Timothy Ferriss

 

The Leader's Way: The Art of Making the Right Decisions in Our Careers, Our Companies, and the World at Large by His Holiness The Dalai Lama and Laurens van den Muyzenberg

 

Self-Esteem: Your Fundamental Power by Caroline Myss

 

Maximum Confidence: 10 Steps to Extreme Self-Esteem by Jack Canfield

 

The first two are amazing and would be my only choices if I had to make them. When I calculate the amount of time that I've put into writing a response that has bounced off the forehead of the jerk I was writing it to I come up with HOURS of daily cultivation time, working out, and refining my attitude and personal skills with the audio books listed. Every 24 hours the world gets closer to that moment of truth where we suddenly realize that living beyond our financial and ecological means is over for good. We should be preparing for that day, cultivating our chi flow to dissipate stress and fine tune our immune systems, acquiring skills that are going to be necessary when all the faucets and switches and relays stop working, and cultivating friendships with people you'll need to make it through the impending bottleneck. Not everyone will choose to. Some will simply find it easier to die.

 

My time in here was well spent. I was exhilarated when I could come in here and finally write stuff other than college papers. But those days are over.

[Dainin]

I'm sorry to see you go, 5ET. I always found your perspectives and posts interesting.

No one can create anything new and not expect to receive criticism and doubts from others. Even if they've put a great deal of thought and effort into it. Good luck to you.

 

"Thus shall you think of this fleeting world:

A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream,

A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,

A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream."

 

(The Diamond Sutra)

[RiverSnake]

It is my understanding that Michael William Denney has over 20 years of practice and study in the Shamanic and Esoteric Arts. Has published several books on the subject and currently is using his knowledge to revive ancient Teutonic Cultural and Energetic practices.

 

Equated in modern education you could say Michael has a Doctorate in his area of study. He is an expert in his field and has used his knowledge in order to benefit others.

 

 

Scotty on the other hand...although i do not know his level of involvement in the esoteric arts has probably practiced for a couple of years and perhaps dabbled in the practicing of a variety of disciplines (much like myself). He is a high-school or elementary student whom is just beginning to understand this area of study, his opinions may have some degree of validity (as all do) however, they by no means undermine 5ETs history of practice or discredit him as a Teacher.

 

5ET has been consistent in his views and practices throughout the time i have been here (i am sure many will agree) and has shown no actions that would lead me or anyone else to believe that Scotty's accusations of him being a fraud have even and atom of truth in them.

 

I simply believe this whole thing is simply a clashing of emotions and ego and is utterly stupid and has been taken too far. Furthermore 5ET i think it is silly for you to leave because one goober behind a computer screen criticized your teachings. Suck it up and make a thread systematically disproving Scotty's slander as i am sure you can, i think leaving is a mistake. Furthermore I have always enjoyed your posts and the level of insight that you bring to any discussion is always palpable. I feel it is a real loss.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited October 18, 2011 by OldGreen

[Aetherous]

I simply believe this whole thing is simply a clashing of emotions and ego and is utterly stupid and has been taken too far.

 

Totally agree with this.