My Last Post

[Marblehead]

Hi Mike,

 

Well, you could always come over to the "Love" thread. Everyone loves each other there.

[Aetherous]

It has been sad for me to watch it continue to devolve into just another flame war forum.

 

Truly, it has been sad to see that kind of shit here. Kind of like your post which started this...

 

95% sure? So, Max lied to me? Is that what you are saying?

 

Dude, you really need to check yourself. You admit that you don't know. Your uneducated unresearched opinion is worthless in comparison to the opinion of the two people involved here who are Sifu Matsuo and Max. You THINK you know but you haven't bothered to check with the teachers involved here?

I had the same suspicion as you but I personally asked Max before saying anything publicly.

 

What you are doing is calling me an idiot, and your teacher and Sifu Matsuo liars...

 

For you to publicly differ with Max's stated opinion is nothing short of disrespect. And you are clearly doing it to somehow make yourself look superior to Sifu Matsuo. Disgraceful.

 

If you were my student and you did something like this, I would stop teaching you and I would tell other teachers to not teach you either...

 

If you want to make progress on your path, Scotty, I strongly suggest you get some serious lessons in humility and pull your head out of your rear end.

 

I was right to put you on ignore. So back you go.

 

I find your actions to be extremely offensive to the lineage...

 

Listen, I don't wish to uphold negativity towards you...the lines have been drawn between us. So there it is. We can either erase them and move forward like spiritual practitioners, or even just adults...or you can stay on your path of trying to get me banned for telling the truth about your products (that's what they are)...and we can just agree to be not cool with each other.

 

Your choice as always.

 

If I get suspended or whatever for speaking the truth about your products, so be it. You will have apparently done the "right thing", in your own terminology. If something happens, I hope the moderators make clear what exactly is allowed here regarding the posting of negative (yet true) things about teachers.

[templetao]

I honestly expected that the mods would see that accusing someone of theft, plagiarism and deceit without proof other than conjecture based on similarity was by definition a personal insult and worthy of action.

 

Amen to that.

 

This is way worse than name calling.

 

I think that some dont see full implications of accusing someone of this without proof.

 

5et i know you dont care about the loss of sales but that is called damages. Which you could suffer all because of faulty accusations based on assumptions.

 

Its cruel and unfair to you.

Edited October 18, 2011 by templetao

[Apech]

Scotty,

 

Just help me on this. When you said:

 

His Teutonic stuff is almost entirely made up...the rest of it is connecting the dots when there really is no connection. He claims that his ancestor spirits guided him, but anyone with a discerning eye can tell otherwise.

 

He has posted fraudulent history here regarding ancient symbols and this tradition.

 

The HUUL breath mantra is just red phoenix level 2 stolen and modified a bit. Where is the acknowledgement? Where is his certification to teach and modify Kunlun methods?

 

Moreover, where is his certification from his maoshan teacher? From what I understand, the teacher disowned him and told him not to teach!

 

This isn't even touching the "Celestial Neigong" stuff, which is absolute crap.

 

Were you calling 5ET a liar and cheat ... or not?

[Informer]

It takes two to tango regardless, you are well aware of the ignore button. I think this whole thing is inflated out of purportion.

[Kali Yuga]

It takes two to tango regardless, you are well aware of the ignore button. I think this whole thing is inflated out of purportion.

It's much more 5ET's reputation at the stake here than just simply a matter of ignoring people. One person ignored=no harm done. Irreparably damaged reputation=quite the opposite.

[Aetherous]

Apech,

 

Scotty,

 

Just help me on this. When you said:

 

His Teutonic stuff is almost entirely made up...the rest of it is connecting the dots when there really is no connection. He claims that his ancestor spirits guided him, but anyone with a discerning eye can tell otherwise.

 

He has posted fraudulent history here regarding ancient symbols and this tradition.

 

The HUUL breath mantra is just red phoenix level 2 stolen and modified a bit. Where is the acknowledgement? Where is his certification to teach and modify Kunlun methods?

 

Moreover, where is his certification from his maoshan teacher? From what I understand, the teacher disowned him and told him not to teach!

 

This isn't even touching the "Celestial Neigong" stuff, which is absolute crap.

 

Were you calling 5ET a liar and cheat ... or not?

 

Okay, I am attempting to move on from what I consider to be a minor incident of bickering between two decent human beings/taobums...so...

 

Not really. He has essentially admitted in the past that his celestial neigong is very watered down and that his teutonic stuff is made up and not authentic.

 

He has also essentially admitted that he teaches without permission from Sifu Hata. This is something people should know regarding him...but it's also not a huge deal to teach without permission. Anyone can be a teacher if they decide to.

 

I also don't consider it stealing or cheating Max's Kunlun (despite using that terminology), by lifting the essentials from the basic version of red phoenix 2. He was trying to create something good based on another decent method...and is not trying to be a Kunlun teacher without permission. He doesn't credit the exact source, but oh well. I said "stealing" at the time because I was sick of his unwarranted emotional outbursts.

 

He was being compared to Max when I made this post, who people were saying didn't credit Jenny for yigong/kunlun...so it was pertinent to the discussion. A poster said that 5elementtao was very honest, and I disagreed based on that evidence I presented. I also really disagreed with an uncertified teacher like him being compared to a very legitimate teacher, as if their systems are on the same level of quality.

 

I think there may be a bit of personal dishonesty regarding the ancient symbols and ancestor spirits guiding him...was he deliberately lying about it? I don't think so...he seems to believe in it.

 

So a liar and a cheat? No, I didn't call him those things. But I did say what I said regarding his status as a teacher and the quality and content of his products. I think what I said is absolutely true, and not slanderous. It will not harm his reputation any more than his own attitude and conduct will. I think people should know about some of it (like how his teacher has not given him permission)...and that we should feel free to discuss the qualities of teachers and their products (as long as it's not insulting the person), without being threatened with lawsuits, moderation action, personal vendettas against us, etc. That is not the type of conduct that teachers should bring to this forum.

[Aetherous]

Also something to take into consideration...

 

My view is that fiveelementtao felt like he was justified in flipping out on me, or that he could get away with it, due to my history with the moderation team.

 

That stuff is in the past, right? I think we're all trying to move forward, and get past these little disputes. Work it out ourselves. I eventually ended up doing my time back then with a 7 day suspension. At least personally, I'm trying to be a good member here, and not trying to mess with the mod team or be an insulting/destructive presence.

 

So anyway, that's that.

[Informer]

It's much more 5ET's reputation at the stake here than just simply a matter of ignoring people. One person ignored=no harm done. Irreparably damaged reputation=quite the opposite.

 

Reputation is for ego's.

[Kali Yuga]

Reputation is for ego's.

Reputation is the whole basis for choosing the people we choose as teachers. Would you want to enter into a relationship with a person who had a shitty reputation and always lied consistently to people about his services and goods? Would you buy food from people who were reputed to put poisonous chemicals into the food? Leave your car in an area reputed to be full of thieves and criminals?

 

Reputation translates into economic power when a person is offering something, and so when you destroy it through slander or other means, you are damaging a person's ability to make a living and live the lifestyle that he so desires to.

 

Don't you see that without reputation no one can possibly ever make a living at anything? The whole reason people want teachers like Wang Liping or John Chang etc is because of their reputation. No one wants a shitty hack teacher who steals stuff from other people and lies consistently about everything. The same goes for an employer who is hiring someone - a person's reputation is examined.

 

If you really believe that reputation is something that should be forsaken then have a good one. Good luck getting a job or doing business. No one hires a reputed serial killer over a morally decent fellow.

 

Reputation is very important for living in today's society. It may be ephemeral but it's implications are incredibly real.

[fiveelementtao]

Mods, please in all seriousness put a muzzle on Scotty already... He clearly doesn't get that he is out of control and a loose cannon and clearly does not understand the difference between insult and slander. Insult is bad enough but Slander is far far worse and he keeps doing it.

 

My request now is this:

Remove ALL of Scotty's posts since this started in regards to ANY mention he makes of me. The cumulative disinformation is starting to pile up and now I am becoming legitimately concerned. If you choose not to discipline him, at the very least, monitor him until such time that he proves himself capable of acting with some sanity.

 

The overall combination of his continued slander and repeated statement of assumptions, conjecture concerning me, what he thinks I have said, my motives, my teachers, my history is becoming injurious to my reputation. And now I reluctantly feel the need to correct his disinformation about me. This should have been squelched as soon as I asked for help...

 

He has essentially admitted in the past that his celestial neigong is very watered down

False. I have stated that the Celestial Qigong is derived from my Spirit Fighting training. It is not "watered down." Many techniques are derived directly from the spirit fighting techniques. Some is modified for qigong and meditation purposes but that does not reduce it's effectiveness. Those who have actually obtained the DVDs and spent time practicing it can speak for their own experiences. I have not posted the many testimonials I have received from people's experiences of it. Some techniques are my own creation but they are a result of years of dedicated practice of the original forms and are therefore authentic to the tradition...

and that his teutonic stuff is made up and not authentic.

False again. I have never said that it was "Made up" It is a modern interpretation on an Ancient spiritual path. I have documented my research and shared that all along.

He has also essentially admitted that he teaches without permission.

False. The only thing I have alluded to (which is well known) is that my former MA teacher and I are estranged. I was certified by him almost 20 years ago. and for many years I was the only instructor he certified...in fact, I was his senior instructor for many years before moving away... and to my knowledge, that certification has not been removed. Up until my teacher and I parted ways, I was the senior instructor second only to him in his class...

by lifting the essentials from the basic version of red phoenix 2. He was trying to create something.

False. Pure conjecture. Whatever similarities are coincidental. If I wanted to teach RP, I would have gotten certified by Max and taught it. As Scotty can attest it is not that hard to get a facilitator's certificate (at least when I met Max). I have great respect for Max's art and I have no need to compete with it. Scotty's inexperience is showing through with his assumption that anything that even remotely resembles what he is familiar with means it has been "lifted" or stolen from his art. I'm sure as he gets older and more experienced in other tradtions he will discover that many different traditions have shared similarities. This is just common sense. Anyone who has learned RP can easily see that there is only ONE general aspect that is remotely similar, the rest is completely different...

 

A poster said that 5elementtao was very honest, and I disagreed based on that evidence I presented.

The only evidence is his opinion which is pure conjecture, twisting of facts to fit his agenda or outright misunderstanding on his part that he has made no effort to corroborate directly from me.

So a liar and a cheat? No, I didn't call him those things.

He did. The words are there in black and white.

 

Listen mods, this is getting silly. I should not have had to come in here and defend myself against these things that have been repeated numerous times after asking for help... After my first request for help, Scotty should not have been allowed to continue and even expanding on his original slander.

 

Even with all this I do not hold Scotty responsible. Scotty is the way he is and we all are familiar with him when he gets this way. The mods should have stepped in stopped him...

and Scotty's continued elaboration on his slander even in the midst of my previous silence to all the different points shows that whatever process is involved in moderation is not working. He needed to be leashed as soon as it became evident that he was resolute in continuing his slander.

 

If nothing is done to edit these things, for my own emotional and NOW professional well being I have no choice but to leave...

 

Time to take responsibility for our beloved forum...

 

Mike

Edited October 19, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Aetherous]

"Put a muzzle" on me? I'm "out of control" and a "loose cannon"? I'm not capable of acting with some "sanity"? I need to be "leashed"?

 

Chill out, dude. You're being just as offensive if not more so, when I am saying I'm ready to move on and let it go.

 

So your post is getting reported, for the moderator's record of this ridiculous incident.

 

I fully stand behind every single thing I said of your status as a teacher and your products. I do not say this to be personally offensive...but say it because I think it's absolutely true, and because your elaboration on each point was completely meaningless to me. Your points did not refute anything I said in any way.

 

I hope you find some peace in your life, and not let people who disagree with you bother you so much. This is clearly not my issue, but your own...I think you recognize this, and are prepared to take action about it...so, best of luck in that regard. No one can go through life without some criticism.

 

Edit:

 

When the mods wrote back that they saw Scotty's actions as merely being harsh criticism of a teacher rather than a personal insult toward a member of the community

 

I am operating here under the assumption that this is actually the case...

Edited October 19, 2011 by Scotty

[Birch]

ur, i have a question about certification / legitimacy.

I have already wondered/asked some ( ok, one :-)) people what/why about the need for it with respect to a "spiritual" practice.

I'm wondering this because i figure the legitimacy/certification is a people thing. Not that people are devoid of spirit. IME/IMO to the contrary. But it seems that certification and legitimacy are required by people (including teachers as we can see they legitimate themselves/each other through lineages/traditions etc).

 

So i wanted to get deeper into that line of questioning. It's sort of on-topic, i think, because it goes into stuff about lineages and authorised practices and such. My personal position on it is hopefully ok- clear. Just ask if not:-)

[fiveelementtao]

You're Right K. Certification is merely a stamp of approval from the instructor that they "approve" of the certificate holder. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could mean everything. It just depends on the people involved and does not in any way mean that those without certificates won't make amazing teachers.

 

I myself do not certify anyone as I feel no need for it. I encourage my students to take what I teach them and expand upon it and be better than I am. In such a case any certification I would give would only be a limitation...

[Protector]

If we were in a temple, If I had that temple, I would kick you BOTH OUT

 

Let me teach you some more about Bushido

There once was the most despicable pest imaginable. He is no more, he dared to insult a master. Full of anger, master reached for his sword and got ready to cut off pest's head. Half a second before heads started flying, master decided that was not good enough, he must suffer. He decided to cut off his tongue so he would not speak any more idiocy, cut off his hands so he wont point out any of his foolery, and cut off his legs so he wont go and bother anyone else again! But then it occurred to master that without legs he wont be able to go to place where he would be able to make more enemies. Legs were spared. But no one many would dare to hurt a cripple so hands were spared. For the worst punishment, he left the tongue intact. The tongue got him in trouble so it will do it again.

So will you let the mods cut you or will you continue cutting at each other.

 

I'm feeling generous so have another lesson.

At war there is protagonist antagonist and the audience. When both are fighting the audience decides which one is which and takes sides. If one wins, the other looses. So only half the the audience will be happy with victory.

Who here agrees with 5et and who with Scotty. Maybe one will win, maybe you both already lost. Now the audience of Tao Bums is one, they wont take any sides.

Don't let them destroy you.

[Birch]

Good post Mr Smarty:-)

My take on this particular fight is both personal and philosophical. It's NOT "spiritual".

I've been reading stuff on Ayahausca curanderos (sp?) and it reads like they are the "fightiest" folks ever! The really badly intentioned are called something else. I couldn't even find the word. Some kind of witch.

I don't think in this instance we have a case of "badly intentioned something else" on either side of the argument.

Although by now i know better than to intervene further than that (or have to duck lots :-))

 

What i'd like to share though is how much of a burden wanting to like someone can get. Especially if you don't. Especially when all "reason" points to why you "should". IME i've had a much easier time showing respect to people i do like and people i don't like. It's those people i "should" like but don't that i've had the hardest time with. Until i admitted to myself i didn't like them. Paradoxically, after that, several of them ended up being folks i really appreciated and got on well with. Not all of them mind. But what i mean is "don't force yourself".

 

 

A few cts.

[Apech]

Apech,

 

 

 

Okay, I am attempting to move on from what I consider to be a minor incident of bickering between two decent human beings/taobums...so...

 

Not really. He has essentially admitted in the past that his celestial neigong is very watered down and that his teutonic stuff is made up and not authentic.

 

He has also essentially admitted that he teaches without permission from Sifu Hata. This is something people should know regarding him...but it's also not a huge deal to teach without permission. Anyone can be a teacher if they decide to.

 

I also don't consider it stealing or cheating Max's Kunlun (despite using that terminology), by lifting the essentials from the basic version of red phoenix 2. He was trying to create something good based on another decent method...and is not trying to be a Kunlun teacher without permission. He doesn't credit the exact source, but oh well. I said "stealing" at the time because I was sick of his unwarranted emotional outbursts.

 

He was being compared to Max when I made this post, who people were saying didn't credit Jenny for yigong/kunlun...so it was pertinent to the discussion. A poster said that 5elementtao was very honest, and I disagreed based on that evidence I presented. I also really disagreed with an uncertified teacher like him being compared to a very legitimate teacher, as if their systems are on the same level of quality.

 

I think there may be a bit of personal dishonesty regarding the ancient symbols and ancestor spirits guiding him...was he deliberately lying about it? I don't think so...he seems to believe in it.

 

So a liar and a cheat? No, I didn't call him those things. But I did say what I said regarding his status as a teacher and the quality and content of his products. I think what I said is absolutely true, and not slanderous. It will not harm his reputation any more than his own attitude and conduct will. I think people should know about some of it (like how his teacher has not given him permission)...and that we should feel free to discuss the qualities of teachers and their products (as long as it's not insulting the person), without being threatened with lawsuits, moderation action, personal vendettas against us, etc. That is not the type of conduct that teachers should bring to this forum.

 

Thank you for replying.

 

You are free to discuss teachers and products factually or from personal experience of course. The issue of lawsuits is just a fact and I don't think anyone has threatened you with this - just pointed out that if you make statements which impact on someone's business in this way there is a potential for legal action. Moderation action is always a possibility since this is a moderated forum. I don't see any personal vendetta here but I do wish for this thread to finish as it is unproductive and ill tempered - even if it does provide entertainment for some.

[Apech]

Also something to take into consideration...

 

My view is that fiveelementtao felt like he was justified in flipping out on me, or that he could get away with it, due to my history with the moderation team.

 

That stuff is in the past, right? I think we're all trying to move forward, and get past these little disputes. Work it out ourselves. I eventually ended up doing my time back then with a 7 day suspension. At least personally, I'm trying to be a good member here, and not trying to mess with the mod team or be an insulting/destructive presence.

 

So anyway, that's that.

 

Sorry no. When you say you eventually ended up serving a 7 day suspension you forgot to mention that you spent several days spamming this forum with new accounts to post offensive messages. You were allowed back in because despite what some believe the moderation here is light and forgiving. At that time you were justly accused of provoking other users and it seems you may be doing the same now but remaining below the insult radar while doing.

 

Your record of behavior is taken into account ... sorry but that's just how it is.

[Apech]

Mods, please in all seriousness put a muzzle on Scotty already... He clearly doesn't get that he is out of control and a loose cannon and clearly does not understand the difference between insult and slander. Insult is bad enough but Slander is far far worse and he keeps doing it.

 

My request now is this:

Remove ALL of Scotty's posts since this started in regards to ANY mention he makes of me. The cumulative disinformation is starting to pile up and now I am becoming legitimately concerned. If you choose not to discipline him, at the very least, monitor him until such time that he proves himself capable of acting with some sanity.

 

The overall combination of his continued slander and repeated statement of assumptions, conjecture concerning me, what he thinks I have said, my motives, my teachers, my history is becoming injurious to my reputation. And now I reluctantly feel the need to correct his disinformation about me. This should have been squelched as soon as I asked for help...

 

We moderate the forum ... we don't muzzle people. You can report posts and we consider what action to take. But please do not try to dictate the result by asking fro people to be banned or whatever that is not your decision. I realize you feel unjustly attacked and presumable angry about this but I think it would have been better to answer the accusations calmly and factually as you have done below. Remember third party readers don't know anything about you or your teachings and so they need facts to repudiate any accusations.

 

False. I have stated that the Celestial Qigong is derived from my Spirit Fighting training. It is not "watered down." Many techniques are derived directly from the spirit fighting techniques. Some is modified for qigong and meditation purposes but that does not reduce it's effectiveness. Those who have actually obtained the DVDs and spent time practicing it can speak for their own experiences. I have not posted the many testimonials I have received from people's experiences of it. Some techniques are my own creation but they are a result of years of dedicated practice of the original forms and are therefore authentic to the tradition...

 

False again. I have never said that it was "Made up" It is a modern interpretation on an Ancient spiritual path. I have documented my research and shared that all along.

 

False. The only thing I have alluded to (which is well known) is that my former MA teacher and I are estranged. I was certified by him almost 20 years ago. and for many years I was the only instructor he certified...in fact, I was his senior instructor for many years before moving away... and to my knowledge, that certification has not been removed. Up until my teacher and I parted ways, I was the senior instructor second only to him in his class...

 

False. Pure conjecture. Whatever similarities are coincidental. If I wanted to teach RP, I would have gotten certified by Max and taught it. As Scotty can attest it is not that hard to get a facilitator's certificate (at least when I met Max). I have great respect for Max's art and I have no need to compete with it. Scotty's inexperience is showing through with his assumption that anything that even remotely resembles what he is familiar with means it has been "lifted" or stolen from his art. I'm sure as he gets older and more experienced in other tradtions he will discover that many different traditions have shared similarities. This is just common sense. Anyone who has learned RP can easily see that there is only ONE general aspect that is remotely similar, the rest is completely different...

 

 

The only evidence is his opinion which is pure conjecture, twisting of facts to fit his agenda or outright misunderstanding on his part that he has made no effort to corroborate directly from me.

 

He did. The words are there in black and white.

 

Listen mods, this is getting silly. I should not have had to come in here and defend myself against these things that have been repeated numerous times after asking for help... After my first request for help, Scotty should not have been allowed to continue and even expanding on his original slander.

 

Even with all this I do not hold Scotty responsible. Scotty is the way he is and we all are familiar with him when he gets this way. The mods should have stepped in stopped him...

and Scotty's continued elaboration on his slander even in the midst of my previous silence to all the different points shows that whatever process is involved in moderation is not working. He needed to be leashed as soon as it became evident that he was resolute in continuing his slander.

 

If nothing is done to edit these things, for my own emotional and NOW professional well being I have no choice but to leave...

 

Time to take responsibility for our beloved forum...

 

Mike

 

Thanks for the response. I think this is how you could have responded earlier. I don't agree with the last part. Scotty is responsible for what he says, no-one else. We don't do 24/7 moderation we just look at reports and decide on action. Sometimes this is a bit slow because we are located round the world in different time zones. See below for mod decision.

[Apech]

**** Moderation Message ****

 

Please read posts in blue above by me in conjunction with this message.

 

We have five active reports in this thread alone and one from the previous thread. Not all the reports are from the two protagonists. We think this whole issue has detracted from the previous discussion and in effect hijacked the forum from legitimate topics. We think there is a degree to which this has been on the one hand a deliberate attack but also that the responses have not been helpful. We would like to think that people come on here to have genuine informed discussion and not to attack each other.

 

In the end our decision is that Scotty is suspended from posting for 30 days. If he repeats his previous action of creating new accounts this is will result in a permanent ban - which will be enforced.

 

**** Mod Message ends ****

[fiveelementtao]

**** Moderation Message ****

 

Please read posts in blue above by me in conjunction with this message.

 

We have five active reports in this thread alone and one from the previous thread. Not all the reports are from the two protagonists. We think this whole issue has detracted from the previous discussion and in effect hijacked the forum from legitimate topics. We think there is a degree to which this has been on the one hand a deliberate attack but also that the responses have not been helpful. We would like to think that people come on here to have genuine informed discussion and not to attack each other.

 

In the end our decision is that Scotty is suspended from posting for 30 days. If he repeats his previous action of creating new accounts this is will result in a permanent ban - which will be enforced.

 

**** Mod Message ends ****

 

My response moved here to avoid further distraction

[manitou]

Five Element - please consider just going on hiatus like I just did. Never say never. Your presence is too important here.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I guess we're moving this, but my response is here.

[konchog uma]

Good post Mr Smarty:-)

My take on this particular fight is both personal and philosophical. It's NOT "spiritual".

I've been reading stuff on Ayahausca curanderos (sp?) and it reads like they are the "fightiest" folks ever! The really badly intentioned are called something else. I couldn't even find the word. Some kind of witch.

 

Brujo?

[Apech]

Brujo?

 

If they are from Brazil it would be 'bruxo' (pronounced broo-show). Ok I know I'm a smartass .