Question for Buddhists

[thuscomeone]

I haven't been on this forum in a while, but I was thinking about something related to buddhism today and it struck me as odd. I just finished reading Moby Dick and it has changed my view on many things. Especially in regard to man's quest for ultimate knowledge. There is a passage in there that is so profound...when melville describes Queequeg's chest tattoos and says that even though his heart beat against them, he could not decipher what they meant. Just beautiful.

 

Anyway, there is the idea of emptiness in Buddhism. The infinite void that is capable of infinite manifestation. Yet Buddhists claim basically a finite number of types of realms. The animal realm, the human realm, the deva realm, the hell realm. And these same types of realms seem to cycle eternally for Buddhists. This is what strikes me as strange. If the void is capable of infinite manifestation, why, according to buddhists, are there only basically six types of realms? If this infiniteness of the void were true, there should be realms that we cannot even imagine. If it were true, how would we ever really be able to limit it and say "I know for certain that I'm going to be reborn as only one of six types of things after I die." See the absurd logic? So Buddhists, how do you explain this apparent discrepancy?

 

Not saying that I don't believe in some force which is capable of manifestation. I do. And I personally feel that whatever it is, it has allowed for man's evolution. But nowhere is it written that man will live on forever as an eternal manifestation of this void, as Buddhists seem to think. What comes after man we may not even be able to imagine.

[Gerard]

If the void is capable of infinite manifestation, why, according to buddhists, are there only basically six types of realms? If this infiniteness of the void were true, there should be realms that we cannot even imagine. If it were true, how would we ever really be able to limit it and say "I know for certain that I'm going to be reborn as only one of six types of things after I die." See the absurd logic? So Buddhists, how do you explain this apparent discrepancy?

 

That is what is said traditionally (and I believe it was a term coined by scholars more than real-time meditators), but I favour the following classification

 

Reality in essence can be broken down into three major planes:

 

1. Upper world

2. Middle world (physical reality)

3. Lower world

 

 

And the following sub planes:

 

1. The Physical Plane of Three Dimensions: This is the lowest of the seven planes, where we

spend our physical lives. The three lower sub-planes are: solids, liquids and gases. The four higher

densities are called the etheric planes, at which level faeries and nature spirits exist.

 

 

2. The Astral Plane of Four Dimensions: This is the place of out-of-body and near-death

experiences, as well as where, according to some teachings, one waits for reincarnation. This is also

where one finds the first Guardian Angels. It is also called the Emotional Plane. The energies on this

plane compose feelings, desires and emotions. It is possible to travel through solid matter here,

including the astral bodies' ability to pass through each other. The lower sub planes here can be

considered the "hell" of the realm, where - as stated above - all the negative thought processes and

entities which are created on the physical converge. The higher up we move through the Astral, the

brighter and more pure the energies become (like the sludge on the bottom of a lake compared to

the pure sunlight glinting off the surface).

 

3. The Mental Plane of Five Dimensions: The energies on this plane compose thought. Once one

can successfully astral project, one may be able to mental project. On this level are true altruistic

thoughts, free of desire or selfishness. Most angels and other spiritual beings are found here. The

lower sub levels of this plane are made up of conscious thought while the higher sub levels are

made up of abstract thought. The next higher level in the Mental Plane is what we think of as our

soul.

 

4. The Buddhic Plane of Six Dimensions: Upon reaching this plane, we leave individualized

personality. This is the plane of true spiritual insight (not to be confused with psychic feeling, which

is an astral manifestation). An accessible echo of the Akashic Records is found here, and has its

origination on the Atmic Plane.

 

5. The Atmic Plane of Seven Dimensions: This is the plane of consciousness and of life itself. Here

we find the great spiritual masters, as well as anyone who has achieved true conscious

enlightenment. The higher dragons of the world have also taken up residence here, to avoid being

hunted by those on the astral and lower who seek to eliminate them. Through my travels, I have

learned that Christ also resides on this plane, on the Mind's Idol in the Middle Atmic, with his

Bride.

 

6. The Monadic Plane: This plane is beyond any type of matter, dimension or evolution as we

know it. It is the plane of will where the ultimate divine spiritual sparks in all living things express

themselves and evolve and create on the lower planes ("as above, so below") . When reaching the

Monadic Plane, we leave all sense of space, time and self behind.

 

7. The Logoic Plane: This is the divine plane of God, the Source, or the One, which no living

human has been known to reach because of its extremely high vibrational aspect. It is free of any

limiting concept. This can be thought of as the plane in which nothing but pure, untapped energy

exists with the ability to create life from itself. It is, in essence, Creation.

 

I have no idea how level 7 has been perceived but probably by some extraordinary psychic/yogi(s).

 

 

That's why I recommend people to work with the astral in order to understand its workings, to avoid confusion and getting stuck in the spiritual path, to avoid the fear of death (dissolution of the ego), to work on karma so you basically know where you are at and the work that needs to be done in order to improve and progress in your spiritual evolution. Wondering what may happen after I die isn't going to help at all.

 

Vipassana meditation is an excellent tool to make significant progress and will lead you to experience the higher astral realms and overcome the fear of losing your ego because you'll understand that it is only an illusion that you carry lifetime after lifetime.

 

You'll certainly be reborn in a plane that resonates according to your karma, but funny enough karma also operates in a non-linear way, which is frustrating as you probably would have forgotten something that was left unfinished, say 5 lifetimes ago and return as a human again; otherwise if your karma was wholesome then as an angelical being or the inhabitant of a more spiritual planet than ours where spiritual practice is nourished and recognised in a global level.

[thuscomeone]

I respect your explanation, but I'm not sure it gets at what I'm saying yet. You're still limiting something which is supposedly infinite. You're saying that this void has seven planes. Well why wouldn't it have an infinite number of planes, most of them unimaginable to us? I think this results from an inability to really understand what the word "infinite" means -- the immensity of it.

 

Can't you see the absurdity of saying that something which has infinite possibilities has basically, when it comes down to it, only three major planes? You're attaching the finite to the infinite in order to make some sort of sense and order out of it.

Edited October 18, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Lucky7Strikes]

I respect your explanation, but I'm not sure it gets at what I'm saying yet. You're still limiting something which is supposedly infinite. You're saying that this void has seven planes. Well why wouldn't it have an infinite number of planes, most of them unimaginable to us? I think this results from an inability to really understand what the word "infinite" means -- the immensity of it.

 

Can't you see the absurdity of saying that something which has infinite possibilities has basically, when it comes down to it, only three major planes? You're attaching the finite to the infinite in order to make some sort of sense and order out of it.

The Diamond Stutra and the Avatamsaka stura say there are infinite realms. The six realms also divide into smaller realms of beings with similar karma. Those are in the pali suttas from what i read. I don't think this is that important though. The infinite in expressed in the finite, just as the finite is in the infinite. One in all, all in one. Well, that's what the Avatamsaka says.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[thuscomeone]

The Diamond Stutra and the Avatamsaka stura say there are infinite realms. I don't think this is that important. The infinite in expressed in the finite, just as the finite is in the infinite. One in all, all in one.

Oh but it is important. Even saying that there are infinite "realms" supposes that there is something called a realm which is going to be exist eternally. Thus once again eliminating infinite possibility.

 

Infinity is so mind-bogglingly immense that at some point realms will probably be replaced by something else which we cannot even imagine.

 

The finite is the infinite in the sense that it is one of the forms of the infinite. But if the infinite persisted as that one form forever, it would not be infinite.

Edited October 18, 2011 by thuscomeone

[Harmonious Emptiness]

According to Buddhist parlance, by force of: Anger, greed, ignorance, non-virtue, jealousy, and pride;

 

sentient beings are born in the realms of, hell, hungry spirits, animals, humans, demi-gods, and gods, respectively.

 

In the absence of those traits is Nibbana, literally, extinguishing the fire.

 

The words are no less concepts than the concept in question.. so there's no question any more than there's a word or a concept.

[Protector]

It's REALLY weird to me that most people can't tell a difference between Buddhism and Hinduism NO OFFENSE

 

The Buddha that founded this basic most popular version of Buddhism was born in India where the main religion was Hinduism so most explanations of how things work would be associated with that religion.

This is the first time I hear about these realms of manifestation and reincarnation stuff but I understand how they work because I understand chakras. Each chakra can be associated with a dimension, dot being the first one. (Though if you think harshly, second chakra is reproduction 2 so imagining a dot would be imagining two things, dot and space around it so first is the emptiness.) Knowing your chakras, 1 to 6 would be space time imagination and all that. But the 7th is the most powerful crown chakra and nothing can be above it. Do you know why? By definition crown chakra is "everything else"

 

Here's a video to help you understand better

[Gerard]

Can't you see the absurdity of saying that something which has infinite possibilities has basically, when it comes down to it, only three major planes? You're attaching the finite to the infinite in order to make some sort of sense and order out of it.

 

Start by experiencing those realms and then come back instead of criticising. Infinite? Does it involve a number, time, Science, well forget about it because once you leave your mind these concepts will vanish in thin air faster than you can imagine. Finite, infinite? What is this stuff You are using your MIND, out there there is no finite or infinite, no time, nothing like that, it feels as if everything moves very slowly especially in the higher planes where "happiness" and this incredible feeling of universal love and ease is so powerful that no wonder the Buddha always said the human realm is the ideal place to cultivate the Dharma. Up there I wouldn't give a rat's ass about cultivating the spirit, go up there, come back and let us know how it feels

 

Infinite??? LOL.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Gerard

[ChiDragon]

Hey...guys.

 

I am seem to be out of place here. When you guys are talking about Buddhism here, are you referring to a source from an Indian person...??? It seems to me the things are talked about here is different from the Chinese Buddhism.

[XieJia]

Six Realms of Existence

 

Good and Bad fruits of

 

Greed

Anger

Delusion

 

Buddhist say that all state of thoughts can be attributed to one or more of this roots.

 

Six Realms of Existence are comparisons for the state of thoughts.

 

 

So tell me, from the formless; one can think of myriad things.

How many thing can you think in this moment?

Edited October 18, 2011 by XieJia

[C T]

Dharma talk -

 

 

 

(posted this after i read Xie Jia's post. Very good, XJ. The grosser the mind, the thicker the realms... yes?)

[ChiDragon]

Hey...guys.

 

I am seem to be out of place here. When you guys are talking about Buddhism here, are you referring to a source from an Indian person...??? It seems to me the things are talked about here is different from the Chinese Buddhism.

 

 

ahhh......thanks guys

 

It was from the Tibetan Buddhism.