The Chuang Tzu

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, rene said:

 

Here's an action you may want to take: Sit down for this news!

 

I'm going to start reading ChuangTzu.

I have the Feng/English translation of Inner Chapters.

 

 

I'm sure there's a Chapter 1 thread here somewhere...lol... so I'll be doing a lot of bumping up - if that's okay?

I figure with half a brain left it's the perfect time...

Yes, I'm glad I was sitting down when I read that.

 

Please, revive any of the Chapter/Sections you wish at any time.

 

I actually wish we were doing the study with Burton Watson but things just worked out for us to use Mair's translation.

 

Taoist Text has on occasion posted section translations by others for comparison and I will invite you to do the same for any of the Chapter/Sections already posted.

 

 

I would also invite you to rad Lin Yutang's Inner Chapters.  It is on-line.

 

And, of course, there is Nina's translation.

 

Surely you remember Nina?

 

[rene]

27 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, I'm glad I was sitting down when I read that.

 

Please, revive any of the Chapter/Sections you wish at any time.

 

I actually wish we were doing the study with Burton Watson but things just worked out for us to use Mair's translation.

 

Taoist Text has on occasion posted section translations by others for comparison and I will invite you to do the same for any of the Chapter/Sections already posted.

 

 

I would also invite you to rad Lin Yutang's Inner Chapters.  It is on-line.

 

And, of course, there is Nina's translation.

 

Surely you remember Nina?

 

Nina is unforgettable I notice her forum is gone.  Is her translation still online? If so, I'll find it, and the LinYutang as well, guessing terebess is a good place to look.

 

I had a chance to review the thread titles in this Section; I'll use the Mair ones for anything I cant resist saying, lol; likely I'll just click the heart or sad from time to time - to express agreement or disagreement - without further unnecessary comment.

 

I still think ZZ is extraneous to LZ, at least I think I still think that. Time will tell, and I remain open minded.

 

Thanks!

[Marblehead]

Yes, Nina's Chuang Tzu translation is still on-line.

 

Lin's is at Terebess last time I looked.

 

I would still enjoy your comments whenever you think Chuang Tzu may have drifted from the philosophy of Lao Tzu.  That is, anything besides government stuff.  Chuang Tzu didn't say as many nice things about government as Lao Tzu did.

 

[dawei]

On 7/12/2018 at 11:05 AM, rene said:

Nina is unforgettable I notice her forum is gone.  Is her translation still online? If so, I'll find it, and the LinYutang as well, guessing terebess is a good place to look.

 

I had a chance to review the thread titles in this Section; I'll use the Mair ones for anything I cant resist saying, lol; likely I'll just click the heart or sad from time to time - to express agreement or disagreement - without further unnecessary comment.

 

I still think ZZ is extraneous to LZ, at least I think I still think that. Time will tell, and I remain open minded.

 

Thanks!

 

Agree on Nina 

 

But wonder if ZZ isn't LZ grown old !  

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

But wonder if ZZ isn't LZ grown old !  

Not in my opinion.  Too many differences in their personal philosophies, especially about governments.

 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

I myself am partial to "The Old Fisherman" I just love how he takes Confucius to school pretty much

[Fa Xin]

I've always been a Lao Tzu guy, but today I ordered a book by Chuang Tzu.  I've actually never really dived into ZZ.

Looking forward to reading it and keeping MH in mind while I do

 

 

[wandelaar]

4 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

I've always been a Lao Tzu guy, but today I ordered a book by Chuang Tzu.  I've actually never really dived into ZZ.

Looking forward to reading it and keeping MH in mind while I do

 

Let us know what you think/feel about it while reading. It's a pity that discussions about the Chuang tzu seem to have died out along with the dead of Marblehead.

[OldDog]

12 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Looking forward to reading it and keeping MH in mind while I do

 

Yeah, sometime back Marblehead had inspired me to take up reading Chuangtse and I do not regret it. Chuangtse is a more difficult read ... If for no other reason than word density. So, I think it helps if one has some grounding in Laotse before attempting Chuangtse.

 

I really wish Lin Yutang's The Wisdom of Laotse was still in print. No secret that LYT is my favorite reference. The reason his book is such a gem is that each chapter of Laotse is accompanied by excerpts from Chuangtse. This makes for a really great read as ideas in Laotse and Chuangtse are easily compared and contrasted. As such, I think it would be really helpful for those new explorers of Taoist writings.

 

That said, at some point Chuangtse really needs to be read on its own. I had read Burton Watson's translation but I am ever grateful to Marblehead for introducing me to Victor Mair's translation.

[Fa Xin]

8 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

Yeah, sometime back Marblehead had inspired me to take up reading Chuangtse and I do not regret it. Chuangtse is a more difficult read ... If for no other reason than word density. So, I think it helps if one has some grounding in Laotse before attempting Chuangtse.

 

I really wish Lin Yutang's The Wisdom of Laotse was still in print. No secret that LYT is my favorite reference. The reason his book is such a gem is that each chapter of Laotse is accompanied by excerpts from Chuangtse. This makes for a really great read as ideas in Laotse and Chuangtse are easily compared and contrasted. As such, I think it would be really helpful for those new explorers of Taoist writings.

 

That said, at some point Chuangtse really needs to be read on its own. I had read Burton Watson's translation but I am ever grateful to Marblehead for introducing me to Victor Mair's translation.

 

Thanks Olddog. I probably should’ve asked which is the best translation, but I ordered one by “Martin Palmer”. Oh well, it will be good to compare them later. 

 

It does seem like ZZ should be attempted after some basic understanding of LT happens. Very good point about word density.  

 

I’m looking forward to the stories... the book should arrive tomorrow. 

[OldDog]

5 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

... one by “Martin Palmer”....

 

Well now, I don't know Martin Palmer but a quick Google seems to suggest he is more of a comparative/applied religion kind of guy. He certainly has credentials.  i see he has some videos out there. I think I will watch some to get a better idea of where he is coming from. Let us know how your read goes.

[wandelaar]

When you like the Chuang tzu you will probably want to have several translations anyhow. And I recommend reading some modern philosophical commentaries too. The latter will seem boring and pedantic compared to the lively style of Chuang tzu but over time they will help to see through the many levels and shades of meaning of the Chuang tzu.

[Fa Xin]

On 7/2/2019 at 9:28 AM, OldDog said:

Chuangtse is a more difficult read ... If for no other reason than word density. So, I think it helps if one has some grounding in Laotse before attempting Chuangtse.

 

 

I definitely see this. The book arrived today and I started reading the stories... It is a dense read for sure. I find myself reading a paragraph 3 times before it finally sinks in.  "There is a fish named Vast, he is 7,000 miles wide" ... Much different than the DDJ

 

I'm enjoying it so far though.  This will be a deep study.

[wandelaar]

Lots of times Chuang tzu doesn't take a definitive position himself, and in these cases this refusal to take a stand paradoxically appears to be his position. At other times I suspect that he is just joking and making fun of his more serious readers.

[ReturnDragon]

On 7/3/2019 at 2:32 PM, wandelaar said:

Lots of times Chuang tzu doesn't take a definitive position himself

Yes, Chuang Tzu was right.
He says: "I rather use some other's words. It is because no one believes what I say."

[Mig]

On 2/17/2020 at 12:58 PM, ReturnDragon said:

Yes, Chuang Tzu was right.
He says: "I rather use some other's words. It is because no one believes what I say."

Where did  莊子 Zhuāng zǐ said that? And what was the context in the section where he mentioned that sentence?

 I think you meant ZZ Ch 27.1
故曰無言。言無言，終身言，未嘗言；終身不言，未嘗不言

Therefore I say, we must have no-words! With words that are no-words, you may speak all your life long, and you
will never have said anything. Burton Watson translation

Edited July 18 by Mig