Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section A

[Marblehead]

1. Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease:

 

Section A

 

In the Northern Ocean there is a fish, the name of which is Kun - I do not know how many li (500 meters) in size. It changes into a bird with the name of Peng, the back of which is (also) - I do not know how many li in extent. When this bird rouses itself and flies, its wings are like clouds all round the sky. When the sea is moved (so as to bear it along), it prepares to remove to the Southern Ocean. The Southern Ocean is the Pool of Heaven.

 

There is the (book called) Qi Xie, a record of marvels. We have in it these words: 'When the phang is removing to the Southern Ocean it flaps (its wings) on the water for 3000 li. Then it ascends on a whirlwind 90,000 li, and it rests only at the end of six months.' (But similar to this is the movement of the breezes which we call) the horses of the fields, of the dust (which quivers in the sunbeams), and of living things as they are blown against one another by the air. Is its azure the proper colour of the sky? Or is it occasioned by its distance and illimitable extent? If one were looking down (from above), the very same appearance would just meet his view.

 

And moreover, (to speak of) the accumulation of water; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support a large boat. Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat. Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; the water is shallow and the boat is large. (So it is with) the accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings. Therefore (the peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient. As it seemed to bear the blue sky on its back, and there was nothing to obstruct or arrest its course, it could pursue its way to the South.

 

A cicada and a little dove laughed at it, saying, 'We make an effort and fly towards an elm or sapanwood tree; and sometimes before we reach it, we can do no more but drop to the ground. Of what use is it for this (creature) to rise 90,000 li, and make for the South?' He who goes to the grassy suburbs, returning to the third meal (of the day), will have his belly as full as when he set out; he who goes to a distance of 100 li will have to pound his grain where he stops for the night; he who goes a thousand li, will have to carry with him provisions for three months. What should these two small creatures know about the matter? The knowledge of that which is small does not reach to that which is great; (the experience of) a few years does not reach to that of many. How do we know that it is so? The mushroom of a morning does not know (what takes place between) the beginning and end of a month; the short-lived cicada does not know (what takes place between) the spring and autumn. These are instances of a short term of life. In the south of Chu there is the (tree) called Ming-ling, whose spring is 500 years, and its autumn the same; in high antiquity there was that called Da-chun, whose spring was 8000 years, and its autumn the same. And Peng Zu is the one man renowned to the present day for his length of life: if all men were (to wish) to match him, would they not be miserable?

 

In the questions put by Tang to Ji we have similar statements: 'In the bare and barren north there is the dark and vast ocean - the Pool of Heaven. In it there is a fish, several thousand li in breadth, while no one knows its length. Its name is the kun. There is (also) a bird named the peng; its back is like the Tai mountain, while its wings are like clouds all round the sky. On a whirlwind it mounts upwards as on the whorls of a goat's horn for 90,000 li, till, far removed from the cloudy vapours, it bears on its back the blue sky, and then it shapes its course for the South, and proceeds to the ocean there.' A quail by the side of a marsh laughed at it, and said, 'Where is it going to? I spring up with a bound, and come down again when I have reached but a few fathoms, and then fly about among the brushwood and bushes; and this is the perfection of flying. Where is that creature going to?' This shows the difference between the small and the great.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[konchog uma]

this is chapter one from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables"

 

I have a pretty beat up PDF scan of it that it is hard to cut and paste from, so i will try my best to correct errors, but please be forgiving if there are some spaces and random numbers or stuff i missed.

 

 

 

In the darkness of the Northern Ocean, there is a fish named

K'un. The K'un is so big that no one knows how many thou-

sands of tricents [three hundred paces] its body extends . After it

metamorphoses into a bird, its name becomes P'eng. The P'eng

is so huge that no one knows how many thousands of tricents its

back stretches. Rousing itself to flight, its wings are like clouds

suspended in the sky. When the seas stir, the P'eng prepares for

its journey to the Southern Ocean, the Lake of Heaven.

In the words of The Drolleries of Ch'i, a record of marvels, "On

its journey to the Southern Ocean, the P'eng beats the water

with its wings for three thousand tricents, then it rises up on a

whirlwind to a height of ninety thousand tricents and travels on

the jet streams of late summer."

There galloping gusts and motes of dust are blown about by

the breath of living organisms. Is azure the true color of the sky ?

Or is the sky so distant that its farthest limits can never be

reached? When the P'eng looks down at the sky from above, it

must appear just the same as when we look up.

 

A cicada and a dovelet laughed at the P'eng, saying, "Wings

aflutter, we fly up until we land in an elm or a dalbergia tree.

Sometimes, when we don't make it, we just fall back to the

ground and that's that. What's the use of flying up ninety

thousand tricents to go south? "

If you 're going on an outing to the verdant suburbs you only

need to take along three meals and you'll still come back with

a full stomach . If you're traveling a hundred tricents, you need to

husk enough grain for an overnight stay. But if you're journeying

a thousand tricents, you've got to set aside three months' worth

of grain. What do these two creatures know ?

Small knowledge is no match for great knowledge, nor is

a short lifespan a match for a long one. How do we know this is so?

The mushroom that sprouts in the morning and dies by

evening doesn't know the difference between night and day. The

locust doesn't know the difference between spring and autumn.

These are examples of short lifespans. In the southern part of

the state of Ch'u, there is a tortoise called Dark Spirit for whom

spring and autumn each lasts five hundred years . In high antiq-

uity, there was a large cedrela tree for which spring and autumn

each lasted eight thousand years. These are examples of long

lifespans. Nowadays Progenitor P'eng is famous for his more

than seven hundred years of longevity. Isn't it pathetic that

people try to emulate him?

 

A question put by T'ang, the first emperor of the Shang

dynasty, to his wise minister Chi is similar. T'ang asked, "Do up,

down, and the four directions have a limit? "

`Beyond their limitlessness there is another limitlessness ,

said Chi. "In the barren north there is a dark sea, the Lake of

Heaven. In the sea there is a fish named K'un that is several

thousand tricents in breadth, but no one knows its length.

There is also a bird named P'eng whose back is like Mount T'ai and

whose wings are like clouds suspended in the sky. It rises upon a

twisting whirlwind to a height of ninety thousand tricents,

pierces the clouds and then heads south on its journey to

the distant Southern Ocean with the blue sky touching it s

back.

'A marsh sparrow laughs at the P'eng, saying, 'Where does

he think he's going? I spring up into the air and come back down

after not much more than a few yards. Flitting about amidst the

bushes and brambles, this is the ultimate in flying! So where does

he think he's going?'

" This shows the difference between the great and the small ."

Thus there are those whose knowledge qualifies them for a

minor bureaucratic appointment, those whose conduct is suit-

able for overseeing a village, and those whose virtue befits them

for rulership and who can win the confidence of an entire

country. Their self-estimation is like that of the marsh sparrow,

so Master Sung Jung smiled at them complacently.

Here was a man who would neither feel flattered if the whole

world praised him nor frustrated if the whole world censured

him. Master Sung was able to be like this simply because he

could tell the difference between what was intrinsic and what was

extrinsic, because he made a distinction between honor and

disgrace. Although he was not embroiled in worldly affairs, still

there was something that he was unable to achieve .

Master Lieh could ride upon the wind wherever he pleased ,

drifting marvelously, and returning only after fifteen days. Al-

though he was not embroiled in the pursuit of blessings and thus

was able to dispense with walking, still there was something that

he had to rely upon.

Supposing there were someone who could ride upon the

truth of heaven and earth, who could chariot upon the transfor-

mations of the six vital breaths and thereby go wandering in

infinity, what would he have to rely on?

Therefore, it is said that the ultimate man has no self, the

spiritual person has no accomplishment, and the sage has no

name.

[konchog uma]

I think that the K'un is a reference to the descending or conception vessel, and the P'eng is a reference to the ascending or governing vessel. When master chuang says that the p'eng rest after ascending to those heights in the lake of heaven, i think he is talking about raising ones energy to the upper dantian and being an achieved spiritual person. I think that the amount of times and distances he is talking about is absurd but is reference to it taking a long time for a person to sublimate and guide their energies to the point that they can be a person who has developed Shen in their upper dantian.

 

When he says that the insects and the birds are saying "why bother, i fly a little bit and its ultimate" he is, i think, talking about peoples attitudes towards spiritual progress, saying "what is the point of sitting and cultivating energy, i dont do that and i am just fine". He further makes this point with his dialogue between emperor Tang and minister Chi at the end.

 

So i don't think master chuang is talking about birds and fish but about cultivation.

[Marblehead]

So i don't think master chuang is talking about birds and fish but about cultivation.

 

Hehehe. No, he is not talking about birds and fish. (I do though.) Thanks for the share.

[doc benway]

I like the cultivation allegory.

 

I also think there is another message here and that is one of the absolute and the relative. There is a lot of discussion of the ridiculously large and a comparison to the very small and nearly trivial. There are questions of relative worth, which I think are rhetorical questions. This leads us to think about the very great and the very small, it encourages us to question our tendency to make judgements and to favor the great over the small. It also distinguishes the high from the low and challenges us to make value judgements regarding the Yin and Yang manifestations of Dao. It makes us think about how small and insignificant we are but, at the same time, the importance and value of all life, irrespective of our own human preferences and biases. At each level of magnitude of existence there is still life, seen and seeing with a different perspective. And often, that perspective and perhaps even the recognition of life and intelligence can be incomprehensible to other perspectives.

 

I really like this: "Therefore, it is said that the ultimate man has no self, the

spiritual person has no accomplishment, and the sage has no

name."

The ultimate man has no self - a direct experience of the One-ness of Dao, shows us that the experience of self transcends the trivial, superficial illusion of individual human self-ness. The spiritual person has no accomplishment - for who is there to claim success? And that success is nothing more than being what we all are. The sage has no name - you cannot isolate and limit the sage for the sage is simply what Dao is doing here and now and is always in flux and will soon be gone. So how to put a name on it?

 

Anyway, just some stream of consciousness on my lunch break. Nice to be looking at the Zhuang Zi.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I guess some might say that this is the first chapter in order to say: don't forget about this lesson when you read these stories. Their meanings can be perceived differently depending on what kind of bird is reading them.

[konchog uma]

I also think there is another message here and that is one of the absolute and the relative. There is a lot of discussion of the ridiculously large and a comparison to the very small and nearly trivial. There are questions of relative worth, which I think are rhetorical questions. This leads us to think about the very great and the very small, it encourages us to question our tendency to make judgements and to favor the great over the small. It also distinguishes the high from the low and challenges us to make value judgements regarding the Yin and Yang manifestations of Dao. It makes us think about how small and insignificant we are but, at the same time, the importance and value of all life, irrespective of our own human preferences and biases. At each level of magnitude of existence there is still life, seen and seeing with a different perspective. And often, that perspective and perhaps even the recognition of life and intelligence can be incomprehensible to other perspectives.

 

yeah good points! i think he is saying too that those offering the opinion "i dont cultivate and i feel ultimate" are insignificant like insects but cultivation itself is so awesome it can't be measured.. no one is sure how big it is or how awesome it is hahaha

 

i like that he says the sky they look at looks the same from below as from above, like he is saying what they fly in (dao?) is the same from all angles but their capacity for flight is so different

 

loaded with metaphors!

 

Anyway, just some stream of consciousness on my lunch break. Nice to be looking at the Zhuang Zi.

 

i like your thoughts, thanks for sharing!

 

it is definitely a breath of fresh air to get deep into this text! i am loving it already

[Harmonious Emptiness]

In line with what Steve said, I think one of the more ground-level meanings of this story is in regards to envy: don't worry about trying to be a grand master, just do YOU in where you are.

 

I think we could post the next one? We can always come back to this along the way..

[Marblehead]

Thanks everyone. Nice thoughts there Steve. Yes, relativity and perspective. And expectation too. Hehehe. If we look for little it will be easily found; if we look for great at least there is potential for attaining it.

 

I think we could post the next one? We can always come back to this along the way..

 

Hehehe. Don't rush me. Actually, because of the time difference amongst members here, (they are all around the world) I had already planned for each chapter one section per day untill the chapter is complete, wait a day or two for others to catch up and make comments or ask questions, then start the next chapter.

 

Anyway,

 

"loaded with metaphors!"

 

Indeed. They are throughout the entire text. And the beauty of that is that different people will grasp what is being said at different levels and they all may very well be totally correct in their understanding.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

Chapter One

北冥有魚，其名為鯤。鯤之大，不知其幾千里也。化而為鳥，其名為鵬。鵬之背，不知其幾千里也；怒而飛，其翼若垂天之雲。是鳥也，海運則將徙於南冥。南冥者，天池也。

 

oops...

Sorry I was late for the party.

 

In the Northern sea, there is a fish. Its name is called Kun. Its gigantic size, no one knows how many thousand miles. Then it was transformed into a bird. Its name is call Peng. Its back is few thousand miles wide. Once it's mad, it spreads its wings seems like the clouds in the sky. This bird can fly up ninety thousand miles high. When the sea roars, it will move to the Southern sea. The Southern sea is a natural gigantic pond.

 

 

What was ZZ saying here....??? Why was he boasting like that by making everything so big...???

Edited October 18, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

edit:

 

how to use PM button..

 

....

Edited November 1, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

 

What was ZZ saying here....??? Why was he boasting like that by making everything so big...???

 

That is his way of making it self-apparent the difference between the big and the small; the great and the little; the near-sighted and the far-sighted; long life and short life. Yes, all very dualistic.

[ChiDragon]

HE...

Well, sorry. This is the beginning of Chapter One. It is

about the fish and the bird.

Edited October 18, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Can we not comment on more than one section at a time? The DDJ went well in the same way, no? I respect that you're taking some responsibility for the success of this new forum.. Wouldn't it make sense to be flexible in letting it grow though Mr. Marbles? Sorry, the sub-forum seemed to be of the forum, rather than any one person's responsibility, so I didn't mean that towards you or anticipate that it would put any pressure on you personally..

 

Can I not do it the way I wish? Do you think I should just copy/paste the entire Chuang Tzu an let everyone else comment to whatever section they wish to comment to?

 

I do enjoy suggestions and recommendations but I feel that as it is I who is doing the work I should be allowed to do it my way. And I think my way is best and this is exactly how we did the TTC. We started out with Chapter One and progressed to Chapter Eighty-one and every now and again someone would make additional comments to a chapter that had been silent for a while?

 

I appreciate your and everyone else's participation. But let's be real. This is my project. I had the idea of doing this nearly a year ago. I requested to the moderation team to create a sub-forum for this venture. I made sure I had the three translations on file so I could easily reference them in order to speak to questions or comments.

 

Anyhow, if you wish to do your own then go ahead on but please do not do it in this sub-forum or I will request the moderation team to remove the posts. This will be an organized effort and not degrade into something that becomes a dead issue because of all the bickering.

[Marblehead]

HE...

Well, sorry. This is the beginning of Chapter One. It is

about the fish and the bird.

 

I am so happy you are paying attention. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

That is his way of making it self-apparent the difference between the big and the small; the great and the little; the near-sighted and the far-sighted; long life and short life. Yes, all very dualistic.

 

Well, dualistic was heavily emphasized in the TTC. I think ZZ's philosophy was not based on duality. Some scholars thought ZZ making everything so big was to indicate that he has a broad mind and sees things differently than an ordinary person.

 

 

PS...

I am reflecting the views of the native scholars here. It may not be acceptable to western thinking. If anyone feel uncomfortable with it, please don't hesitate to stop me. Peace.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I have to think with Western thought because I am that.

 

Well, dualistic was heavily emphasized in the TTC. I think ZZ's philosophy was not based on duality. Some scholars thought ZZ making everything so big was to indicate that he has a broad mind and sees things differently than an ordinary person.

 

I would argue strongly against this view. However, I would agree that most of what Chuang Tzu wrote was designed to be non-dualistic. But he frequently used dualism in order to make a point or to establish differences between this and that.

 

PS...

I am reflecting the views of the native scholars here. It may not be acceptable to western thinking. If anyone feel uncomfortable with it, please don't hesitate to stop me. Peace.

 

Yes, we are going to have just as much fun here as we did with the TTC. No doubt in my mind.

[XieJia]

oops...

Sorry I was late for the party.

What was ZZ saying here....??? Why was he boasting like that by making everything so big...???

 

You guys are actually doing it the hardcore way from Chinese?

While others just use the English translation.

But how would we know about the hardcore?

 

Borrowing an aspect from Steve's and Anavatva well written post;

 

One could also see Kun as the Ultimate Yin

Peng as the manifestation from that Ultimate Yang

 

Making it so big also widened the Reader's mind to allows Easy Wandering;

as to ask the question with the cicida.

 

"Don't think one could understand the Great" - breaks the frame of mind. It could be free.

Forget about Big and Small, go back to the Dao and work from there.

 

 

This is my feeling for this part.

 

P.S. For esoteric, please read this chapter carefully.

My question, does Kun and Peng knows what it's like to be small?

 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

 

P.S. For esoteric, please read this chapter carefully.

My question, does Kun and Peng knows what it's like to be small?

 

Excellent post!

 

As I stated, I will be using Legge's translation for the opening post for each chapter/section. I would be pleased with any other translator's work in order to make a point just as we did with the TTC. I might even throw in some Lin Yutang now and then as I really enjoy his writing style.

 

Excellent point in what I quoted above. That is why I mentioned relativity and perspective in an above post. We need talk about these concepts or at least consider them as we go through the chapters.

[XieJia]

PS...

I am reflecting the views of the native scholars here. It may not be acceptable to western thinking. If anyone feel uncomfortable with it, please don't hesitate to stop me. Peace.

 

Don't worry, I won't hesitate but also with eastern thinking.

 

Wot! What did I just say?

 

@Harmonious

Nice to see the energy, but I do agree with Marble; he's the boss here.

Lol, in my opinion. The Zhuangzi have to be taken in lightly but also thoroughly or you'll miss the laugh.

 

@Steve

That's very meaningful lunchbreak

Makes one wonder what you do for a living. <- Rhetorical (Save the world?)

 

@Marble

The course? Captain!

 

Sorry, I am just happy.

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

My question, does Kun and Peng knows what it's like to be small?

 

ZZ was only using Kun and Peng as objects for his illustration. ZZ was written differently than the TTC. It is all about the feeling of ZZ's and his philosophy but not about the Kun and Peng.

 

ZZ's view about Tao is different from LaoTze. He told LaoTze's idea about Tao and come up with his own philosophy.

[XieJia]

ZZ was only using Kun and Peng as objects for his illustration. ZZ was written differently than the TTC. It is all about the feeling of ZZ's and his philosophy but not about the Kun and Peng.

 

ZZ's view about Tao is different from LaoTze. He told LaoTze's idea about Tao and come up with his own philosophy.

 

Chi, It's a question that I don't need an answer but that's thoughtful of you.

 

I am also not talking about Kun and Peng.

 

[Marblehead]

Chi, It's a question that I don't need an answer but that's thoughtful of you.

 

I am also not talking about Kun and Peng.

 

 

Yep. Sections B & C will show why he (Chuang Tzu) set the stage the way he did. He really hasn't presented his most important concepts yet - just setting the stage.

[Apech]

First off , I like the way Marblehead is setting about this. One section at a time with a chance to discuss. Thanks to him for taking the time and care to do this.

 

Anyone know if Kun and P'eng have any literal meanings in Chinese?

 

I have a feeling that ZZ is talking about myth and abstract concepts ... big ideas if you like and what you get from them and what you don't get from them. I heard an astrophysicist on the radio saying yesterday that the numbers they deal with are so incredibly huge that they are completely meaningless to most humans.

 

I need to read the original again I think ... ths was off the top of my head (not a very big head).

[Marblehead]

Anyone know if Kun and P'eng have any literal meanings in Chinese?

 

It is my understanding that he made this up himself (based on introductions to his work and critiques of his work). Our Chinese language readers might be able to share light on this.