Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section A

[Harmonious Emptiness]

@Marble: ok, if there's no backseat driving allowed then I'll just put on my seatbelt and enjoy the scenery ..

 

@Xie Jia.. good point about possible representations of yin and yang. There's no doubt that Chuang Tzu understood the mysteries at this level, so it would seem natural that his images would represent them.

 

This story reads differently depending on which angle you look at it from, and I believe Chuang Tzu did so intentionally to break people's need for everything to make sense by having contradictory interpretations which all make sense at the same time.

 

I think that on a certain level K'un and P'eng do not know what it means to be small, as part of the meaning is that the small should not think that they understand being big, and the big should know that the small also have what they need for themselves.

 

P'eng is the lofty mind of a sage, vast and spacious, but those who only live in structural concepts can't understand this person's behavior; while at the same time the quail also represents the sage who wanders freely looking up at the big and powerful and laughing at people's desire to be like them.

 

So, P'eng is both the sage who does understand the petty jealousies of the small enough to avoid them; and the powerful who does not know what it's like to be a sage.

 

This also is in line about them being yin and yang, changing, and having yin within yang and yang in yin.

[Marblehead]

 

This also is in line about them being yin and yang, changing, and having yin within yang and yang in yin.

Great post. Thanks for sharing.

[ChiDragon]

Anyone know if Kun and P'eng have any literal meanings in Chinese?

 

All characters do have meanings. When a character was used as a name, it could have the meaning of the character or something in relation with the object that was being named.

 

FYI

Kun and P'eng were a legendary big fish and huge bird respectively.

[XieJia]

Anyone know if Kun and P'eng have any literal meanings in Chinese?

 

Good point Apech; the meanings according to dictionaries however we could look at the Symbology.

For the non-Chinese reader.

 

鯤 Kun

鵬 Peng

 

Kun can be divide into yu (魚) and kun (昆)

yu means fish and kun can mean elder brother or together.

 

Interestingly kun could be divide up further into two parts ri sun (日) over bi compare (比)

Kun symbol is two man under the sun.

Bi is also the name of the eighth Hexagram of the Yijing (IChing); which symbol is

Water Over Earth (Yin)

 

Peng can be separated into

朋 (peng) and 鳥 (niao)

Peng can is two moons side by side

Niao is birds.

 

@Chi, Lien, Dawei

As for the interpretation; I will leave it to you guys.

 

@Harmonious

 

 

Addition:

Emperor Tang's name means Hot Water;

Separated into Water and Yang.

Li means thorny, knotty or ticklish.

 

So tell me, how could we ever think about knowing ChuangTzu?

Edited October 18, 2011 by XieJia

[ChiDragon]

While others just use the English translation.

But how would we know about the hardcore?

 

Here are my sources for hardcore:

 

The original Zhuangzi:

ZZ Chapter 1

 

Interpretation for the Kun fish and Peng bird:

Kun and Peng

 

 

PS...

@Xie Jia

Please leave YiJing out of here. It has nothing to do with ZZ here.

 

The character for Kun in YiJing is not the same. It is this character: 坤(kun). Please don't use pingyin or phonetics to assume a character to confuse yourself and others. Thanks...

Edited October 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

 

Anyone know if Kun and P'eng have any literal meanings in Chinese?

 

 

Peng 鵬 is encountered periodically in martial arts form names.

It generally refers to expansive postures with bold and rising energy - wings spread.

Common in jian forms especially.

[ChiDragon]

Peng 鵬 is encountered periodically in martial arts form names.

It generally refers to expansive postures with bold and rising energy - wings spread.

Common in jian forms especially.

 

Again, another Ping Yin mistake.

 

The character you were referring to is 掤(peng)

[XieJia]

@Xie Jia

Please leave YiJing out of here. It has nothing to do with ZZ here.

 

The character for Kun in YiJing is not the same. It is this character: 坤(kun). Please don't use pingyin or phonetics to assume a character to confuse yourself and others. Thanks...

 

It will be nice if you would take time to read my post.

 

I used bi 比 from kun 昆 inside kun 鯤. And and didn't mention anything about this kun 坤.

I mentioned the eighth hexagram and not the second one.

this is 坤

 

this is 比

 

I used bi 比

 

 

I didn't used any assumption from pingyin or phonetics, you made me sad.

I don't mind disagreements but please read my post properly before making a reply.

But yes, thank you for the thought of correcting my mistake.

 

It is true that Yijing (IChing) is not related to ZhuangZi anyhow; I simply trying to present the imagery that it possible to see in nature of Kun, in terms of how the Chinese language developed as a whole.

Edited October 19, 2011 by XieJia

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, it was very easily to be misunderstood each other. Especially, things are not very clearly presented while introducing something else outside of the main subject.

 

PS....

Sad...!!! Why should you let a little thing like somebody else's stupid mistake hurts you...??? You were joking right...???

 

Cheer up...

Edited October 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Good point Apech; the meanings according to dictionaries however we could look at the Symbology.

For the non-Chinese reader.

 

鯤 Kun

鵬 Peng

 

Kun can be divide into yu (魚) and kun (昆)

yu means fish and kun can mean elder brother or together.

 

Interestingly kun could be divide up further into two parts ri sun (日) over bi compare (比)

Kun symbol is two man under the sun.

Bi is also the name of the eighth Hexagram of the Yijing (IChing); which symbol is

Water Over Earth (Yin)

 

Peng can be separated into

朋 (peng) and 鳥 (niao)

Peng can is two moons side by side

Niao is birds.

 

@Chi, Lien, Dawei

As for the interpretation; I will leave it to you guys.

 

@Harmonious

 

 

Addition:

Emperor Tang's name means Hot Water;

Separated into Water and Yang.

Li means thorny, knotty or ticklish.

 

So tell me, how could we ever think about knowing ChuangTzu?

 

Thanks Xie Jia. These images do help to bridge the gap. I wouldn't underestimate the possibility of these correlation chains. Just look at 5 element tables to see how things connect at very subtle levels in many things Taoist.

 

I also wouldn't fully discount a poet using similar sounding names to signify something that does not have the same meaning. Do Chinese not use puns as well?

[Cosmo]

Just as the quail, the conclusions that we make could be entirely different if we were within a different body. The conclusions that we make could be entirely different if we had a different past. The conclusions that we spend much thoughtful time deliberating on could be entirely different if we realized that there is always more truth of the matter to be realized.

[doc benway]

Again, another Ping Yin mistake.

 

The character you were referring to is 掤(peng)

What you keep doing is called in English, going off half cocked.

 

I am not referring to 掤(peng)

I am referring to 鵬(peng)

You may research the names of Tai Ji Jian postures and Ba Gua Zhang postures if you aren't familiar with the use of 鵬(peng) in the Nei Jia. One common posture in jian practice is 大 鵬 展 翅. There are otheres.

 

You have this annoying habit of always assuming the other guy is wrong.

Why not ask, rather than correct (incorrectly)?

I actually saw your incorrect correction of XieJia's post before noticing your incorrect correction of mine!

 

[ChiDragon]

Peng 鵬 is encountered periodically in martial arts form names.

 

Well, based on the above quote was leading me to think it as 掤(peng).

 

 

What you keep doing is called in English, going off half cocked.

 

I am not referring to 掤(peng)

I am referring to 鵬(peng)

You may research the names of Tai Ji Jian postures and Ba Gua Zhang postures if you aren't familiar with the use of 鵬(peng) in the Nei Jia. One common posture in jian practice is 大 鵬 展 翅. There are otheres.

 

If you write out the whole phrase 大 鵬 展 翅(big Peng spreads its wings), then I would have known exactly what you meant by it. The 大鵬(Big Peng) is the same Bird that was mentioned in ZZ Chapter One.

 

Nothing personal....!!!

[XieJia]

Just as the quail, the conclusions that we make could be entirely different if we were within a different body. The conclusions that we make could be entirely different if we had a different past. The conclusions that we spend much thoughtful time deliberating on could be entirely different if we realized that there is always more truth of the matter to be realized.

 

Lol, Cosmo. Whether you intended or it. What you wrote here summarized this part quite well.

By not making conclusions, we may be able to comprehend it instead.

 

@Harmonious

It's to do with the Chinese character; we can't make any assumptions. As to puns, the Chinese has them; but as in any language one needs to be quite familiar with the language.

 

@Chi

No hard feelings, I was sad that you didn't took time to read my post properly before commenting that's all. I don't mind people correct me; I think it's a good thing . Why should I let other mistake hurt me? I don't but I don't want it to hurt you either. Especially if it's from what I wrote.

 

@Steve

Maybe we need to make the fonts bigger so it makes the chinese character easier to see.

I am not actually familiar with the different energy/form practice; but I do think many master in the past would have access to Zhuangzi.

 

I am not familiar with the Tibetan Buddhism practice or Dzogchen; but from what I believe, Peng also have some link with the Garuda. Could anybody tell us or share ideas or comment from it?

 

[Marblehead]

Really great discussions so far folks!!!

 

Just based on the questions and comments to this first section shows the depth of The Chuang Tzu and how challenging it is going to be to grasp what the man has said for us to consider.

 

No, we are not talking about the birds and the bees; or the birds and the fish. We are talking about something much deeper than animal instincts.

 

This section of Chapter One is a fanciful story that on the surface is totally unbelievable. Forget the story and understand the concepts.

 

Steve did an excellent job in his first post.

 

Sections B and C (forthcoming) support and build on the concepts in Section A. We will miss much of the next two sections if we have not grasped these early concepts.

 

I thank everyone who has particpated. (I giggled at the misundersandings and attempts to correct others. But Y'all did work it out well and I appreciate that.)

 

I actually anticipate a lot of questions and misunderstanding of The Chuang Tzu as we go through the chapters. I think this is good though as long as we can keep the discussions positive.

 

I will post Section B around my noon time today and try to do the postings the same way all through the study.

 

Again, thanks to everyone who is participating or even just reading and remaining in the background.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

In the Northern sea, there is a fish. Its name is called Kun. Its gigantic size, no one knows how many thousand miles. Then it was transformed into a bird. Its name is call Peng. Its back is few thousand miles wide. Once it's mad, it spreads its wings seems like the clouds in the sky. This bird can fly up ninety thousand miles high. When the sea roars, it will move to the Southern sea. The Southern sea is a natural gigantic pond.

 

Some scholars thought this was the theme of the chapter:

The mentioning of the size of the Kun fish and Pend bird was to show that ZZ has a broad mind with a panoramic vision. Especially, when he had the Peng bird flew 90,000 li(Chinese mile) above the sky, can you imagine how far and how much one can see when you are high above the world. Then, Peng bird flew across the world from the Northern to the Southern sea so one can see what else is in the other part of the world.

 

What he was suggesting is not to place oneself in a small pit but to expose oneself to see more to expand one's wisdom. The contrast was depicted by comparing the broad vision of the Peng bird and the narrow visions of the cicada and the little dove.

Edited October 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Some scholars thought this was the theme of the chapter:

The mentioning of the size of the Kun fish and Pend bird was to show that ZZ has a broad mind with a panoramic vision. Especially, when he had the Peng bird flew 90,000 li(Chinese mile) above the sky, can you imagine how far and how much one can see when you are high above the world. Then, Peng bird flew across the world from the Northern to the Southern sea so one can see what else is in the other part of the world.

 

The only way I think one could take this understanding would be if they did not read the entire Chuang Tzu or they just didn't understand what he said.

 

Actually, Chuang Tzu was very humble and critical of himself.

[Apech]

Whoah I seem to have precipitated an argument by asking what Peng and Ku meant. Thanks for the detail by the way. Funny that we should start by debating the meaning and interpretation of terms. What does it all mean? Maybe this question is actually what this is about. Is ZZ saying in a way ... I can give you fantastic stories about mythical entities of enormous size ... but what would that actually do for you? Humans need truth on a human scale.

 

I'm not convinced that this is about inner alchemy - I think its about the subjectivity of truth.

[XieJia]

precipitated an argument by asking what Peng and Ku meant. Thanks for the detail by the way.

Funny that we should start by debating the meaning and interpretation of terms.

What does it all mean?

 

I'm not convinced that this is about inner alchemy - I think its about the subjectivity of truth.

 

Hi Apech,

 

There isn't really an argument just misunderstanding.

There isn't really any debate just presentation of the symbology.

There isn't really subjectivity in the truth but subjectivity in each one of us.

We all see what we want to see aren't we?

 

As for what I presented is not relate to ZZ at all; it's just about the Fish and the Bird.

And how others may see the symbol they may or may not represent.

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Whoah I seem to have precipitated an argument by asking what Peng and Ku meant. Thanks for the detail by the way. Funny that we should start by debating the meaning and interpretation of terms. What does it all mean? Maybe this question is actually what this is about. Is ZZ saying in a way ... I can give you fantastic stories about mythical entities of enormous size ... but what would that actually do for you? Humans need truth on a human scale.

 

I'm not convinced that this is about inner alchemy - I think its about the subjectivity of truth.

 

You got that right...!!!

Now, you are really thinking into the chapter. All the ZZ Chapters are not that simple as they seem. It has many hidden metaphoric thoughts.

 

 

@ XieJia...

Argument here means exchange ideas and debate.

Edited October 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[XieJia]

Chi

 

Only that the perceived argument in this chapter is not an argument.

[Apech]

And moreover, (to speak of) the accumulation of water; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support a large boat. Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat. Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; the water is shallow and the boat is large. (So it is with) the accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings. Therefore (the peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient. As it seemed to bear the blue sky on its back, and there was nothing to obstruct or arrest its course, it could pursue its way to the South.

 

This bit seems to be saying that its not size itself that matters (thankfully ) but relative size. So everything needs to be understood in relation to something else. Its no good looking at a thing as just a thing ... you need to see it in relation to another thing or its environment.

 

So relative subjective truth again.

 

Yes/No ???????????

[Marblehead]

... I think its about the subjectivity of truth.

 

I think you might be right. Everyone knows the butterfly story. He never finished the story, did he? Intentional?

[Marblehead]

So relative subjective truth again.

 

Yes/No ???????????

 

Absolutely YES!, IMO.

[lienshan]

I've never read this text before, so I do as when reading a thriller ...

jump down to the last line to find out ...

who is the murderer:

 

此小大之辨也

 

Like this the disputation of the small greats!

 

辨 was a disputation between two scholars at royal courts.

辨 occurs in the very first line of the Guodian Tao Teh Ching:

 

Abandon knowledge and sever disputation.

 

But I should maybe read the looong text before I begin posting in this thread