Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section A

[Marblehead]

I've never read this text before, so I do as when reading a thriller ...

jump down to the last line to find out ...

who is the murderer:

 

Hehehe. Actually, some do get murdered along the way.

[konchog uma]

I'm not convinced that this is about inner alchemy - I think its about the subjectivity of truth.

 

i think it probably works on multiple levels of meaning at once

[ChiDragon]

Whoah I seem to have precipitated an argument by asking what Peng and Ku meant. Thanks for the detail by the way. Funny that we should start by debating the meaning and interpretation of terms. What does it all mean? Maybe this question is actually what this is about. Is ZZ saying in a way ...

 

Yes, what does it all mean...???

1. Why did ZZ only pick the Kun fish, Peng bird, cicada and the little dove but not something else for his illustration...???

 

2. Why is the Peng bird flew from the northern sea to the southern sea instead of the other way around...???

[manitou]

I'm seeing a lot of relativity in this story. The author zooms in and out from greatness to smallness; indeed, the very small make fun of the great, in that the great (the big bird) must go to so much trouble for his sustenance. The cicada and the dove seem to laugh at this.

 

Perhaps one of the messages of this passage is Be Here Now, Know that where you are is where you are supposed to be. Don't aggressively try to achieve higher status. Let it unfold.

[Apech]

i think it probably works on multiple levels of meaning at once

 

You are right of course ... it could easily be about both meanings at once.

[XieJia]

Wait till we get to the snail.

 

@Chi

Makes me think of your other posts with Lienshan's Inside, Outside. (Peng flying to the South, Kun being in the North).

The Fuxi's stuff is what is in my mind. Don't really know.

What do you think?

 

Cicida is Kun's counterparts and Dove; Peng's small counterparts?

The transformation is indeed great.

[ChiDragon]

You know, ZhangTze loves to tell stories. However, the way he tells his story was by use a third party approach. He doesn't use first person nouns as LaoTze does. He figured that if the story come out from his mouth, then the people will not believe him. In his thinking that People would only believe the words from a third party.

 

Even though ZZ use the greatness and the smallness which might lead us to think that one is complement to each other. However, this is not the case with ZZ. As I said before, ZZ's thinking is not about duality or dyad in his thoughts. When he tell a story, he wants to draw everybody's attention. Therefore, he did some exaggerations by making something big to start off with like the Kun fish and the Pend bird.

 

The example in Chapter One, ZZ imagined that he himself as the Kun fish was isolated in the northern sea which depriving him to seek knowledge beyond his own environment. Then he imagine that he turns into a Peng bird and fly high above and travel far away for a long time to see all he can. He needed to fly high the allow more space for the wind from the big ocean drifts to help him to fly away. The Peng bird flew to the south was because it is the brighter side of the world.

[ChiDragon]

In the case about cicada and the little dove. The cicada was lived such a short time, only in the summer. Indeed it doesn't even know there are four seasons during the year. The little dove only flies up and down the tree. If it fails, then it'll try again to fly up the tree. There was not much expectation for both the cicada and the dove. ZZ used them to express the small creatures are only limited to do small things. However, he was not discriminating about the small things against the big things. He was only using them as an illustration.

 

In his metaphor, he illustrated the difference between a broad minded and a narrow minded by using specific animals with their limitations. The one with a broader knowledge which has greater expectation and with a lesser knowledge has lower expectation. He was also pointing out the irony about the little dove which didn't know better but laughed at the broad minded Peng bird.

Edited October 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

In the case about cicada and the little dove. The cicada was lived such a short time, only in the summer. Indeed it doesn't even know there are four seasons during the year. The little dove only flies up and down the tree. If it fails, then it'll try again to fly up the tree. There was not much expectation for both the cicada and the dove. ZZ used them to express the small creatures are only limited to do small things. However, he was not discriminating about the small things against the big things. He was only using them as an illustration.

 

In his metaphor, he illustrated the difference between a broad minded and a narrow minded by using specific animals with their limitations. The one with a broader knowledge which has greater expectation and with a lesser knowledge has lower expectation. He was also pointing out the irony about the little dove which didn't know better but laughed at the broad minded Peng bird.

 

i think you're right ChiDragon, agree on all counts!

[Cosmo]

In his metaphor, he illustrated the difference between a broad minded and a narrow minded by using specific animals with their limitations. The one with a broader knowledge which has greater expectation and with a lesser knowledge has lower expectation. He was also pointing out the irony about the little dove which didn't know better but laughed at the broad minded Peng bird.

 

Use the word 'experience' instead of 'knowledge'.

[Marblehead]

Use the word 'experience' instead of 'knowledge'.

 

Yes, the word "knowledge" will be just as important here as it is in the TTC. Chuang Tzu did not speak very kindly of the "learned ones".

[ChiDragon]

Use the word 'experience' instead of 'knowledge'.

 

Would you settle for 70% knowledge and 30% experience...??? According to my knowledge, that was how I have gained my experience though knowledge. It was not all experiences. Sometimes, experience alone are very deceiving. However, we must learn from experience to fulfill the other 30% of knowledge.

Edited October 21, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Cosmo]

Would you settle for 70% knowledge and 30% experience...??? According to my knowledge, that was how I have gained my experience though knowledge. It was not all experiences. Sometimes, experience alone are very deceiving. However, we must learn from experience to fulfill the other 30% of knowledge.

 

Knowledge is infinite and we are finite. Pursueing the unlimited with the limited is foolish.

[ChiDragon]

Knowledge is infinite and we are finite. Pursueing the unlimited with the limited is foolish.

 

I am foolish indeed...!!!

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 1. 逍遙遊

Chapter 1. Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

I was wondering was the title of Chapter One properly translated into English. Is the title "Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease" reflects ZZ's philosophy...??? Is "Enjoyment" was what ZZ after or he was after "Untroubled Ease"...??? As a philosopher, I would tend to believe that he was more after the "Untroubled Ease" than "Enjoyment".

 

Let's analyze it. The title in the Chinese characters, 逍遙遊.

逍遙: free and unfettered

遊: a journey

 

Thus 逍遙遊 is the Free and Unfettered Journey. The emphasis lays on Free and Unfettered which more toward ZZ's philosophy. From the meaning of "Unfettered", ZZ was after the freedom from all restrictions in life. It has an indication that he wants to be independent and tried not to be relied on anything to restrict his state of freedom.

 

Chapter One has three parts to reveal his "Unfettered" philosophy:

In part A, he used the Kun, Peng and the cicada and the little dove to distinguish the contrast of smallness and greatness. Most people are heavily dwell in the small thing and stuck with a narrow view. He wants to eliminate the restriction by looking into something big and extraordinary to have a broader vision to see the overall picture of a story.

 

In part B, he pointed out that is very distressful for being an government official. He suggested to be a 真人 (real person) must be 無己(selfless), 無功(no merit), and 無名(no fame) in order to be in the state of "Unfettered".

 

Part C will be discussed in the part C post later.

[Marblehead]

I was wondering was the title of Chapter One properly translated into English.

 

Yep.

 

Lin Yutang titled it: A Happy Excursion

Burton Watson titled it: Free And Easy Wandering

[konchog uma]

Lin Yutang titled it: A Happy Excursion

Burton Watson titled it: Free And Easy Wandering

 

Victor Mair titled it: Carefree Wandering

[dawei]

Good point Apech; the meanings according to dictionaries however we could look at the Symbology.

For the non-Chinese reader.

 

鯤 Kun

鵬 Peng

 

Kun can be divide into yu (魚) and kun (昆)

yu means fish and kun can mean elder brother or together.

I would go with Kun (昆) as insect; it keeps with the idea of the smallness of origin of Kun (鯤) as fish-egg.

 

Thus, Kun-Peng is the transformation from a fish to a bird; a flying-fish

 

Sages are more often shown as flying but here we have the smallest fish-egg transformed to possibly a soaring sage-bird

 

I'm trying to catch up on the threads so won't write too much in past threads.

[Marblehead]

Sages are more often shown as flying but here we have the smallest fish-egg transformed to possibly a soaring sage-bird

 

Nice imagination. Hehehe.

[XieJia]

Now that's evolution

 

Wonder how would the artists draw the transformation as for the 'stages of evolution'.

There's 0 and then poof!! Infinity! (Or Over 9000!); now please fill up the space in between.

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.

Glad to hear from you, David.

Edited October 26, 2011 by XieJia

[Cosmo]

Now that's evolution

 

Wonder how would the artists draw the transformation as for the 'stages of evolution'.

There's 0 and then poof!! Infinity! (Or Over 9000!); now please fill up the space in between.

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.

Glad to hear from you, David.

 

If everything is ten thousands, then over 9000 is pretty close

[ChiDragon]

Nice imagination. Hehehe.

 

Hey, that's not so funny............ :lol:

[lienshan]

In the case about cicada and the little dove. The cicada was lived such a short time, only in the summer. Indeed it doesn't even know there are four seasons during the year. The little dove only flies up and down the tree. If it fails, then it'll try again to fly up the tree.

蜩與學鳩 .... 之二蟲 litteral translated:

 

cicada and teached dove .... these two insects

 

Isn't 學鳩 the name of an insect?

 

學 means 'study, learn, doctrine, teaching, school of thought'.

 

Wouldn't Zhuangzi have used another character e.g. 小 'small' to say 'little dove'?

[ChiDragon]

蜩與學鳩 .... 之二蟲 litteral translated:

 

cicada and teached dove .... these two insects

 

Isn't 學鳩 the name of an insect?

 

學 means 'study, learn, doctrine, teaching, school of thought'.

 

Wouldn't Zhuangzi have used another character e.g. 小 'small' to say 'little dove'?

 

學: learning

鳩: a little dove.

 

學鳩 is a little dove still learning how to fly. That was why it was called "learning dove."

[lienshan]

In the case about cicada and the little dove. The cicada was lived such a short time, only in the summer.

Indeed it doesn't even know there are four seasons during the year.

A cicada has in fact a lifecircle of either 13 years or 17 years and is a longivity symbol in China.

But it only has the form of an insect with big eyes and wings for a couple of months in the summer.

 

Or put in other words: a cicada has a lifecircle similar to Kun the fish changing into Peng the bird.

It lives 13 years or 17 years in the earth as a nymph and then it changes into the adult flying form.

 

The little dove only flies up and down the tree.

If it fails, then it'll try again to fly up the tree.

There are in fact two trees in Zhuangzi's story:

 

榆 an elm

枋 a sandalwood (a parasitic tree that'll say needs a host tree to grow)

 

This paragraph seems misunderstood and mistranslated

I do not buy your 'little learning dove' explanation ...

the term 蜩與學鳩 must in some way relate to the specific relationship of the two trees

 

The cicada and 'the unknown' are in the last line of the paragraph named 二蟲 'two insects'.

The Shuo Wen dictionary: 蟲 : 有足謂之蟲 , 無足謂之豸

insects : have feet is called an insect , not have feet is called a leggless insect

(豸 is too a legendary beast)

Edited October 28, 2011 by lienshan