Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section A

[ChiDragon]

I rest my case.

[lienshan]

學鳩 'Educated Dove' is maybe one of Zhuangzi's funny nicknames?

 

Hanfeizi writes about a person with a similar nickname in more of his stories:

 

徐渠問田鳩曰 : 臣聞 ... 'Slowly Canal' asked 'Cultivated Dove' saying : the minister have heard ...

 

楚王謂田鳩曰 : 墨子 ... the Chu King named 'Cultivated Dove' says : Mozi ...

 

the Chu King is praising Mozi, so 'Cultivated Dove' seems synonymous with a mohist

 

King Huai of Chu 328-299 BC had too the official name: 熊槐 Xiong the Locust Tree

 

LOCUST (Huaimu) Especially hard and strong, huaimu is a very dense and coarsely grained wood that,

once dry, is naturally resistant to moisture and insect damage.

In appearance it is quite similar to Northern Chinese elm,

with its long grain patterns and yellow-brown color.

Though difficult to cut, once accomplished it reveals a wonderfully lustrous surface.

 

'Educated Dove' seems to be connected with the elm and not the sandalwood tree in the story

Edited October 28, 2011 by lienshan

[lienshan]

Nicknaming King Huai of Chu as 'Cultivated Dove' or 'Educated Dove' can be explained this way:

 

A pigeon has a homeage feeling while a dove hasn't.

Pigeons can thus be trained as 'homing pigeons' while doves doesn't return.

 

King Huai of Chu was in 299 BC tricked to participate in a peace conference in Qin.

He was captured when arriving, jailed and died in Qin never returning.

 

The poet Qu Yuan argueed against the king's travel to Qin.

Those pursuading the king to travel were maybe the mohists?

[ChiDragon]

徐渠問田鳩曰 : 臣聞 ... 'Slowly Canal' asked 'Cultivated Dove' saying : the minister have heard ...

 

徐渠 and 田鳩 are proper nouns. There is no need to translate them.

[lienshan]

I think that one totally misses Zhuangzi's pointe if not translating the names:

 

E.g. 'Scolding Quail': the chinese character meaning 'Scolding' consists of two elements, that when treated as two characters looks exactly like the name 'Yin Wen', who was the younger disciple of Song Rongzi mentioned in the following paragraph! These two Jixia Academy scholars are too mentioned together in Zhuangzi's last chapter 33.

 

You are hurrying through Zhuangzi like blind men

[Marblehead]

I think that one totally misses Zhuangzi's pointe if not translating the names:

 

E.g. 'Scolding Quail': the chinese character meaning 'Scolding' consists of two elements, that when treated as two characters looks exactly like the name 'Yin Wen', who was the younger disciple of Song Rongzi mentioned in the following paragraph! These two Jixia Academy scholars are too mentioned together in Zhuangzi's last chapter 33.

 

You are hurrying through Zhuangzi like blind men

 

No, I am not hurrying through Chuang Tzu. He is ever a part of me.

 

What you spoke to was the problem I had, and still have, regarding a deeper understanding of Chuang Tzu. I do know know the significance of all the people and places he speaks of. Therefore, when I first read him I was at a significant loss for a deeper understanding. I had to work at the surface level only.

 

Over time it worked out very well for my because I became able to associate what he said with what Lao Tzu said. But it is always nice to be able to go deeper to the roots of the various thoughts and concepts. Of course, this requires thinking like an Easterner and I am a Westerner so that is an additional challenge for me.

 

 

Edit to add:

 

BTW I do sometimes drag my tail in the mud.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Marblehead

[dawei]

I do know know the significance of all the people and places he speaks of. Therefore, when I first read him I was at a significant loss for a deeper understanding. I had to work at the surface level only.

 

Over time it worked out very well for my because I became able to associate what he said with what Lao Tzu said. But it is always nice to be able to go deeper to the roots of the various thoughts and concepts. Of course, this requires thinking like an Easterner and I am a Westerner so that is an additional challenge for me.

If this is confession time

 

I am reading ZZ through for the very first time here. It is actually tough to not know what he says in later chapters to help explain the earlier ones... but I am glad this is the venue to share some understanding of him.

 

But I already replied to the idea of 'scolding'... wrong word in context; you don't scold someone while laughing. IMO, you can smile and mock or reprove someone. I don't need a later chapter to explain this to me

 

But I think that Lienshan's idea(s) is worth pursuing if not here then in another thread

Edited October 31, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

If this is confession time

 

I am reading ZZ through for the very first time here. It is actually tough to not know what he says in later chapters to help explain the earlier ones... but I am glad this is the venue to share some understanding of him.

 

But I already replied to the idea of 'scolding'... wrong word in context; you don't scold someone while laughing. IMO, you can smile and mock or reprove someone. I don't need a later chapter to explain this to me

 

But I think that Lienshan's idea(s) is worth pursuing if not here then in another thread

 

Nope. That was not confession time, just stating a fact. I agree, that Lienshan's idea about gaining an understanding of the proper names is an excellent idea.

 

I do not feel I have ever "scolded" anyone. Nor have I mocked or reproved anyone for having an opinion or an understanding. I have disagreed with others. Even strongly disagreed. But that was because I felt an error was being made.

 

When I first read Chuang Tzu I did not have access to people who could read Chinese. That is why I had to ignore all the proper names in The Chuang Tzu. Now there is the opportunity for me to learn more. I am trying to take advantage of this opportunity.

 

If I disagree with you or anyone else it is only because I have a different understanding than the other person has. I would expect this to inspire the other person to support their understanding and hopefully show that my understanding is in error. It is my opinion that if we cannot logically support our beliefs we should throw them in the trash can.

 

How do we support our understandings? By observing and studying the Manifest reality and comparing the data with what has been written or said by others.

 

In this study of The Chuang Tzu, we begin with what is written. We then discuss the concepts. If we inject a concept that is not contained in the section of study we are making an error and this should be noted. But while discussing a concept the is in the section of study it should be understood that the discussion will include thoughts by the participants that may take the discussion a little off topic but there is no error here because the thoughts are connect. An example of this is when one discussion strayed into Alchemy. And yes, Chuang Tzu did hint at alchemic practices.

 

I am who I am and I won't apologize for that. If anyone feels I am being disrespectful I will suggest that this is their problem, not mine.

[ChiDragon]

When I first read Chuang Tzu I did not have access to people who could read Chinese. That is why I had to ignore all the proper names in The Chuang Tzu. Now there is the opportunity for me to learn more. I am trying to take advantage of this opportunity.

 

If I understand you correctly, learning the proper names is only a point of interest. IMO, I don't see that has anything to do with the concepts as someone had suggested. Thus I would not make a big issue out of it.

[Marblehead]

If I understand you correctly, learning the proper names is only a point of interest. IMO, I don't see that has anything to do with the concepts as someone had suggested. Thus I would not make a big issue out of it.

 

No, I'm not making a big issue of it. But knowing the significance of the names adds to my understanding of the culture in China during and before Chuang Tzu's time.

 

But yes, it is basically just a point of interest for me because the concepts Chuang Tzu put forth are very well presented so that, IMO, one need not understand those aspects of his work.

[dawei]

I do not feel I have ever "scolded" anyone. Nor have I mocked or reproved anyone for having an opinion or an understanding. I have disagreed with others. Even strongly disagreed. But that was because I felt an error was being made.

Just to clarify: The 'scolding' issue is concerning Lienshan's "scolding dove"... I think the word is better translated as "reprove". Unless you are associating the dove with yourself as part of your new understanding of ZZ ?

[Marblehead]

Just to clarify: The 'scolding' issue is concerning Lienshan's "scolding dove"... I think the word is better translated as "reprove". Unless you are associating the dove with yourself as part of your new understanding of ZZ ?

 

Okay. Yes, there was a misunderstanding.

 

I have spoken enough about myself. I shall keep that to an absolute minimum from this point on.

 

But the dove? I shall disregard the 'scolding dove (quail)'. Doesn't seem to fit in anyhow.

[Aaron]

Edited- I decided not to participate in this study. The Chuang Tzu isn't my cup of tea, nor is dictating what descriptions are appropriate to describe the chapters.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Twinner

[lienshan]

This seems to be a very simple chapter to understand,

I'm not sure if the metaphors are really so important as the general message

The internet has made detailed research simple. Why not use it to improve the reading? An example:

 

A man of Song, who dealt in the ceremonial caps (of Yin), went with them to Yue,

the people of which cut off their hair and tattooed their bodies, so that they had no use for them.

 

The man of Song is according to my research of Ru Xing paragraph 1 Confucius

 

Confucius replied, 'When I was little, I lived in Lu, and wore the garment with large sleeves;

when I was grown up, I lived in Song, and was then capped with the kang-fu cap.

 

Zhuangzi underlines the metaphor by using an unusual 'to go to' verb in the paragraph:

適 is in the Shuo Wen dictionary defined as Lu and Song dialect

 

 

But why does Confucius suddenly pop up offering a ceremonial hat to the man of Yue?

How can I read 'the general message' when unable to read what's actual written

[Marblehead]

Ever tried selling rain buckets to people who live in the desert?

[XieJia]

Ever tried selling rain buckets to people who live in the desert?

 

Still, the people might be able to find its uses.

Carrying stuffs for example

[ChiDragon]

Still, the people might be able to find its uses.

Carrying stuffs for example

 

Yes, another good use for it is to put it, upside down, over one's head.....

[Marblehead]

Yes, another good use for it is to put it, upside down, over one's head.....

 

Or you could try to sell them an umbrella.

[lienshan]

There was no desert but a rainforrest in Yue

 

 

 

 

Yue conquered Wu in 473 BC and became neighbor to Song and Lu.

Mozi wrote two texts with content relating directly to this Zhuangzi chapter:

 

Mozi book 12 (Gong Meng no. 3)

Gong Mengzi, wearing a ceremonial hat, carrying the officials' tablet, and in the cloak of the learned, came to see Mozi and asked: "Does the gentleman dress in appropriate attire before acting. Or does he do his business first and then consider his attire?" Mozi said: Action does not depend on attire. Gong Mengzi asked how is it possible to know. Mozi said: Formerly, Lord Huan of Qi (685-643 B.C.), wearing a high hat and a wide girdle, with a gold sword and wooden shield, governed his state. And his state became orderly. Lord Wen of Jin (780-746 B.C.), wearing garments of coarse cloth and sheepskin cloak, with the sword in a leather belt, governed his state. And his state became orderly. Lord Zhuang of Chu (671-626 B.C.), wearing a gaudy hat with a tassel, and a red garment and a big gown, governed his state. And his state became orderly. Lord Gou Jian of Yue (496-465 B.C.), had his hair cut short and his body tattooed and governed his state, and his state became orderly. Now, these four lords differed in attire but agreed in action. I therefore know action does not depend on attire.

 

Mozi book 13 (Lu's questions no. 13)

After Mozi had paid Gong Shang Guo a visit, Gong Shang Guo recommended him to the Lord of Yue. The Lord of Yue was greatly pleased, saying to Gong Shang Guo: "Sir, if you can induce Mozi to come to Yue and instruct me I shall offer him five hundred li square of the land lying in the former state of Wu." Gong Shang Guo promised to try and so fifty wagons were made ready to go to Lu, and welcome Mozi. (Gong Shang Guo) told him: "When I tried to persuade the Lord of Yue with your principles he was quite pleased and said to me that if I could induce you to come to Yue and instruct him, he would offer you five hundred li square of the land lying in the former state of Wu." Mozi said to Gong Shang Guo: As you observe it, what is the intention of the Lord of Yue? If the Lord of Yue will listen to my word and adopt my way, I shall come, asking only for food according to the capacity of my stomach, and clothing according to the stature of my body. I shall just be one of the ministers. What is the use of any commission? On the other hand, if the Lord of Yue will not listen to my word and adopt my way and I should go nevertheless, I should then be selling my righteousness. As for selling righteousness I could very well do it in China, why should I then go out to Yue?

 

The 'I shall come, asking only for ...' is similar to this Zhuangzi text:

 

The tailor-bird makes its nest in the deep forest, but only uses a single branch;

the mole drinks from the He, but only takes what fills its belly.

Edited November 1, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

Yes, another good use for it is to put it, upside down, over one's head.....

Or you could try to sell them an umbrella.

 

What I meant was one cannot be anymore blinded than one already is....

[lienshan]

What I meant was one cannot be anymore blinded than one already is....

In my native language it's called: 'blind like a mole'

 

 

 

 

That reason why Zhuangzi nicknamed the mohists as 'moles' is probably this invention:

 

A common offensive strategy in warring states China was to tunnel under a defensive wall

to either collapse the wall or sneak troops inside the city. One mohist invention was

to dig a tunnel on the inside of a city wall and put a large drum at the bottom, which

would resonate with and amplify the sound of enemy miners so they could be detected.

 

(Bryan W. Van Norden)

[Marblehead]

What I meant was one cannot be anymore blinded than one already is....

 

And what I meant to do was mess with you.

[Marblehead]

There was no desert but a rainforrest in Yue

 

Then they could use the umbrellas then, couldn't they?

[lienshan]

I think that XieJia is very close to my answer:

 

Still, the people might be able to find its uses.

Zhuangzi demonstrates in the last two paragraphs, that only the 'use fa' is useless!

Everything else can be argueed as being useful!

 

I've almost finished my reading of chapter 1

 

Only the tiny 'Yao travels to mount Ku-she' paragraph still cause me trouble

[dawei]

Only the tiny 'Yao travels to mount Ku-she' paragraph still cause me trouble

Can you comment in the applicable thread/section and quote the passage? I don't know where this is.

Edited November 2, 2011 by dawei