Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section B

[Marblehead]

Section B

 

Thus it is that men, whose wisdom is sufficient for the duties of some one office, or whose conduct will secure harmony in some one district, or whose virtue is befitting a ruler so that they could efficiently govern some one state, are sure to look on themselves in this manner (like the quail), and yet Rongzi of Song would have smiled and laughed at them. (This Rongzi), though the whole world should have praised him, would not for that have stimulated himself to greater endeavour, and though the whole world should have condemned him, would not have exercised any more repression of his course; so fixed was he in the difference between the internal (judgment of himself) and the external (judgment of others), so distinctly had he marked out the bounding limit of glory and disgrace. Here, however, he stopped. His place in the world indeed had become indifferent to him, but still he had not planted himself firmly (in the right position). There was Liezi, who rode on the wind and pursued his way, with an admirable indifference (to all external things), returning, however, after fifteen days, (to his place). In regard to the things that (are supposed to) contribute to happiness, he was free from all endeavours to obtain them; but though he had not to walk, there was still something for which he had to wait. But suppose one who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable - what has he to wait for? Therefore it is said, 'The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame.'

 

Yao, proposing to resign the throne to Xu You, said, 'When the sun and moon have come forth, if the torches have not been put out, would it not be difficult for them to give light? When the seasonal rains are coming down, if we still keep watering the ground, will not our toil be labour lost for all the good it will do? Do you, Master, stand forth (as sovereign), and the kingdom will (at once) be well governed. If I still (continue to) preside over it, I must look on myself as vainly occupying the place - I beg to resign the throne to you.' Xu You said, 'You, Sir, govern the kingdom, and the kingdom is well governed. If I in these circumstances take your place, shall I not be doing so for the sake of the name? But the name is but the guest of the reality; shall I be playing the part of the guest? The tailor-bird makes its nest in the deep forest, but only uses a single branch; the mole drinks from the He, but only takes what fills its belly. Return and rest in being ruler - I will have nothing to do with the throne. Though the cook were not attending to his kitchen, the representative of the dead and the officer of prayer would not leave their cups and stands to take his place.'

[Cosmo]

I am an instrument in the hands of God.

[Marblehead]

I am an instrument in the hands of God.

 

No. You are a creation that has been afforded free will and the power of making choices and taking responsibility for your actions.

 

So you have no right to blame or praise whatever supreme power you believe in.

 

You are the utility (instrument) of your own making.

 

So what does the above section say to you?

[XieJia]

What of a guy that is good and think himself a good guy.

Master Rong; is no such guy.

What use of good and bad.

What use of internal and external.

What use of rooting or grounding.

By following the way, Liezi rode the clouds.

Seeing the coming and going with ease.

Why do he still have to wait, such he is following his way.

If one takes joy in being Yin and Yang, and the transformation.

What use of the self?

Hehehe Cosmo, What is the cat doing?

(For the esoteric, there's a reference here about Bagua

Yin, Yang and the Six others. The possible reference is into

the relationship of the Fu Xi and King Wen's sequence.

One internal and one external.)

Edited October 19, 2011 by XieJia

[XieJia]

What is the different between Master Rong and Master Lie?

What is Emperor Yao trying to do? Why does he want to do that.

Why does Xun You refuse Emperor Yao?

How are they compared to the way of Master Rong and Lie?

 

(The He 河 is River, Stream or as reference to Yellow River.)

 

@Hey Marble

How do you plan to pace each section out?

 

 

 

 

 

[konchog uma]

Chapter 2 from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way"

 

Yao wished to abdicate his rulership of all under heaven to Hsŭ

Yu, saying, "If one did not extinguish a candle when the sun and

moon come out, wouldn't it be hard to discern its light? If one

continues to irrigate the fields when the seasonal rains fall,

wouldn't it have little effect upon the amount of moisture in

them? Once you are established on the throne, master, all under

heaven will be well ordered . Yet I am still the ruler and consider

myself inadequate to the task . Allow me to hand over the empire

to you."

"You are governing all under heaven" said Hsu Yu, "and the

empire is already well ordered. If I were to replace you, would I be

doing it for the name? A name is but an attribute of reality.

Would I be doing it for the sake of attribution? The wren nests

in the deep forest, occupying but a single branch . The mole

drinks from the river, merely filling its little belly. Return, oh

lord, and forget this business. I have no need for all under heaven!

Even supposing that the cook were not attending to his kitchen,

the impersonator of the dead would not leap over the pots and

pans to take his place."

[Marblehead]

@Hey Marble

How do you plan to pace each section out?

 

 

Very carefully.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously. The Sections will be daily until the entire Chapter is posted. Then there will be a short break (two or three days maybe) between Chapters to allow people who don't get online every day to catch up, make comments, whatever, and then do the next Chapter.

[Marblehead]

Chapter 2 from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way"

 

 

That's part of Section B of Chapter 1. Please don't confuse me. That is really easy to do you know. Hehehe.

 

But thanks for the alternate translation.

[Marblehead]

What is the different between Master Rong and Master Lie?

What is Emperor Yao trying to do? Why does he want to do that.

Why does Xun You refuse Emperor Yao?

How are they compared to the way of Master Rong and Lie?

 

So many questions! So few answers!

[XieJia]

So many questions! So few answers!

 

Those are actually my comments and answers

 

Nothing makes me want to share what Papa Zhuangzi told me yet,

so I just share the questions I asked him.

 

All the Best;

 

P.S.

(I think we are going quite fast, I drives fast but this is faster.)

But I think you are doing great especially at this speed.

Edited October 19, 2011 by XieJia

[XieJia]

impersonator of the dead

 

Thank you for sharing anamatva, Victor's translation is quite nice.

 

Reminds me of Master Kong (Confucius).

 

Might be useful to keep in mind for later.

 

Edited October 19, 2011 by XieJia

[Jeff]

What is the different between Master Rong and Master Lie?

What is Emperor Yao trying to do? Why does he want to do that.

Why does Xun You refuse Emperor Yao?

How are they compared to the way of Master Rong and Lie?

 

(The He 河 is River, Stream or as reference to Yellow River.)

 

Very good questions...

 

Also on the same point, which is better (or what is the difference)... to be a... perfect, spirit-like, or sagely-minded man?

 

[Marblehead]

Come on guys. Where's all the answers? Hehehe.

[XieJia]

Very good questions...

 

Also on the same point, which is better (or what is the difference)... to be a... perfect, spirit-like, or sagely-minded man?

 

 

 

The Dao,

Cultivation, puts the man on their path.

Yao as Yao, Xun You as Xun You, Liezi as Liezi, Rongzi as Rongzi.

 

For Xun You to be Yao or Liezi to be Rongzi.

What an absurdity!?

If one understands this, none of these will be different.

 

 

 

 

@Marble

Why answers when one can questions?!

Edited October 19, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

 

@Marble

Why answers when one can questions?!

 

Valid point. Yes, questions are good for those with a basic understanding. But for those without a basic understanding the questions may cause more confusion than not seeing to consider the question.

 

Seeing the moon at night time is pretty easy but it is not so easy to see Venus unless someone points to it.

 

Just thinking. Please forgive.

[konchog uma]

That's part of Section B of Chapter 1. Please don't confuse me. That is really easy to do you know. Hehehe.

 

But thanks for the alternate translation.

 

Victor Mair divided the chapters differently. His "chapter 1" includes the first part of "section B" and his "chapter 2" is the 2nd part.

 

I will be careful to make sure that good people like yourself are not confused by my posts. I should have double checked the content as well as the punctuation and made a note of it!

Edited October 19, 2011 by anamatva

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What is the different between Master Rong and Master Lie?

What is Emperor Yao trying to do? Why does he want to do that.

Why does Xun You refuse Emperor Yao?

How are they compared to the way of Master Rong and Lie?

 

(The He 河 is River, Stream or as reference to Yellow River.)

 

@Hey Marble

How do you plan to pace each section out?

 

 

I'll start with the seemingly obvious:

 

Emperor Yao is trying to give Xun You the throne because the job is basically taking care of itself and he feels that, if he influences the job that is being done, then he will ruin it.

 

Xun You refuses the position because [in this example of Anarcho-Taoism (and no I'm not just biased, it's pretty apparent that they feel active authority will ruin the harmony and balance)] he knows that there is no real job to be done so there is no use in pretending to govern.

 

This of course has wider implications about self.

 

I'll let someone else help with "How are they compared to the way of Master Rong and Lie?", and "What is the different between Master Rong and Master Lie?"

 

 

I'm liking this method of picking out the questions, XieJia.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There was Liezi, who rode on the wind and pursued his way, with an admirable indifference (to all external things), returning, however, after fifteen days, (to his place). In regard to the things that (are supposed to) contribute to happiness, he was free from all endeavours to obtain them; but though he had not to walk, there was still something for which he had to wait. But suppose one who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable - what has he to wait for?

 

?

 

 

 

 

Ahhhhhhhhalchmy!!

 

'scuse me..

 

 

*sniff*

 

 

Edited October 20, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[XieJia]

?

 

 

 

 

Ahhhhhhhhalchmy!!

 

'scuse me..

 

 

*sniff*

 

 

 

@Harmonious

Good point explained. Play with the chapter, take it with you during the day, maybe you might meet Liezi or Rongzi on your way.

 

As for the text you highlighted.

 

It's not directly related but...

 

Bagua

 

It's a framework that the Chinese used.

The Yin and Yang and the Six other Trigrams.

(Referring if needed, but while reading ZhuangZi; Please disregard the framework as well.).

 

 

@Marble

I think it's kinda fun to go through the process of discovering Zhuangzi first time round. I'll help by picking out and asking what I think is relevant.

Hope you understand Boss.

 

Any mistake is my own.

Edited October 20, 2011 by XieJia

[Cosmo]

No. You are a creation that has been afforded free will and the power of making choices and taking responsibility for your actions.

 

So you have no right to blame or praise whatever supreme power you believe in.

 

You are the utility (instrument) of your own making.

 

So what does the above section say to you?

 

It says that I am an instrument in the hands of God.

 

That our goal is to do everything within the present moment, which has been predecided, and without an attatchment to either our motivations for doing the action, or the outcome of the action. Why paddle against the river? One should strive to become an instrument of action. In our ignorance we feel that "I am doing".

 

But suppose one who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable - what has he to wait for? Therefore it is said, 'The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame.'

 

See it now?

Edited October 20, 2011 by Cosmo

[Marblehead]

Victor Mair divided the chapters differently. His "chapter 1" includes the first part of "section B" and his "chapter 2" is the 2nd part.

 

I will be careful to make sure that good people like yourself are not confused by my posts. I should have double checked the content as well as the punctuation and made a note of it!

 

Thank you my friend!

[Marblehead]

Xun You refuses the position because [in this example of Anarcho-Taoism (and no I'm not just biased, it's pretty apparent that they feel active authority will ruin the harmony and balance)] he knows that there is no real job to be done so there is no use in pretending to govern.

 

Excellent observation! There will be many more examples of this throughout.

[Marblehead]

?

 

Ahhhhhhhhalchmy!!

 

'scuse me..

 

*sniff*

 

 

 

Yep. And we will see more of this as well and it was used by the Alchemic Taoists to develop their art later on.

[Marblehead]

 

@Marble

I think it's kinda fun to go through the process of discovering Zhuangzi first time round. I'll help by picking out and asking what I think is relevant.

Hope you understand Boss.

 

Any mistake is my own.

 

Hey! I appreciate what you are doing here.

 

Your approach was new to my brain and it took a few minutes for me to realize the value in it.

 

Be yourself. All of you. All I am trying to do is guide this along so it doesn't become something none of us would like to see.

[Marblehead]

It says that I am an instrument in the hands of God.

 

That our goal is to do everything within the present moment, which has been predecided, and without an attatchment to either our motivations for doing the action, or the outcome of the action. Why paddle against the river? One should strive to become an instrument of action. In our ignorance we feel that "I am doing".

 

See it now?

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

 

My main objection was with the use of the word "God". It really has no place in a discussion of Chuang Tzu.

 

Yes, I do understand what you are saying. However, wouldn't it be better to be the one using the instrument in order to help others? Sure, we can be satisfied with being just the instrument but I think it would be much more productive to be the user of the instrument.

 

The universe has already provided all the instruments. What is needed is users who will use the instruments for the betterment of all universe (not just man).