Harmonious Emptiness Posted October 22, 2011 The six chi are: 陰、陽、風、雨、晦、明: Yin, Yang, Wind, Rain, Darkness and Brightness. Just by looking at the nomenclatures, it was pretty much self explanatory that they are the phenomenons of Nature. Thus they cannot by controlled by human. controlled "like a chariot", no. invited, yes, according to many Taoist priests and shamans, so I wouldn't assume that Chuang Tzu had no familiarity with weather influencing practices at a general level or better, regardless of our faiths... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) hmmmmmmm...... I believe ZZ is a philosopher. He was not a Taoist priest nor a shaman. Edited October 22, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 22, 2011 Yes, you do.... Agreed. And you are right on track based on my understanding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 22, 2011 hmmmmmmm...... I believe ZZ is a philosopher. He was not a Taoist priest nor a shaman. Absolutely! And this should be kept in mind as we discuss his philosophy. (He does make us wonder about it sometimes though. Hehehe.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cosmo Posted October 22, 2011 controlled "like a chariot", no. invited, yes, according to many Taoist priests and shamans, so I wouldn't assume that Chuang Tzu had no familiarity with weather influencing practices at a general level or better, regardless of our faiths... Feng shui Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted October 22, 2011 Seriously, even though someone is only a Taoist philosopher, does that mean they've never heard of Taoisms healing and other rituals? Chuang Tzu would have had at least a passing knowledge about this, as would villagers who were healed by Taoist medicine. Chuang Tzu was likely in contact with healers and martial arts masters as well. More than likely, he was even a pupil of one or more masters for some part of his early life. Personally, I would be surprised to find out that he learned everything he did just by reading Lao Tzu, listening to his elders, and sitting in silent meditation, but I'm interested to hear other's thoughts. If he learned on his own, that would certainly vouch for self study as a means to attaining oneness with Tao; though we may also underestimate the virtue of being raised in traditional cultures and the wisdom they might influence on a poet as masterful as Chuang Tzu.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted October 22, 2011 Feng shui thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 22, 2011 Seriously, ... Personally, ... I will suggest that your assumptions are likely very correct. His understandings were very vast. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted October 23, 2011 Chapter 42 - Genesis 5. 萬物負陰而抱陽， 5. All things with yin on the back and yang in the front. __ __ Yin _____ Yang Yin and Yang is Tao. The six chi are: 陰、陽、風、雨、晦、明: Yin, Yang, Wind, Rain, Darkness and Brightness. Just by looking at the nomenclatures, it was pretty much self explanatory that they are the phenomenons of Nature. Thus they cannot by controlled by human. Your 'self explanatory' seems not to fit with your Tao Teh Ching chapter 42 translation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cosmo Posted October 23, 2011 If youre trying to control youre only going to lose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 23, 2011 If youre trying to control youre only going to lose. I think you are right in the most part. There are exceptions, of course. I do try to control myself to a degree though, as well as my immediate surroundings that I call "my property". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 23, 2011 What is Emperor Yao trying to do? Yao wants to hand his well established throne to a highly qualified respectable person as his successor. It was because his son was not good enough to rule his kingdom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 23, 2011 Your 'self explanatory' seems not to fit with your Tao Teh Ching chapter 42 translation lienshan, my friend You are too inflexible with the hidden meanings of the terms. Maybe it was learning from your misguided source... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted October 23, 2011 You are too inflexible with the hidden meanings of the terms. If I ask any 4 years old children in the world about the six Qi, they will tell me about rain, wind, night, day, but not about Yin and Yang. The four first are experienced by all, while the two latter must be learned. The socalled 'six Qi' are thus not 'self explanatory' as 'phenomenons of Nature'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) If I ask any 4 years old children in the world about the six Qi, they will tell me about rain, wind, night, day, but not about Yin and Yang. The four first are experienced by all, while the two latter must be learned. The socalled 'six Qi' are thus not 'self explanatory' as 'phenomenons of Nature'. I hope you are not four years old. The Yin here is the shadow on the North side of the hills; and the Yang here is to sun light on the South side. Aren't Yin and Yang the phenomena of Nature and the manifestation of Tao....??? Edited October 23, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 24, 2011 Why does Xun You refuse Emperor Yao? Original classic text: 原文莊子內篇一逍遙遊 堯讓天下於許由，曰：「日月出矣而爝火不息，其於光也，不亦難乎！時雨降矣而猶浸灌，其於澤也，不亦勞乎！夫子立而天下治，而我猶尸之，吾自視缺然。請致天下。」許由曰：「子治天下，天下既已治也。而我猶代子，吾將為名乎？名者，實之賓也，吾將為賓乎？鷦鷯巢於深林，不過一枝；偃鼠飲河，不過滿腹。歸休乎君，予無所用天下為！庖人雖不治庖，尸祝不越樽俎而代之矣。」 Brief translation in Chinese: 大意翻譯堯帝想把天下讓給許由，說：「日月出來了，而火把卻不熄滅，想要放光照亮，不是很困難嗎？（不就多此一舉嗎？）及時雨下了，還在灌溉做什麼呢？灌溉對於水澤而言，不是徒勞罷了！您既然出現於世上，天下即將大治，我還站在這祭祀（站君位）的位置上，我覺得我缺乏能力不足以治世，今天想把天下讓給你。」許由說：「你治理天下，天下已經治平了，要我來代替你，我是為了名嗎？名是事實外在的名義，我是為了這事實嗎？鷦鷯處在深林之中，只要有一支樹枝可棲息就夠了，偃鼠渴飲於河，喝飽了就算了。你回去吧！天下雖大，我是沒有用的。當負責煮飯的人煮不出好的祭品，當尸祝的也不能越過樽俎代替他做啊。」 Brief translation in English: King Yao(堯帝) wants to give the throne to Xu You(許由) and said: "The sun and the moon came forth, but the torch has not been extinguished. For it to give light for brightness, is not it would be very difficult...??? The seasonal rain has precipitated, why bother to irrigate the land? In regard to the irrigation, isn't it just doing some extra labor? However, you have come into this world; and the world is almost in the completion of my ruling. If I am continue to hold my position, I reckon that I will be lacking the ability and inefficient to rule the world. Today, I would to like give the world to you." Xu You said: "You ruled the world; and the world is already in order. For me to replace you, am I doing it for the fame? Fame is only a title outside of reality. Am I looking forward to this reality? A tailor-bird lives in the forest; it only needs a small branch to live is suffice. A mole only drinks from a river when thirsty and stop after his thirst was satisfied. Please go back! Even though the world is great, but it is useless to me. Though the one who was responsible to cook a meal but cannot cook some sacrificial offering dishes, even the worshiper cannot exceed his ability to do the cooking for him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) King Yao is a bit guilty here, isn't it? What use is giving 'King' to Xu You? Xu You just shove it back at King Yao's face politely. What use in giving away 'All beneath Heaven'? @Chi Thank you for the nice translation. Edited October 24, 2011 by XieJia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted October 25, 2011 What use in receiving 'All beneath Heaven'? He who knows he has enough is already rich. *** Hey - I'm cleanin out closets. Anybody need more stuff?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 25, 2011 1. King Yao is a bit guilty here, isn't it? 2. What use is giving 'King' to Xu You? Xu You just shove it back at King Yao's face politely. What use in giving away 'All beneath Heaven'? @Chi Thank you for the nice translation. 1. Why do you think King Yao is guilty(of what)...??? 2. King Yao thought Xu You has the quality of a sage. King Yao trusted that Xu You will be a good ruler; but Xu You had never thought of being a ruler. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) The sun and the moon came forth, but the torch has not been extinguished. For it to give light for brightness, is not it would be very difficult...??? The seasonal rain has precipitated, why bother to irrigate the land? In regard to the irrigation, isn't it just doing some extra labor? When all is good, all things under heaven are with the Dao. Yao see no reason for being a king. He thinks that is no more for him to do other than giving it away to a proper successor. Being titled 'King' is still a burden for him. He look for all under heaven for a successor, he found Xu You and then Shun. He wanted to give the 'World' to Xu You; Seeing that there's no more thing to do. Pointed out that Yao's burden is empty and to go back, and there's no need to give the World away. There's no need to receive the World. Edited October 25, 2011 by XieJia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 25, 2011 What use in receiving 'All beneath Heaven'? He who knows he has enough is already rich. Yea!!! Hey - I'm cleanin out closets. Anybody need more stuff?? I still have way too much clutter in my own closets but thanks anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 25, 2011 There's no need to receive the World. There's also no need to rule something that does not need to be ruled. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 25, 2011 There's also no need to rule something that does not need to be ruled. It's not practical. Let's be more idealistic. There has to be some kind of law and order. The old king Yao picked Xu You to take over his throne was to assure that Xu You will take good care of his throne. Customary, a Chinese king always hand down the throne to his first born son. However, King Yao was wise enough to give it to someone which is more sagacious. Yao knew his son will not do a good job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 25, 2011 It's not practical. Let's be more idealistic. Ha! You didn't know I had a little anarchist streak in me, did you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 25, 2011 Ha! You didn't know I had a little anarchist streak in me, did you? Yes, I did and you broke my heart........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
