Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section B

[Marblehead]

Yes, I did and you broke my heart........

 

Well, I apologize for breaking your heart but for nothing else at the moment.

[Cosmo]

It's not practical. Let's be more idealistic. There has to be some kind of law and order. The old king Yao picked Xu You to take over his throne was to assure that Xu You will take good care of his throne. Customary, a Chinese king always hand down the throne to his first born son. However, King Yao was wise enough to give it to someone which is more sagacious. Yao knew his son will not do a good job.

 

Lao Tzu pretty much gave up on humans working together and gtfo of China. Make no mistake, these are the descendents of Mozi, the exact opposite to the will to perform rites.

[dawei]

If I ask any 4 years old children in the world about the six Qi,

they will tell me about rain, wind, night, day, but not about Yin and Yang.

The four first are experienced by all, while the two latter must be learned.

 

The socalled 'six Qi' are thus not 'self explanatory' as 'phenomenons of Nature'.

Yes, this is true because the six listed here are not correct.

 

The answer is Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen, in what is known as the Five Periods and Six Qi (Wu Yun Liu Qi).

 

Five Periods:

1. Soil

2. Metal

3. Water

4. Wood

5. Fire

 

Six Qi:

1. Wind

2. Cold

3. Summer Heat

4. Dryness

5. Dampness

6. Fire

 

These correspond to the Stems and Branches theory but the main idea is that we are talking about an ANNUAL process of climate change, thus these periods are about 60 days each.

[lienshan]

The answer is Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen, in what is known as the Five Periods and Six Qi (Wu Yun Liu Qi).

That'll say Liezi was the inventor of the Five Periods and Six Qi theory according to Zhuangzi.

A quote from Liezi's Cosmogony chapter 1:

 

The law of constant production and of constant evolution at no time ceases to operate.

So is it with the Yin and the Yang, so is it with the Four Seasons.

 

A quote from the Ta Yi Sheng Shui (the Great One gives birth to water):

 

What's a year is the birth of moisture and fluid.

What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil.

What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang.

 

The return of Liezi seems important both here and at the beginning of Zhuangzi's chapter 32.

Here is mentioned 'a ten-days period and five days'

There is mentioned 'ten different inns and in five of them'

The return is too important in Ta Yi Sheng Shui; e.g. in the opening line:

 

The Great One gives birth to water

and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven

and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth.

 

I am aware, that the above look confusing at first sight,

but that's the most simple way for me at the moment to explain,

why I read immeasurable Kun changing to Peng as symbolizing 'the Great One'

[lienshan]

Six Qi:

1. Wind

2. Cold

3. Summer Heat

4. Dryness

5. Dampness

6. Fire

I suspect, that your six Qi is a later developed definition like:

 

ceasing yin - wind

yang brilliance - dryness

major yin - dampness

major yang - cold

minor yin - heat

minor yang - fire

 

Zhuangzi's morning mushroom paragraph speaks about night/day and the seasons.

This corresponds more to the six terms of Ta Yi Sheng Shui:

 

神明 - spirit and light

寒然 - cold and heat

濕澡 - moisture and dryness

 

Where I read the last two pairs as representing the four seasons.

 

But there was probably more schemes circulating which Zhuangzi demonstrates by contradicting stories highlighting the theory of the six Qi and the five periods. E.g. is the Pool of Heaven in south in the first paragraph, while the Pool of Heaven is in North in the Questions of Tang to Li paragraph.

 

By the way - this pdf file translation is great; 1. chapter begins at page 7.

[dawei]

I'll look at your idea further.

[dawei]

That'll say Liezi was the inventor of the Five Periods and Six Qi theory according to Zhuangzi.

A quote from Liezi's Cosmogony chapter 1:

 

The law of constant production and of constant evolution at no time ceases to operate.

So is it with the Yin and the Yang, so is it with the Four Seasons.

Not sure this is enough proof that Leizi was the inventor of the 5 Phase theory. He does a basic association that most early sages do to Yin and Yang and Nature.

 

 

A quote from the Ta Yi Sheng Shui (the Great One gives birth to water):

 

What's a year is the birth of moisture and fluid.

What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil.

What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang.

 

The return of Liezi seems important both here and at the beginning of Zhuangzi's chapter 32.

Here is mentioned 'a ten-days period and five days'

There is mentioned 'ten different inns and in five of them'

The return is too important in Ta Yi Sheng Shui; e.g. in the opening line:

 

The Great One gives birth to water

and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven

and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth.

 

I am aware, that the above look confusing at first sight,

but that's the most simple way for me at the moment to explain,

why I read immeasurable Kun changing to Peng as symbolizing 'the Great One'

The "Return" is not the issue in TYSS; it is the transformation process (again, think 5 Phase theory is really 5 transformations). Kun changing to Peng is a transformation, thus it is not the Great One but the process of the Great One... thus said... DAO IS NOT the Great one.. Dao is the process... The Great One stands above it all.

[dawei]

I suspect, that your six Qi is a later developed definition like:

 

ceasing yin - wind

yang brilliance - dryness

major yin - dampness

major yang - cold

minor yin - heat

minor yang - fire

Exactly !

 

Zhuangzi's morning mushroom paragraph speaks about night/day and the seasons.

This corresponds more to the six terms of Ta Yi Sheng Shui:

 

神明 - spirit and light

寒然 - cold and heat

濕澡 - moisture and dryness

By this association, Wind and Fire is Spirit and Light ?

 

I take the TYSS Shen Ming (神明) as more of a compound or joined meaning. Wind and Fire are not.

 

The main reason is that the six Qi are the 'invading' Qi to the body; what causes sickness, illness, and death to the body. TYSS is not trying to write a medical manifesto like the document I reference.

 

But I generally like your thoughts here and if we had more time we could run with the wind and fire on this (or the spirit and light on that).

Edited October 29, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

if we had more time we could run with the wind and fire on this (or the spirit and light on that).

'time' was actually what made me think of Ta Yi Sheng Shui. You wrote 'but the main idea is that we are talking about an ANNUAL process of climate change' which fits with the point of return in the middle of Ta Yi Sheng Shui text.

 

What interests me at the moment is the structure of the whole Zhuangzi chapter 1, because that might highlight,

whether Liezi and the Great One is the main subject of the chapter or not?

I try view the chapter as a mohist three fa Justification of the Great One:

 

The two last paragraphs with Zhuangzi and Huizi relate to the earlier paragraph about the cup of water and the boat.

The subject is whether something is beneficial or not? That'll say a mohist 'use fa'.

 

The two paragraphs about the Riddles of Qi and the Questions of Tang to Ji seem too linked together,

if the subject is the mohist 'root fa'?

 

But the 'source fa' is hard to identify, if the speaking ones are animals

 

E.g. 'Scolding Quail' who is translated as 'a quail'??? A quail fly 5 feet vertical up in the air, when upset, and bangs the head against a roof lower than 5 feet, which the chinese charater for scolding shows, but it can't like cicadas and doves not speak. So the animals are nicknames of real persons with talents like those of the animals. Animals do ofcourse speak in fairytales, but isn't this a philosophical text?

[dawei]

There is a passage in Chapter 1 about Jian Wu-Lian Shu and the mounting the Qi of the clouds and "that by the concentration of his spirit-like powers he could save men from disease and pestilence". This is not philosophy.... but nobody wants to talk about it since it is outside of the realm of empirical understanding (ie: source Fa). But this is "Root Fa" for medical connection of the Six Qi. IMO, if you establish Root and Source you then have the last one, Use. But what ZZ wants to do is not establish the judgement of these but the interconnection of these (that is the underlying theme, IMO). This may be why Sima Qian said the Daoist [school] took the best of each idea [among the Ru, Mozi, etc].

 

Long time ago I theorized the idea of Root Fa as fundamental to chinese thinking; now I see Mozi has coined it. TO me, this is usually a part of their arguments since Dao is the Root Process. The Source is whether we observe the root today. ZZ talks of the Wildcat as the Source Fa. (The speaking animals are Root Fa, IMO, Historical is root)

 

Now to the idea of the Great One. I already stated my opinion that Dao is not the Great One but you have not really defined what it is for you. I tend to see chapter 1 as closer to defining the Great Way... the process of life. There is repeated examples of how life is lived; why things go the way they go.

 

To your Scolding Quail, from here? 斥鴳笑之曰

 

This means: "A Quail reprovingly laughed, saying:"

 

Why do the animals talk in the text? I think this is the essence of his point of no-boundaries. Animals have thought and why do we make this distinct from speech? What is the difference between big and small? Only those who judge make this distinction. THis is what ZZ argues against doing but Mozi says you must make the judgement to get to the Three Fa.

Edited October 30, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

I have already stated elsewhere that I believe that Chuang Tzu set the stage for both Religious and Alchemic Taoism to be formally established in Chinese thought and culture.

 

Now to the idea of the Great One. I already stated my opinion that Dao is not the Great One but you have not really defined what it is for you. I tend to see chapter 1 as closer to defining the Great Way... the process of life. There is repeated examples of how life is lived; why things go the way they go.

 

To this, I always look to Tzujan for my answer. It has been stated numerous times by both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu that Tao cannot be defined. This is because Tao is not "something"; it is everything. So what makes Tao 'go'? Tzujan. Its own naturalness. Tzujan is the processes of Tao and therefore the the processes of all things and all non-things. Yes, it is the "Way" of everything.

[dawei]

To this, I always look to Tzujan for my answer. It has been stated numerous times by both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu that Tao cannot be defined. This is because Tao is not "something"; it is everything. So what makes Tao 'go'? Tzujan. Its own naturalness. Tzujan is the processes of Tao and therefore the the processes of all things and all non-things. Yes, it is the "Way" of everything.

Not sure exactly what you are arguing here. I said very clearly and openly that I do not think Dao is the "Great One". You are using other phrases which I did not use so I don't know your simple position relative to Dao and the Tai Yi Sheng Shui use of "Great One".

 

As to Ziran (I prefer the modern pinyin over the outdated Wades-Giles notation), I hold it is a property ascribed as Dao's standard/rule/pattern (from DDJ 25). IMO, Dao is the all-encompassing pattern which occurs through various properties like Ziran but Dao is NOT everything; that makes it a thing.

 

IMO, Dao is a part of something more whole; it is the process part... To be very honest, One can't get there from philosophy alone... so I don't see that we can discuss it further without leaving philosophy behind. There is so much more going on but stay penned up in philosophy and you cannot see or experience it.

[Marblehead]

Not sure exactly what you are arguing here. I said very clearly and openly that I do not think Dao is the "Great One". You are using other phrases which I did not use so I don't know your simple position relative to Dao and the Tai Yi Sheng Shui use of "Great One".

 

As to Ziran (I prefer the modern pinyin over the outdated Wades-Giles notation), I hold it is a property ascribed as Dao's standard/rule/pattern (from DDJ 25). IMO, Dao is the all-encompassing pattern which occurs through various properties like Ziran but Dao is NOT everything; that makes it a thing.

 

IMO, Dao is a part of something more whole; it is the process part... To be very honest, One can't get there from philosophy alone... so I don't see that we can discuss it further without leaving philosophy behind. There is so much more going on but stay penned up in philosophy and you cannot see or experience it.

 

Well, I was agreeing with you but now I see we have different understandings. Doesn't matter, really.

 

I have always understood "Great One" to be just another name for "Tao". But even if this is valid it is still an error to try to label "Tao". (The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.)

 

Wayne L Wang, in his "Dynamic Tao", translates line 12 of Chapter 25 as:

 

Heaven follows Tao.

Tao follows Tzujan.

 

Personally, I think that using labels like "Great One" is getting too close to attempting to identify or personify Tao. I think that this is an error.

 

And I will agree that our philosophies are limited to only the Manifest, the Manifest being only a small portion of Tao (everything that is). Beyond that we can speak only comparatively, comparing the Manifest with all else. I suppose that is called "Spirituality".

[dawei]

Wayne L Wang, in his "Dynamic Tao", translates line 12 of Chapter 25 as:

 

Heaven follows Tao.

Tao follows Tzujan.

 

Personally, I think that using labels like "Great One" is getting too close to attempting to identify or personify Tao. I think that this is an error.

Speaking of Ziran and chapter 25... Here is an interesting read by James Wang of the Chinese University of Hong Kong

http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

 

 

And I will agree that our philosophies are limited to only the Manifest, the Manifest being only a small portion of Tao (everything that is). Beyond that we can speak only comparatively, comparing the Manifest with all else. I suppose that is called "Spirituality".

Maybe it is what we styled as 'Dao'...

[Marblehead]

Speaking of Ziran and chapter 25... Here is an interesting read by James Wang of the Chinese University of Hong Kong

http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

 

Yes. An excellent article on the concept. I read that a while back after first incountering the concept (Tzujan) after reading Wayne Wang's translation.

 

Maybe it is what we styled as 'Dao'...

 

Sure. Why not? When speaking to the human aspect of this I usually use the term "self realization" or "self actualization".

[lienshan]

Now to the idea of the Great One. I already stated my opinion that Dao is not the Great One

but you have not really defined what it is for you.

The Great One is defined in the below 15 lines of Ta Yi Sheng Shui.

The number 15 seems important and occurs in the first line of Liezi's 'The Yellow Emperor':

 

The Yellow Emperor sat for fifteen years on the throne

 

The 15 Ta Yi Sheng Shui lines:

 

1. The Great One gives birth to water

2. The return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven

3. The heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth.

4. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit.

5. The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang.

6. The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons.

7. The return of the four seasons mutually assist thus completing freeze and boil.

8. The return of freeze and boil mutually assist thus completing moisture and fluid.

9. The return of moisture and fluid mutually assist thus completing a year and ends.

10. Therefore: What's a year is the birth of moisture and fluid.

11. What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil.

12. What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang.

13. What's yin and yang is the birth of light and spirit.

14. What's light and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth.

15. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One.

 

The Zhuangzi chapter 1 structure seems to be made of maybe these 15 paragraphs:

 

1. The Kun in the north sea

2. *The Kun changes to Peng; south pool heaven

3. *The Riddles of Qi

4. *The boat in a cup of water

5. *The cicada and educated dove

6. The morning mushroom and summer cikada; night-day and four seasons

7. *The Questions of Tang to Li; north pool heaven

8. The Scolding Quail

9. The Song Rongzi

10. The Liezi and a 10 days period and 5 days (15 days in Legge's translation)

11. The emperor Yao and Xu You; cook and sacrificial priest

12. The Jian Wu and Lian Shu; to mold Yao and Shun

13. The hat salesman travelling south and the emperor Yao travelling north

14. The Huizi and Zhuangzi; gourd usage

15. The Huizi and Zhuangzi; tree usage

 

The name Peng occur in five paragraphs marked *

It's very hard to believe that there's a directly connection between the two texts,

but it's maybe an inspiring way to look at the whole chapter 1 as one single text.

Edited October 31, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

interesting but check your source. The Yellow Emperor ruled 15 years and then went to understand the Dao... but he ruled after that as well.

[lienshan]

Yao wants to hand his well established throne to a highly qualified respectable person as his successor.

It was because his son was not good enough to rule his kingdom.

That's the modernized (read confucian) version

 

The fact is, according to exavacated bamboo annals, that Shun rebelled against Yao,

and that Shun banished Yao's son, who was killed. A passage in Mozi's book 1 says that:

 

Thus Shun came under the influences of Xu You and Bo Yang;

Yu, under that of Gao Tao and Bo Yi;

Tang, under that of Yi Yin and Zhong Hui;

and King Wu, under that of the Grand Duke and Duke Zhou.

Now these four kings had been under good influences.

 

The confucian falsification of history seems to be Zhuangzi's target here,

and he continues in two paragraphs of the chapter 1 section C.

 

The above came to light during the international 5 years project dating ancient China,

and more detailed in professor Alan Kam-leung Chan's book about Mencius.

 

The problem was, as I understand it, that Yao became 'senile dementia'.

That's a problem, if he's a sageking that you if confucian must praise,

and it's ofcourse a much greater problem to the mohist 'root fa'

because quoting ancient sagekings prooves their theory!

 

That must be the reason why Zhuangzi displays the sage as more or less insane

E.g. in the Jian Wu and Lian Shu paragraph discussing Jie Yu.

Jie Yu occurs in the analects 18.5 :

 

The madman of Chu, Jie Yu, passed by Confucius, singing and saying, "O Feng! O Feng! How is your virtue degenerated! As to the past, reproof is useless; but the future may still be provided against. Give up your vain pursuit. Give up your vain pursuit. Peril awaits those who now engage in affairs of government." Confucius alighted and wished to converse with him, but Jie Yu hastened away, so that he could not talk with him.

Edited October 31, 2011 by lienshan

[lienshan]

interesting but check your source. The Yellow Emperor ruled 15 years and then went to understand the Dao... but he ruled after that as well.

I know but did only quote the first use of '15 years' to link Liezi to 10 + 5 (15).

There's too a link to 10 + 5 in the last paragraph of chapter 1: the Ailanthus tree!

It's either male (yang) or female (yin).

The female flowers contain 10 (or rarely 5 through abortion) sterile stamens with heart-shaped anthers.

The Ailanthus was medicinally used to cure mental illnesses.

That's proberly the link to emperor Yao?

 

The previous gourd paragraph is maybe too linking to medicinally use?

The doctors would carry medicine inside a gourd, so it has fabled properties for healing.

The gourd is believed to absorb negative earth-based qi, that would otherwise affect health.

 

Gourds were also grown in earthen molds to form different shapes with imprinted design,

and dried to house pet crickets, which were kept for their song and fighting abilities.

This might explain 'the mold of Yao and Shun' in the Jian Wu and Lian Shu paragraph?

[dawei]

The Great One is defined in the below 15 lines of Ta Yi Sheng Shui.

 

The 15 Ta Yi Sheng Shui lines:

 

1. The Great One gives birth to water

2. The return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven

3. The heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth.

4. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit.

5. The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang.

6. The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons.

7. The return of the four seasons mutually assist thus completing freeze and boil.

8. The return of freeze and boil mutually assist thus completing moisture and fluid.

9. The return of moisture and fluid mutually assist thus completing a year and ends.

10. Therefore: What's a year is the birth of moisture and fluid.

11. What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil.

12. What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang.

13. What's yin and yang is the birth of light and spirit.

14. What's light and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth.

15. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One.

That doesn't sit well with me because it is describing transformation not definition.

[Aaron]

edit- I decided to not participate in this study. I don't care for the Chuang Tzu and after reading the following chapter found it to be less enticing than I did when I was a kid in college and more open to this type of nonsense.

 

Aaron

Edited November 1, 2011 by Twinner

[3deedit]

if you numberr the chapters of the CHUANG TZU: YOU'LL REACH THE NR 59

i use the essential TAO from THOMAS CLEARY

see:www.3deedit.be and click on TAO

[3deedit]

No. You are a creation that has been afforded free will and the power of making choices and taking responsibility for your actions.

 

So you have no right to blame or praise whatever supreme power you believe in.

 

You are the utility (instrument) of your own making.

 

So what does the above section say to you?

My link

 

theSIX ELEMENTALS to work with: see also the LNGI CH'I CHING Ralph D Sawyer& Mei-shun Lee Sawyer

[Marblehead]

My link

 

theSIX ELEMENTALS to work with: see also the LNGI CH'I CHING Ralph D Sawyer& Mei-shun Lee Sawyer

 

Yep. There are a lot of people into that. I'm not one of them.

[Miro]

Xiejia asked:

 

What is the different between Master Rong and Master Lie?

 

Both were practitioners who refused to work for gevernment (an extreme position in China, at least after Confucius) because they were immersed in internal things. We can say Rongzi was something like beginner level, Liezi advanced level and there is also immortals level.

Rongzi was fully focused on his internal work but ZZ says he stopped there, he still did not planted himself firmly enough (obviously ZZ knew better).

Liezi was more advanced, he was able to ride on the wind of Heaven and Earth, but his work still was not finished, he still had to wait for something (and ZZ of course knew what).

Only Perfect man, Spirit-like man and Sagely-minded man have these 3 characteristics:

1. no self

2. no merit

3. no fame

 

What is Emperor Yao trying to do? Why does he want to do that.

Why does Xun You refuse Emperor Yao?

 

Yao wanted to pass his throne to Xun because he thoght Xun is better. Xun refused because Yao was good enough and if he takes throne, it would be considered only because of fame which is just an illusion and not worth of doing so. In other words, Xun refused because of no self, no merit, no fame. Because it does not make sense to change what works good enough (under Yao), exactly like bird needs only one branch to nest and not many or the best or strongest branch.

 

How are they compared to the way of Master Rong and Lie?

 

Xun and Yao as well as Rongzi and Liezi, all displayed (in the different situations and on the different levels) the qualities of no self, no merit, no fame.

 

Miro