Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section B

[Miro]

hmmmmmmm......

I believe ZZ is a philosopher. He was not a Taoist priest nor a shaman.

 

Oh, no. The whole book is description of his spiritual practice and intuitive understanding coming from this practice... Sorry, but no philosopher can discover that breathing is done from the heel, every practitioner knows it by practical experience. Etc. ZZ certainly dabbled in Shamanism, it will be obvious in next chapters, he belonged into lineage of school or into lineage at least several generations of transmission between teacher and student and I do not think that transmission was just a philosophical talking.

 

Miro

[Marblehead]

Both were practitioners ...

 

Miro

 

Nice responses! Thanks for joining in.

[Marblehead]

Oh, no. The whole book is description of his spiritual practice ...

 

Hehehe. You're cheating. You apparently have read The Chuang Tzu more than once. But you are right, of course.

[ChiDragon]

Yao wanted to pass his throne to Xun because he thoght Xun is better.

 

I just wanted to get the fact straight. Yao wanted to pass his throne to Xun was because he was getting old. He wanted to pass the throne to a highly qualified person. Normally, it was customary in China, a throne was always passed down to the first born son as the crowned prince. However, Yao did not want his throne to be ruined by his unqualified son. Therefore, he thought of passing his throne outside of the family.

 

The Yao-Xun story was a very famous story in the Chinese history. There was a term given for this action called 禪讓(shan4 rang4): to abdicate the throne to a qualified person instead of the next of kin. Yao was famous and given credit, in the Chinese history, because of this noble act.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. You're cheating. You apparently have read The Chuang Tzu more than once. But you are right, of course.

 

Right.....???

What did you say about adding more or less to the story...???

[3deedit]

Yep. There are a lot of people into that. I'm not one of them.

ling ch'i ching relly captures the tao and what tao reflcts itself in nature

[Marblehead]

Right.....???

What did you say about adding more or less to the story...???

 

Oh, I 'member what I said. I just don't want to overuse the phrase.

[Miro]

I just wanted to get the fact straight. Yao wanted to pass his throne to Xun was because he was getting old. He wanted to pass the throne to a highly qualified person. Normally, it was customary in China, a throne was always passed down to the first born son as the crowned prince. However, Yao did not want his throne to be ruined by his unqualified son. Therefore, he thought of passing his throne outside of the family.

 

The Yao-Xun story was a very famous story in the Chinese history. There was a term given for this action called 禪讓(shan4 rang4): to abdicate the throne to a qualified person instead of the next of kin. Yao was famous and given credit, in the Chinese history, because of this noble act.

 

ChiDragon,

 

you are of course right, this is a famous story, however, there is very slight angle of view in ZZ's story. Historical story is about Yao and his noble act, while story ZZ descibes here is about Xun (not about Yao). Therefore, I think, these are two different stories, or perhaps better - one story with two different points. ZZ does not care about noble act of Yao (because of principles no self, no merit, no fame - in next chapters we will see that according to him, even to live in the mud like tortoise is better than work for government etc.), the point of ZZ's story is that Xun refused work for goverment, or perhaps more precisely: to take his job, to take a job of any other man - and we can only guess why: because his own (internal) work is more important? That is why this story belongs to story about Rongzi and Liezi, because Xun belongs to them.

 

From there we can go back to beginning of 1st chapter, namely story about Kun and Peng. I can not be sure, of course, and I have to say frankly that I do not know how to interpret this story (that is why I did not wrote my interpretation in that particular A section), however, I really think (well, guess) that the only interpretation which is somehow related to the rest of first chapter is that Kun and Peng story describes vastness and limitlessness of human being. In my interpretation ZZ wants to say something like that:

1. Man has no limitations, he is limitless.

2. Something huge and perhaps limitless is in every man - ZZ calls it Kun. ZZ says it lies on the north (north is down in ancient Chinese topography), therefore (I guess, again) on the bottom side of his body.

3. It can change into something else, still huge or limitless, what he calls Peng and then it can fly to south (to the up of the map - or perhaps to the up of the body).

4. ZZ knows how to fly to the south and what follows, is the description of the process.

5. Small creatures laugh at all this (exactly like Laozi described in DDJ). ZZ shows their arguments, for example: "he who goes to a distance of 100 li will have to pound his grain where he stops for the night; he who goes a thousand li, will have to carry with him provisions for three months." This argumentation is of course wrong, because small creatures do not know that Peng during his flight does not need to eat, drink, sleep etc. so ZZ logically asks: "What should these two small creatures know about the matter?" etc.

6. On the other hands, there are longevity creatures but longevity itself is not the aim, that is why trying to emulate Peng is pathetic according to ZZ. What is really important, is this limitlessness beyond limitlessness.

(I left out some further smaller points, sorry, this just a main idea of the A and B section of 1st chapter.)

 

And now ZZ goes in this C section (of Marblehead's translation - he describes those who live in limitlessness - like the description of Immortal from Gu Ye (obviously a great Shaman). He could even mould and fashion kings like Yao and Shun but he did not care about them and it is obvious why - because similar man does not occupy himself with things (like that). And when Yao visited those immortals at Gu Ye, he decided to abdicate, because he was not able to see his throne and his kingdom anymore (because he saw something else, something Xun exactly wanted more than Yao's throne). What is it what Yao and Xun wanted (more than throne and country)? Limitlessness of immortals from Gu Ye, spirituality, practice. Throne is useless - and then the stories about great things and useless things follow. Great things (we are still talking aboul limitlessness here) can not be changed and divided into small things - see stories about cabalash, bleaching. They need to be used in great scope by great men. These men do not want use things, they accept practical uselessness of great things.

That is more-less about the first chapter of ZZ. It is just an introduction - things will be more interesting later.

 

Miro

[dawei]

Xun refused work for goverment, or perhaps more precisely: to take his job, to take a job of any other man - and we can only guess why: because his own (internal) work is more important?

Exactly. It is not so much Yao's ability to have stabilized the world which turns Xun away but he had (possessed) something more important. Later Yao founds this.

 

(I wonder if I had shared that thought/opinion/belief earlier, then I would of been warned to not make such 'early assumption')

 

nice write-up Miro.

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon,

 

you are of course right, this is a famous story, however, there is very slight angle of view in ZZ's story. Historical story is about Yao and his noble act, while story ZZ descibes here is about Xun (not about Yao). Therefore, I think, these are two different stories, or perhaps better - one story with two different points. ZZ does not care about noble act of Yao (because of principles no self, no merit, no fame - in next chapters we will see that according to him, even to live in the mud like tortoise is better than work for government etc.), the point of ZZ's story is that Xun refused work for goverment, or perhaps more precisely: to take his job, to take a job of any other man - and we can only guess why: because his own (internal) work is more important? That is why this story belongs to story about Rongzi and Liezi, because Xun belongs to them.

 

Yes, you are right. ZZ introduced the Yao-Xun story in Chapter One is for the purpose so he can referred back to later. In this chapter, ZZ was using the story to emphasize that Xun was strongly believes in the principles of no-self, no-merit, no-fame. That was the main reason why Xun was refused to accept Yao's throne. Indeed, there was no guess work about that...

Edited November 7, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

In this chapter, ZZ was using the story to emphasize that Xun was strongly believes in the principles of no-self, no-merit, no-fame. That was the main reason why Xun was refused to accept Yao's throne. Indeed, there was no guess work about that...

That is an interesting thought... that Xun was the highest [of the three] levels; an Immortal from Gu Ye. I had not thought in that line. Why didn't someone just say that at the beginning

 

I had thought he was probably (Ok... an assumption) at the Liezi level; deep seeker but not the immortal status but I'm reading for the first time and open to what unfolds here.

[Marblehead]

(I wonder if I had shared that thought/opinion/belief earlier, then I would of been warned to not make such 'early assumption')

 

nice write-up Miro.

 

Just wanted to let you know that I saw this. Hehehe.

 

Edit to add:

 

Yes, nice post Miro!

Edited November 7, 2011 by Marblehead

[dawei]

Just wanted to let you know that I saw this. Hehehe.

I made an early assumption you would

[3deedit]

That is an interesting thought... that Xun was the highest [of the three] levels; an Immortal from Gu Ye. I had not thought in that line. Why didn't someone just say that at the beginning

 

I had thought he was probably (Ok... an assumption) at the Liezi level; deep seeker but not the immortal status but I'm reading for the first time and open to what unfolds here.

why don't you use a pendulum and ask a question?

 

43 Overcoming 24

 

7

 

 

QUESTIONS

 

 

use pendulum

 

 

The gentlest thing in the world

overcomes the hardest thing in the world.

That which has no substance

enters where there is no space.

This shows the value of non-action.

 

Teaching without words,

performing without actions:

that is the Master's way.