Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section C

[dawei]

Although there is discussion prior to this (quoted below) about a particularly 'spirit-life' one at this same mountain; do you interpret that as one specific ethic or what?

 

'Far away on the hill of Gu Ye there dwelt a Spirit-like man whose flesh and skin were (smooth) as ice and (white) as snow; that his manner was elegant and delicate as that of a virgin; that he did not eat any of the five grains, but inhaled the wind and drank the dew; that he mounted on the clouds, drove along the flying dragons, rambling and enjoying himself beyond the four seas; that by the concentration of his spirit-like powers he could save men from disease and pestilence, and secure every year a plentiful harvest.'

 

 

I think that your style of thinking was wearing off on me as I started to think about the Yellow Emperor's Four Classics... I need to keep myself in better check

 

BTW: 藐姑射之山 is in Liezi as 姑射山

[dawei]

That would fit with previous paragraph if the Song hatseller is read as being Confucius himself.

The problem with this is two fold:

1. Confucius is not from Song but from Lu, although he traveled to Song... I don't think it was to sell hats but he was clearly trying to sell himself. He was proverbially speaking a man without a country-state.

2. Song was anciently considered a state of dunces; Think wearing a dunce cap in the corner. The Shang dynasty leftovers lived there, so the Zhou may of had some ill-remarks for them.

[dawei]

A man of Song, who dealt in the ceremonial caps (of Yin), went with them to Yue, the people of which cut off their hair and tattooed their bodies, so that they had no use for them. Yao ruled the people of the kingdom, and maintained a perfect government within the four seas. Having gone to see the four (Perfect) Ones on the distant hill of Gu Ye, when (he returned to his capital) on the south of the Fen water, his throne appeared no more to his deep-sunk oblivious eyes.

Ok... here is the reference to the hat-salesman... I don't see this as in anyway linked to Confucius; it is only linked to Yao. It shows what he is going through.

[lienshan]

I view the internal links between the four last paragraphs (and the first) in this way:

 

The ceremonial hats relate to the usefulness of the gourds.

The Sizi 4 virtues relate to the usefulness of the ailanthus tree.

The hat-salesman travels to the dark sea of the south - the non-chinese state Yue.

The emperor Yao travels to the dark sea of the north - Gu Ye at the mongolian border.

 

 

Although there is discussion prior to this (quoted below) about a particularly 'spirit-like' one at this same mountain;

do you interpret that as one specific ethic or what?

I view 'the spirit-like man' at Gu Ye as relating to the earlier saying about Liezi:

 

Thus called: a grounded man has no self, the spiritual man has no merit, a sage has no title

 

故曰 ： 至人無己 , 神人無功 , 聖人無名

 

This relates directly to the two chapter 64 versions of the Guodian Tao Teh Ching

but sshhh ... it's not popular to bring substandard stuff into these fine threads

 

至 means either 'a bird landing' or 'the superlative degree'.

Legge choosed the latter but the first makes more sense when called 'grounded'.

The samples of 'grounded men' are Song Rongzi and Yin Wen (Scolding Quail).

 

神 is as an adjective the opposite that'll say 'spiritual'.

The sample is Liezi ... and maybe the four confucian virtues?

 

Both 'grounded' and 'spiritual' are entitling the respective men.

聖人 (holy man) has no title so the best pick is 'sage'.

Edited November 2, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Although there is discussion prior to this (quoted below) about a particularly 'spirit-life' one at this same mountain; do you interpret that as one specific ethic or what?

 

I think that your style of thinking was wearing off on me as I started to think about the Yellow Emperor's Four Classics... I need to keep myself in better check

 

BTW: 藐姑射之山 is in Liezi as 姑射山

 

Actually, I never accepted any of that to be a reality truth. Just a faerie tale. I am sure the concept could have been efficiently presented without the faerie tale.

 

Indeed, don't get wrapped up into my way of thinking. That would screw you up really bad.

[Marblehead]

Ok... here is the reference to the hat-salesman... I don't see this as in anyway linked to Confucius; it is only linked to Yao. It shows what he is going through.

 

But I think it is linked to Confucianism what with their ceremonial hats and clothing, even to the point where everything needs to be a specific color for specific ceremonies.

[Marblehead]

but sshhh ... it's not popular to bring substandard stuff into these fine threads

 

I would expect a comment from Rene if she reads this. Hehehe.

[lienshan]

Ok... here is the reference to the hat-salesman... I don't see this as in anyway linked to Confucius; it is only linked to Yao. It shows what he is going through.

The problem with this is two fold:

1. Confucius is not from Song but from Lu, although he traveled to Song... I don't think it was to sell hats but he was clearly trying to sell himself. He was proverbially speaking a man without a country-state.

2. Song was anciently considered a state of dunces; Think wearing a dunce cap in the corner. The Shang dynasty leftovers lived there, so the Zhou may of had some ill-remarks for them.

Confucius replied, 'When I was little, I lived in Lu, and wore the garment with large sleeves;

when I was grown up, I lived in Song, and was then capped with the kang-fu cap.

 

How are you able to distinguish between Confucius and a Song man?

He was, according to himself, like Song men capped with a kang-fu cap!

 

Great-small is in focus at the beginning of the chapter but outside-inside at the end.

[XieJia]

Yao ruled the people of the kingdom, and maintained a perfect government within the four seas. Having gone to see the four (Perfect) Ones on the distant hill of Gu Ye, when (he returned to his capital) on the south of the Fen water, his throne appeared no more to his deep-sunk oblivious eyes.

 

In my humble opinion,

Hill of Gu Ye is presented as some kind of realisations; I think one could also see something from dissecting the Chinese Characters.

 

The People who live at Gu Ye, the Spirit-guy and the four dudes.

 

[dawei]

But I think it is linked to Confucianism what with their ceremonial hats and clothing, even to the point where everything needs to be a specific color for specific ceremonies.

Ok, based on Lienshan's interesting quote I remain open to a Confucian connection. But wonder if Song is the origin of the dunce cap idea, and if ZZ wants to relate it to Confucius he is possibly calling him a dunce.

 

Actually, I never accepted any of that to be a reality truth. Just a faerie tale. I am sure the concept could have been efficiently presented without the faerie tale.

I remain open on this issue too so I don't lose any possible meaning. It is talked about in various ancient texts; almost like, why do so many ancient countries talk of Dragons yet we consider them fairy tales. But my exposure to Qigong and Shengong and reading of Tibetan magic leaves me willing to read such 'fairy tales' to see if there is something deeper or true coming out of it.

[dawei]

In my humble opinion,

Hill of Gu Ye is presented as some kind of realisations; I think one could also see something from dissecting the Chinese Characters.

 

The People who live at Gu Ye, the Spirit-guy and the four dudes.

 

So indulge us

[dawei]

I view 'the spirit-like man' at Gu Ye as relating to the earlier saying about Liezi:

I am not sure I agree. I do agree with the three parts you show below for that section and the associations (ie: that Spirit-like reference is Liezi); but spirit-like Liezi was still dependent on something (there was still something for which he had to wait) and ZZ follows with a clear contrast:

 

But suppose one who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable - what has he to wait for?

 

Thus, Liezi is not the sage and is not the spirit-like one at Gu Ye. This latter one is is the third type of man: The Sage who did not eat any of the five grains, but inhaled the wind and drank the dew.

 

 

Thus called: a grounded man has no self, the spiritual man has no merit, a sage has no title

 

故曰 ： 至人無己 , 神人無功 , 聖人無名

 

至 means either 'a bird landing' or 'the superlative degree'.

Legge choosed the latter but the first makes more sense when called 'grounded'.

The samples of 'grounded men' are Song Rongzi and Yin Wen (Scolding Quail).

 

神 is as an adjective the opposite that'll say 'spiritual'.

The sample is Liezi ... and maybe the four confucian virtues?

 

Both 'grounded' and 'spiritual' are entitling the respective men.

聖人 (holy man) has no title so the best pick is 'sage'.

At first, I did not like the idea of 'grounded' since I see it more like 'arriving'; the strictest understanding of the character though would be to arrive or be in the ground.

 

I can see why Legge choose Perfect to show the ascension in a honorific sense:

1. Perfect to

2. Spiritual to

3. Sage

 

But I actually like the picture of the ascension as:

1. Grounded (Having boundaries; all the stories of limited vision and distinction; this and that; Kun) to

 

2. Spirited (skyward; ascending beyond boundaries like Kun-Peng; but may also be a picture of what Yao is going through by going to see the Four Masters) to the

 

3. Sagely (who is without boundaries; One who mounts the ether of Heaven and Earth; Peng).

Edited November 3, 2011 by dawei

[XieJia]

Gu She （Ye)

姑 射

(I used Chinese Text Project as my source and Wenlin)

Separating out the characters

女 (nu) - women/female

古 (gu) - ancient/age-old or not following current customs/practices

身 (Shen, this is not the same shen as spirit shen 神) - Body

寸 (cun) - Picture of hand with a thumb

The Oracle Bone version of 射 depict a Bow with a Hand/Arrow; Shen means shoot/fire.

I will leave the interpretation to each own accord.

Edited November 3, 2011 by XieJia

[lienshan]

Hill of Gu Ye is presented as some kind of realisations;

I think one could also see something from dissecting the Chinese Characters.

藐姑射之山 , 汾水之陽

 

藐 miao : insignificant (Ku-she is not high but stands high above the surrounding area)

姑 gu : mother in law

射 she : archery (listed by Confucius as one of six arts required of a scholar)

之 zhi : its

山 shan : mountain

 

汾 fen : Fen (a tributary of the Yellow River)

水 shui : water

之 zhi : its

陽 Yang : yang (downstream southwards, sunny side of a mountain, opposite of yin)

 

Mount Ku-she is situated north of river Fen at the mongolian border.

[dawei]

Gu She （Ye)

姑 射

(I used Chinese Text Project as my source and Wenlin)

Separating out the characters

女 (nu) - women/female

古 (gu) - ancient/age-old or not following current customs/practices

身 (Shen, this is not the same shen as spirit shen 神) - Body

寸 (cun) - Picture of hand with a thumb

The Oracle Bone version of 射 depict a Bow with a Hand/Arrow; Shen means shoot/fire.

I will leave the interpretation to each own accord.

Well, I could of done that... I was interested in your interpretation of the issues you mentioned

[Marblehead]

Ok, based on Lienshan's interesting quote I remain open to a Confucian connection. But wonder if Song is the origin of the dunce cap idea, and if ZZ wants to relate it to Confucius he is possibly calling him a dunce.

 

Would Chuang Tzu make such a suggestion? Actually, based on other things he has said, I think he would.

 

I remain open on this issue too so I don't lose any possible meaning. It is talked about in various ancient texts; almost like, why do so many ancient countries talk of Dragons yet we consider them fairy tales. But my exposure to Qigong and Shengong and reading of Tibetan magic leaves me willing to read such 'fairy tales' to see if there is something deeper or true coming out of it.

 

Indeed, it is a given that nearly all myths have their roots in some reality in the past. The stories become more amazing over time as things are removed from and added to the stories.

 

Being a skeptic, my first reaction is to doubt. Just the way I am.

[lienshan]

At first, I did not like the idea of 'grounded' since I see it more like 'arriving';

the strictest understanding of the character though would be to arrive or be in the ground.

I try another shot:

 

至人無己 a materialist has no self

神人無功 an idealist has no achievement

聖人無名 a sage has no title

 

Despite the large number of philosophical schools and subtle nuances between many,

all philosophies are said to fall into one of two primary categories,

which are defined in contrast to each other: Materialism and Idealism.

 

A typical materialist is Song Rongzi and a typical idealist is Liezi.

Edited November 3, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

A typical materialist is Song Rongzi and a typical idealist is Liezi.

 

I guess Y'all can call me a Song Rongziist. I love labels!!! When I go shopping I always read them.

[lienshan]

I guess Y'all can call me a Song Rongziist. I love labels!!!

Wrong guess ... I prefer to label you Scolding Quail

 

Yin Wen (the scolding quail) was disciple of Song Rongzi, both scholars at the Jixia Academy in Qi.

An example of their materialistic philosophy from 'The Riddles of Qi':

 

The accumulation of water; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support a large boat.

Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat.

Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; the water is shallow and the boat is large.

The accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings.

Therefore the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it;

thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient.

Edited November 3, 2011 by lienshan

[XieJia]

Let me share my attempt then.

In my humble experience, this chapter mainly revolve around the uses of 'words' and the concept around it.

Freeing ourselves from the conceptual bondage. I think the feel can be tied indirectly to DDJ like chapter 2.

 

The Spirit-Man symbolize the Ideal/True 'Man or the 'Completed Human Beings'.

Chien Wu don't understand this he viewed it as conflicted to his constrained understandings.

That is why Lien Shu commented so.

For something to be bad, there must be good first. For something to be incomplete, it started off as complete.

The nature of words/thinking/concepts are created with thus. This is the same with Blindness and Deafness. Without Seeing, or Hearing; there won't be Blindness or Deafness.

So in Dawei's vocab; This and That

'That' because of 'This'

So without 'This', there won't be 'that'

We could also apply this with Lienshan's favorite pair of 'Objectivity' and 'Subjectivity' if one deem appropriate.

The Hill of Gu Ye is at the Northern Border next to Mongolia as Dane have pointed out;

it is the boundary that the things that applied by the Chinese no longer applies to the same values/beliefs for the Mongols (Tribal people).

Labels is Labels when the words people communicate shared the same meanings.

When the 'Words' doesn't point the same thing, they lose their value of communication.

I feel that Zhuangzi is also saying in a similar terms to Laozi that Words and its meaning is temporary.

If one are to constrict their own thinkings with the words they used; this is bringing burden upon one-selves.

The 'four' Yao encountered isn't really important (I think Zhuangzi use this device to make us try to provoke names and reference, only to know that it doesn't really matter at the hill of Gu Ye, this is similar to the Monkey thingy). But if pressed, I would like to second you guys as the four confucian virtues; by seeing the reality of them such as the blinded sees and the deaf hears. He see what he thought to be 'incomplete' as 'complete' whole within his being.

Edited November 3, 2011 by XieJia

[XieJia]

至人無己

神人無功

聖人無名

As Dane and Steve (in Chapter 1A) have pointed out beautifully.

The Arrived have no-self.

The Holy have no-achieving.

The Exalt have no name.

No-self therefore Arrived.

No-Achieving therefore Holy.

No-Name therefore exalt.

Have a good Day.

[ChiDragon]

Would Chuang Tzu make such a suggestion? Actually, based on other things he has said, I think he would.

 

 

Indeed, it is a given that nearly all myths have their roots in some reality in the past. The stories become more amazing over time as things are removed from and added to the stories.

 

Being a skeptic, my first reaction is to doubt. Just the way I am.

 

Yes.....

[ChiDragon]

至人無己:

An ultimate person has no self which made him selfless.

 

神人無功"

A divine person does not go after merit for his own glory.

 

聖人無名:

A well educated person does not go after fame for an empty title.

[dawei]

Indeed, it is a given that nearly all myths have their roots in some reality in the past. The stories become more amazing over time as things are removed from and added to the stories.

 

Being a skeptic, my first reaction is to doubt. Just the way I am.

I think there is some misunderstanding as to what I said and meant. I am not talking about doubt vs belief. I only said I was 'open' to it; what it may mean. I commented on how I would stay 'open' to a Confucian connection on the other issue. I am not just gong to close my mind for the sake of 'fairy tale'. I don't have to believe them in order to try and understand the connection it is meant to convey.

[dawei]

The Spirit-Man symbolize the Ideal/True 'Man or the 'Completed Human Beings'.

But I assume you do not include Liezi in this, even though he was mentioned as a Spirit (although not complete)?

 

I feel that Zhuangzi is also saying in a similar terms to Laozi that Words and its meaning is temporary.

If one are to constrict their own thinkings with the words they used; this is bringing burden upon one-selves.

Agreed.

 

The 'four' Yao encountered isn't really important (I think Zhuangzi use this device to make us try to provoke names and reference, only to know that it doesn't really matter at the hill of Gu Ye, this is similar to the Monkey thingy). But if pressed, I would like to second you guys as the four confucian virtues; by seeing the reality of them such as the blinded sees and the deaf hears. He see what he thought to be 'incomplete' as 'complete' whole within his being.

I think that there is some form of transformation which ZZ wants to present about Yao; It may be that the 4 Confucian virtues is 'incomplete' and he comes to realize this. Not sure if that is what you are getting at.