Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section C

[lienshan]

至人無己 a materialist has no self

神人無功 an idealist has no achievement

聖人無名 a sage has no title

The structure of Zhuangzi chapter 1 based on the above translation:

 

 

The opening paragraph: the Kun changes to Peng story.

 

The Riddles of Qi: the materialistic explanation of the Kun and Peng paragraph.

The idealistic cicada and dove have a laugh.

 

The Questions of Tang to Ji: the idealistic explanation of the Kun and Peng paragraph.

The materialistic quail has a laugh.

 

Presentation of the materialist Song Rongzi.

Presentation of the idealist Liezi.

 

The Yao and Xu You paragraph; about a materialistic hero.

The Jian Wu and Lian Shu paragraph; about an idealistic hero.

 

The ceremonial hats salesman travels south; about a materialistic failure.

The emperor Yao travels north; about an idealistic failure.

 

The Zhuangzi and Huizi gourd paragraph; about a materialistic success.

The Zhuangzi and Huizi tree paragraph; about an idealistic success.

[Marblehead]

I think there is some misunderstanding as to what I said and meant. I am not talking about doubt vs belief. I only said I was 'open' to it; what it may mean. I commented on how I would stay 'open' to a Confucian connection on the other issue. I am not just gong to close my mind for the sake of 'fairy tale'. I don't have to believe them in order to try and understand the connection it is meant to convey.

 

No, I didn't misunderstand and I truely was not trying to suggest you were saying anything other than what you said. I was just pointing out my understanding/opinion on the subject.

 

Now, I may sometimes misunderstand you, or anyone else, but please, if anyone ever thinks I am trying to speak for another person I would expect them to jump in my case.

 

Beliefs are beliefs. We each have our own set. Mine should never effect anyone else's. The Great Pumpkin lives!!! Long live the Great Pumpkin!!!

[XieJia]

 

But I assume you do not include Liezi in this, even though he was mentioned as a Spirit (although not complete)?

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

I think that there is some form of transformation which ZZ wants to present about Yao; It may be that the 4 Confucian virtues is 'incomplete' and he comes to realize this. Not sure if that is what you are getting at.

 

 

1) I didn't include him. (The Spirit Man is a ideals, Liezi pursued that ideal).

 

3)Yes, I mean the act of pursuing 4 Confucian Ideals is 'incomplete'.

(Based upon constriction of words and how people believe in it; in Gu Ye, what did the Four become for the Tribal people? Same with the Hat?)

 

I somehow agreed with Lienshan about the materialst/idealist (If we need to use those words ).

 

Beliefs are beliefs. We each have our own set. Mine should never effect anyone else's. The Great Pumpkin lives!!! Long live the Great Pumpkin!!!

 

I think that sum things up nicely, Beliefs are Beliefs (who knows when it stopped being beliefs for oneself?)

 

 

Take care guys

Edited November 3, 2011 by XieJia

[dawei]

No, I didn't misunderstand and I truely was not trying to suggest you were saying anything other than what you said. I was just pointing out my understanding/opinion on the subject.

 

Now, I may sometimes misunderstand you, or anyone else, but please, if anyone ever thinks I am trying to speak for another person I would expect them to jump in my case.

 

Beliefs are beliefs. We each have our own set. Mine should never effect anyone else's. The Great Pumpkin lives!!! Long live the Great Pumpkin!!!

Thanks for clarifying... you brought in 'doubt' when that was not a part of what I was getting at, but we are open to sharing our belief about the passages.

[dawei]

(Based upon constriction of words and how people believe in it; in Gu Ye, what did the Four become for the Tribal people? Same with the Hat?)

Other than useless, I am not sure what your fishing for great Kun-Peng

 

I think they can act as a pointer for transformation if one heeds their completeness.

 

In the case of Yao, he goes from seeing his own uselessness and wants to pass off the throne; yet after meeting the 4 'Zi' he seems to 'forget' what it means to be 'incomplete' or 'complete'. He is :

窅然喪其天下焉 - his throne appeared no more to his deep-sunk oblivious eyes - Legge

 

I tend to see Yao is also as one 'seeking' something and he has a almost mystical 'forgetting' occur; Thus, this may of moved him from an Arrived Man to a Spiritual Man.

Edited November 4, 2011 by dawei

[XieJia]

I think they can act as a pointer for transformation if one heeds their completeness.

 

I didn't say that it become entirely useless.

It is only useless upon the intended purpose.

 

Like with Marble's use of the rain bucket in the other thread.

Everything still have its use.

So no, imagine how big my fishing rod have to be to catch the great Kun

and ensnare the great Peng.

 

Agreed, in a way.

The Path of the Four have been take to the completion,

Yao got closer to the Way imho.

[lienshan]

至人無己 a materialist has no self

神人無功 an idealist has no achievement

聖人無名 a sage has no title

I somehow agreed with Lienshan about the materialst/idealist (If we need to use those words ).

The first of Zhuangzi's three statements is grammatically illegal and thus very hard to translate.

己 is the personal pronoun 'oneself, yourself, himself' being a subjective noun when after 無

至 is the verb 'to arrive' or the noun 'arrival' but has here the position of an adjective.

 

My way to understand was to change the two first negative statements into one of two positive statements:

 

至人有功 a materialist has an achievement

至人有名 a materialist has a title

神人有己 an idealist has a self

神人有名 an idealist has a title

 

While the third negative cannot in the same way be changed into one of the two positive statements:

 

聖人有己 a sage has a self

聖人有功 a sage has an achievement

 

The reason why is, that the sage has no philosophy!

[Marblehead]

But I have a Self.

 

I am a materialist.

 

Therefore a materialist can have a Self.

 

What about that???

[lienshan]

But I have a Self.

We do all have a Self. The chinese point at their nose saying 'zi' (known from the term ziran).

 

But Zhuangzi used another character, the personal pronoun, as a noun to express the 'self'.

 

That's why I read his 'self' as a non-materialistic expression.

[Marblehead]

We do all have a Self. The chinese point at their nose saying 'zi' (known from the term ziran).

 

But Zhuangzi used another character, the personal pronoun, as a noun to express the 'self'.

 

That's why I read his 'self' as a non-materialistic expression.

 

Just checking. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

The first of Zhuangzi's three statements is grammatically illegal and thus very hard to translate.

己 is the personal pronoun 'oneself, yourself, himself' being a subjective noun when after 無

至 is the verb 'to arrive' or the noun 'arrival' but has here the position of an adjective.

 

My way to understand was to change the two first negative statements into one of two positive statements:

 

至人有功 a materialist has an achievement

至人有名 a materialist has a title

神人有己 an idealist has a self

神人有名 an idealist has a title

 

While the third negative cannot in the same way be changed into one of the two positive statements:

 

聖人有己 a sage has a self

聖人有功 a sage has an achievement

 

The reason why is, that the sage has no philosophy!

 

You had changed ZZ's philosophy 180 degrees out of phase.

You are doing exactly the opposite as ZZ asked people not to do.

 

[ChiDragon]

My personal translation:

 

Chien Wu asked Lien Shu for help: "I had heard the talking from Chieh Yi. It was all lies without boundary. When he start talking, he goes off on a tangent and never return to the main point. I was very frightened about his words, it seems like boundless as the Milky Way Galaxy; and it was extraordinary and so remote from others. In reality, it was so unreasonable."

 

Lien Shu asked: "What did he say?"

 

Chien Wu explained: "On the top of Gu Ye hill far way from here, there is an immortal lived there, his skin is clear white seems like icy snow, the body is so soft seems like a virgin, he does not eat the five grains, he breathes the clean wind and drinks the sweet dew, he rides on the clouds seems like a fling dragon, he travels outside the four seas. His appearance was so devoted, he can free all things in the world from diseases and make every year to have a great harvest of the five grains. I reckon that was all empty talks and everything was unbelievable."

 

After Lien Shu heard then said: "Yes! In regarding to the blinds, It's impossible to appreciate the decorative design and colors with them; and to the mutes, it was impossible to share the musical sounds of the bells and drums with them. Could it be said that only a physical body has mute and blindness? Our thinking also could be muted and blinded. This seems was addressing to you, Chien Wu. That immortal(神人), his virtue status was like so. He has blended in with all things together. With that, it was able him to take care the whole world. Then who would consider that involving with the busy world affairs was nothing to it. With this kind of person, there was no external matter that can harm him; the great floods cannot drown him; he would not feel the heat an eruption of a volcano. With any scraps of dust and crumbs of bread and grain as wastes like that, he can produce the kind of sagacious rulers like Yao and Xun, how would he be considering in caring for all things as his obligation."

Edited November 13, 2011 by ChiDragon