Chuang Tzu Chapter 1, Section C

[Marblehead]

Jian Wu asked Lian Shu, saying, 'I heard Jie Yu talking words which were great, but had nothing corresponding to them (in reality); once gone, they could not be brought back. I was frightened by them; they were like the Milky Way which cannot be traced to its beginning or end. They had no connexion with one another, and were not akin to the experiences of men.' 'What were his words?' asked Lian Shu, and the other replied, (He said) that 'Far away on the hill of Gu Ye there dwelt a Spirit-like man whose flesh and skin were (smooth) as ice and (white) as snow; that his manner was elegant and delicate as that of a virgin; that he did not eat any of the five grains, but inhaled the wind and drank the dew; that he mounted on the clouds, drove along the flying dragons, rambling and enjoying himself beyond the four seas; that by the concentration of his spirit-like powers he could save men from disease and pestilence, and secure every year a plentiful harvest.' These words appeared to me wild and incoherent and I did not believe them. 'So it is,' said Lian Shu. 'The blind have no perception of the beauty of elegant figures, nor the deaf of the sound of bells and drums. But is it only the bodily senses of which deafness and blindness can be predicated? There is also a similar defect in the intelligence; and of this your words supply an illustration in yourself. That man, with those attributes, though all things were one mass of confusion, and he heard in that condition the whole world crying out to him to be rectified, would not have to address himself laboriously to the task, as if it were his business to rectify the world. Nothing could hurt that man; the greatest floods, reaching to the sky, could not drown him, nor would he feel the fervour of the greatest heats melting metals and stones till they flowed, and scorching all the ground and hills. From the dust and chaff of himself, he could still mould and fashion Yaos and Shuns - how should he be willing to occupy himself with things?' A man of Song, who dealt in the ceremonial caps (of Yin), went with them to Yue, the people of which cut off their hair and tattooed their bodies, so that they had no use for them. Yao ruled the people of the kingdom, and maintained a perfect government within the four seas. Having gone to see the four (Perfect) Ones on the distant hill of Gu Ye, when (he returned to his capital) on the south of the Fen water, his throne appeared no more to his deep-sunk oblivious eyes.

 

Huizi told Zhuangzi, saying, 'The king of Wei sent me some seeds of a large calabash, which I sowed. The fruit, when fully grown, could contain five piculs (of anything). I used it to contain water, but it was so heavy that I could not lift it by myself. I cut it in two to make the parts into drinking vessels; but the dried shells were too wide and unstable and would not hold (the liquor); nothing but large useless things! Because of their uselessness I knocked them to pieces.' Zhuangzi replied, 'You were indeed stupid, my master, in the use of what was large. There was a man of Song who was skilful at making a salve which kept the hands from getting chapped; and (his family) for generations had made the bleaching of cocoon-silk their business. A stranger heard of it, and proposed to buy the art of the preparation for a hundred ounces of silver. The kindred all came together, and considered the proposal. "We have," said they, "been bleaching cocoon-silk for generations, and have only gained a little money. Now in one morning we can sell to this man our art for a hundred ounces - let him have it." The stranger accordingly got it and went away with it to give counsel to the king of Wu, who was then engaged in hostilities with Yue. The king gave him the command of his fleet, and in the winter he had an engagement with that of Yue, on which he inflicted a great defeat, and was invested with a portion of territory taken from Yue. The keeping the hands from getting chapped was the same in both cases; but in the one case it led to the investiture (of the possessor of the salve), and in the other it had only enabled its owners to continue their bleaching. The difference of result was owing to the different use made of the art. Now you, Sir, had calabashes large enough to hold five piculs; why did you not think of making large bottle-gourds of them, by means of which you could have floated over rivers and lakes, instead of giving yourself the sorrow of finding that they were useless for holding anything. Your mind, my master, would seem to have been closed against all intelligence!'

 

Huizi said to Zhuangzi, 'I have a large tree, which men call the Ailantus. Its trunk swells out to a large size, but is not fit for a carpenter to apply his line to it; its smaller branches are knotted and crooked, so that the disk and square cannot be used on them. Though planted on the wayside, a builder would not turn his head to look at it. Now your words, Sir, are great, but of no use - all unite in putting them away from them.' Zhuangzi replied, 'Have you never seen a wildcat or a weasel? There it lies, crouching and low, till the wanderer approaches; east and west it leaps about, avoiding neither what is high nor what is low, till it is caught in a trap, or dies in a net. Again there is the Yak, so large that it is like a cloud hanging in the sky. It is large indeed, but it cannot catch mice. You, Sir, have a large tree and are troubled because it is of no use - why do you not plant it in a tract where there is nothing else, or in a wide and barren wild? There you might saunter idly by its side, or in the enjoyment of untroubled ease sleep beneath it. Neither bill nor axe would shorten its existence; there would be nothing to injure it. What is there in its uselessness to cause you distress?'

[konchog uma]

[konchog uma]

In light of how the later part of section 1, or the "inner chapters" as they are known, progresses, i am inclined to agree with Apech about relativity being the dominant theme. Of course, old Chuang would have known of cultivation so perhaps those references exist as he meant them, or perhaps they just exist cause i see them. Who knows.

 

I love the part about the useless tree. When i was a kid i carved my life out of that story, and a couple other Chuang Tzu gems . I felt lucky to see the sense in not wanting people to be interested in me at a young age, and i still do. Now i have no profession to speak of (im a janitor and a freelance artist) but my life is so rich and happy because I have cultivated myself with special isms (daoism buddhism shamanism etc). Even just looking back on the last 15 years of cultivation brings water to my eye that story meant so much to me.

 

Well, i have brambles for brains, tis a veritable forest in there, so i will let other people talk

[Cosmo]

You, Sir, have a large tree and are troubled because it is of no use - why do you not plant it in a tract where there is nothing else, or in a wide and barren wild? There you might saunter idly by its side, or in the enjoyment of untroubled ease sleep beneath it. Neither bill nor axe would shorten its existence; there would be nothing to injure it. What is there in its uselessness to cause you distress?'

 

The useless is useful. While the useful quickly becomes useless.

[XieJia]

Subsection 1:

Note/Biased Observations

 

Jian Wu 肩吾 literary translated to Shoulder Self.

Lian Shu 連叔: Connect/Right Away Uncle.

Jie We 接輿 translated to Connect/Direct Carriage/Area.

 

Questions:

 

What does JianWu hear in JieWe's words? What makes him troubled?

What is Lian Shu's answer? What does he implies? What is he doing?

What is the significant of Mountain of Gu Ye (You might need to read Chinese 藐姑射之山)

Who is the Man, Lian Shu is talking about?

Why can't anything hurt him?

What of the Man of Song?

Who are the Four Ones that Emperor Yao met on the hill of Gu Ye and what happend to his throne?

Edited October 21, 2011 by XieJia

[XieJia]

What is actually useful?

What is actually useless?

Who is the judge of such?

Look and See accordingly; the objectivity of the subjective. (I like borrowing words)

 

Edited October 21, 2011 by XieJia

[Cosmo]

What is actually useful?

What is actually useless?

Who is the judge of such?

Look and See accordingly; the objectivity of the subjective. (I like borrowing words)

 

 

Something that is useful is something that gets used. Something that is useless is something that does not. Usefulness and uselessness are the same thing.

[Marblehead]

The useless is useful. While the useful quickly becomes useless.

 

I have mentioned in other threads that I have tried to replace dualistic thinking with the concept of "useful or useless (to me)". It does work, in the most part. This thinking removes the act of valuing things for others. Values are set as they apply to only me.

[Marblehead]

Jian Wu asked Lian Shu, saying, 'I heard Jie Yu talking words which were great, but had nothing corresponding to them (in reality); once gone, they could not be brought back.

 

This first sentence is so beautiful it is beyond words. But Chuang Tzu found a way to talk about the concepts within. These concepts, difficult to see right now, will be seen again and again as we go through the chapters.

[Marblehead]

Oh Goodness! More questions! Are there answers?

 

What does JianWu hear in JieWe's words? What makes him troubled?

 

Words that he cannot relate to his reality. Of course, this itself would be troubling. Again, we see the theme of prespective. Note that Lian Shu used the word "intelligence" instead of "knowledge".

 

What is Lian Shu's answer? What does he implies? What is he doing?

 

That there can be deafness and blindness of the mind as well as the ears and eyes.

 

What is the significant of Mountain of Gu Ye (You might need to read Chinese 藐姑射之山)

 

The point of enlightenment.

 

Who is the Man, Lian Shu is talking about?

 

An immortal. But be careful with this. Chuang Tzu doesn't really mean someone who can live forever but rather of someone who can walk in the forest and not fear tigers and rhinos. This is talking about "awareness".

 

Why can't anything hurt him?

 

Because he is aware! In the total state of wu wei.

 

What of the Man of Song?

 

One of the "learned ones". A Confucian. Hehehe.

 

Who are the Four Ones that Emperor Yao met on the hill of Gu Ye and what happend to his throne?

 

No idea who the Four Ones were but nothing happened to his throne, something happened to him.

 

 

 

Anyone care to suppliment or disagree with me?

[XieJia]

Lol

@Marble

You don't have to took it upon yourself to answer all more question.

I neither needed them answer or not. But I do agree to the feel of your answer and like your comments.

I also like how Zhuangzi build the concepts.

 

@Cosmo

Usefulness and Uselessness are one of the same but what makes things useful or useless?

[lienshan]

Oh Goodness! More questions! Are there answers?

 

Note that Lian Shu used the word "intelligence" instead of "knowledge".

Or did James Legge translate 知 as "intelligence" instead of "knowledge"?

 

Oops ... one more question

[Marblehead]

Or did James Legge translate 知 as "intelligence" instead of "knowledge"?

 

Oops ... one more question

 

Oh!, don't you go getting technical on me now! Hehehe

 

How would I know? You are the one who reads Chinese. You tell me.

[Cosmo]

 

Usefulness and Uselessness are one of the same but what makes things useful or useless?

 

The subjectivity of what is inside of us.

[Marblehead]

The subjectivity of what is inside of us.

 

It took me all this time for the question and response to fully sink in.

 

Excellent response!!!

 

Subjectivity is internal - objectivity is external.

[manitou]

The sage wastes nothing or no man. He finds use for all.

 

I think the man of Song is an enlightened one. He is attached to nothing, change is his reality. He does not cling to the way things "were", instead he is at one with the change of the seasons of life. This is why he is the man of Song - he is light. Enlightened.

 

The sage would be a lover of all men, regardless of how hard some people make it for others to love them. He would recognize the God-nature in each and recognize it as the same within himself.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.

 

Please everyone, translate in your mind, every time you see the word "God" to read "Tao". There is no "God" in Taoism.

[Cosmo]

Hehehe.

 

Please everyone, translate in your mind, every time you see the word "God" to read "Tao". There is no "God" in Taoism.

It all means the same thing. Different words for the same thing. Tao is no more accurate than God. They are both inaccurate. Because they can both be spoken of

[konchog uma]

quite so cosmo

 

dao is impersonal, god is personified, all the same to DaoGodWhateveritis

 

that thing doesnt care what you call it

[Apech]

Hehehe.

 

Please everyone, translate in your mind, every time you see the word "God" to read "Tao". There is no "God" in Taoism.

 

Plenty gods in some forms of Taoism ... but none in yours.

[Apech]

I think there is a theme emerging here which says "that which is true is that which is useful and that which useful is that which can be understood."

 

OR ... you make a thing useful or not by understanding its nature.

 

OR ... stop thinking about things and limits of their uses and start thinking about possibilities.

 

(I keep changing my mind) lol

[Cosmo]

I think there is a theme emerging here which says "that which is true is that which is useful and that which useful is that which can be understood."

 

OR ... you make a thing useful or not by understanding its nature.

 

OR ... stop thinking about things and limits of their uses and start thinking about possibilities.

 

(I keep changing my mind) lol

 

The 1st and 2nd thing are the same.

 

And so maybe the third.

 

Bah. Zhaungzi would nod to all of those.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Jian Wu asked Lian Shu, saying, 'I heard Jie Yu talking words which were great

 

I feel like an important lesson from this is about envy. The Spirit-Like-Man showed himself to be immensely simple, "his manner was elegant and delicate as that of a virgin" and yet he was immensely powerful.

 

Jian Wu was probably asking Jie Yu how to make himself more powerful, so Jie Yu showed him that his power is in not trying to be high and mighty. If he wanted only to be high and mighty then he would miss his true value in the same way the the gourd and the knotted tree were thought to be useless because the observer wanted to see what they thought it should be.

 

What I also get from this is about being honest with ourselves. We might want to be strong all the time, but in doing so miss that there is value in having feeling, for example. This might confuse the connections for Buddhists, but so long as those feelings don't become Ego then they are detached, imo..

[Marblehead]

It all means the same thing. Different words for the same thing. Tao is no more accurate than God. They are both inaccurate. Because they can both be spoken of

 

Good try. For some "God" is a personified being. That make this usage very unlike the word "Tao". I do agree the the word "Tao" defines nothing. That is to say Tao is everything. Tao is. That is all that can be said. The word "God" brings forth illusions and delusions in the mind of many readers.

[Marblehead]

quite so cosmo

 

dao is impersonal, god is personified, all the same to DaoGodWhateveritis

 

that thing doesnt care what you call it

 

But is Tao a thing? I suggest not. "God" is always a thing for nearly everyone.