amm1985 Posted October 21, 2011 Hi all I'm wondering if anyone has tried integrating zen practice with zhan zhuang. I've done much zen in the past, and have recently come to zhan zhuang, and in the interest of keeping my spiritual practices clean and simple (dont have that much time in the day) I've been trying to integrate the two (eg, think of nothing while doing ZZ, wait for samadhi). Wonder if anyone here has had any experience with this attitude towards practice. sort of like this: http://www.taikiken.org/book_zen2.html would appreciate any responses! thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted October 21, 2011 Hi all I'm wondering if anyone has tried integrating zen practice with zhan zhuang. I've done much zen in the past, and have recently come to zhan zhuang, and in the interest of keeping my spiritual practices clean and simple (dont have that much time in the day) I've been trying to integrate the two (eg, think of nothing while doing ZZ, wait for samadhi). Wonder if anyone here has had any experience with this attitude towards practice. sort of like this: http://www.taikiken.org/book_zen2.html would appreciate any responses! thanks. That's how i was taught and practiced Zhan zhuang, for me it was more effective at building internal power than focusing on breathing and the like. I guess it's a bit more difficult as you have no distractions, but IMO thats a positive not a negative if you know what i mean . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nilo Posted October 21, 2011 I prefer simplicity as well. I do recommend that you become a self scientist and see what works for you despite what anyone else says. This is what has been working for me: -just standing with knees comfortably bent and meditate as you would sitting down (for it is just allowing whatever arises in mind) -When standing becomes painful then I sit down, wiggle around and meditate. If this starts to feel dull or lifeless then I go back to standing. This practice has probably brought the biggest change for me personally. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted October 21, 2011 There are different descriptions of the purpose of Zen sitting, but also largely that there is or should be no purpose. Just sit and be aware. So the difficulty, from my perspective, of doing zen and qi gong at the same time is that during qi gong you are doing something, even while doing nothing in the case of some sitting meditations. In Zen you are doing nothing while doing nothing, and in Zen walking meditation, you are doing nothing while walking. So, my suggestion, fwiw, if you want to do Zen while standing, practice with walking meditation. Do do so, sit in meditation for 20 to 30 minutes, then gasho (hands in prayer while bowing, sign of oneness) and walk the perimeter of your room (tracing furniture etc.) for 5 to 8 minutes while keeping the same mind as during the sitting meditation. When you you have the hang of this, you might have a better idea of what to do during standing Zen. Thanks for the link.. I like the swaying movement part especially. Again, this is just my take on it. Its not uncommon for Taoist and Zen meditation to be considered the same, which in many ways they are. I also think there is a difference between meditation for overall health, and meditation for clarity and awareness, though they are mutually beneficial. For me, I think it helps to make the distinction rather than trying to reach one by the other, but I mix them all the same.. my approach is pretty non-linear at this point.. it's not for everyone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TzuJanLi Posted October 22, 2011 Greetings.. Position your knees so that only a faint outline of your toes are visible when you look downward by tilting your head downward.. create dynamic/springy tension in the legs, and relax the feet, relaxing the feet is not as easy as it sounds.. relax the abdomen, the low back, and the glutes.. when you do this the pelvis will swing downward, rotating on the tops of the femurs, and releasing most of the curve in the low-back, at this 'release' you should feel a tangible shift as the 'girdle tension' that divides the body into upper/lower regions is minimized.. breathe naturally, Normal Abdominal Breathing unless you are comfortable with Reverse Abdominal Breathing, but.. for ZZ, NAB is more productive.. the spine should be perpendicular to the ground and aligned with the pull of gravity, do not confuse body-mass with spine in this exercise.. when the spine is perpendicular, the body-mass is forward, shifting weight into the arches and balls of the feet, while the heels remain firmly connected.. pull the chin toward the spine while pushing the crown upward, and touch the tongue to the roof of the mouth just behind the front teeth.. take inventory, and revise as necessary.. no unnecessary tension.. hands/palms (Lao Gong) pointing toward the heart, index fingers parallel to the ground at collar-bone height, and elbows downward.. hands halfway between touching the chest and fully extended forward, 'tree-hugging' position.. "No-thought".. a still and silent mind is not concerned with posture once it achieved, so.. a period of disciplining muscle memory and creating pathways for the flow of Life-force to animate the ZZ structure while the mind suspends its 'thinking' processes.. then, after understanding and 'feeling' this structure, and the effects of this structure in relationship with a holistic understanding of the body and its energetic systems it is more beneficial to explore 'no-thought'.. In the ZZ posture with 'no-thought' it is not uncommon to experience shaking, pulsing, sudden jerks, etc.. as blockages are adjusted or removed.. subtle swaying or rhythmic movements often reflect internal rhythms, but you won't notice too much because you are in the space of clarity.. i sense, observe, and experience with a clear mind and a coherent energetic body that is standing in a posture favorable for deep and clear awareness as a conduit for the flow of Life-force/Qi, and.. it is my personal experience that the interconnected and interdependent relationships of Life 'happening' are revealed.. the difficulty is to remain in that space of clarity and structure without yielding to the desire to run tell people about this experience..it takes time to build a tolerance to the 'rush' of expanding awareness, and more time to tame the excitement of that 'rush'.. and it's all very nuch worth the price of admission, though.. Be well.. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiraltao Posted October 22, 2011 Greetings.. Position your knees so that only a faint outline of your toes are visible when you look downward by tilting your head downward.. create dynamic/springy tension in the legs, and relax the feet, relaxing the feet is not as easy as it sounds.. relax the abdomen, the low back, and the glutes.. when you do this the pelvis will swing downward, rotating on the tops of the femurs, and releasing most of the curve in the low-back, at this 'release' you should feel a tangible shift as the 'girdle tension' that divides the body into upper/lower regions is minimized.. breathe naturally, Normal Abdominal Breathing unless you are comfortable with Reverse Abdominal Breathing, but.. for ZZ, NAB is more productive.. the spine should be perpendicular to the ground and aligned with the pull of gravity, do not confuse body-mass with spine in this exercise.. when the spine is perpendicular, the body-mass is forward, shifting weight into the arches and balls of the feet, while the heels remain firmly connected.. pull the chin toward the spine while pushing the crown upward, and touch the tongue to the roof of the mouth just behind the front teeth.. take inventory, and revise as necessary.. no unnecessary tension.. hands/palms (Lao Gong) pointing toward the heart, index fingers parallel to the ground at collar-bone height, and elbows downward.. hands halfway between touching the chest and fully extended forward, 'tree-hugging' position.. "No-thought".. a still and silent mind is not concerned with posture once it achieved, so.. a period of disciplining muscle memory and creating pathways for the flow of Life-force to animate the ZZ structure while the mind suspends its 'thinking' processes.. then, after understanding and 'feeling' this structure, and the effects of this structure in relationship with a holistic understanding of the body and its energetic systems it is more beneficial to explore 'no-thought'.. In the ZZ posture with 'no-thought' it is not uncommon to experience shaking, pulsing, sudden jerks, etc.. as blockages are adjusted or removed.. subtle swaying or rhythmic movements often reflect internal rhythms, but you won't notice too much because you are in the space of clarity.. i sense, observe, and experience with a clear mind and a coherent energetic body that is standing in a posture favorable for deep and clear awareness as a conduit for the flow of Life-force/Qi, and.. it is my personal experience that the interconnected and interdependent relationships of Life 'happening' are revealed.. the difficulty is to remain in that space of clarity and structure without yielding to the desire to run tell people about this experience..it takes time to build a tolerance to the 'rush' of expanding awareness, and more time to tame the excitement of that 'rush'.. and it's all very nuch worth the price of admission, though.. Be well.. WOW! Thanks for all the pointers. I've been doing jam jong for a year now. ...and I am highly interested yi quan. I know the five energy strikes, pretty much the same as xingy five elements, but the way master lam kam Chuen describes them in his book "Chi Kung Way of Power", they seem more natrual for me. ...but for me, I have always tried to maintain the clear mind, or rather mind of no mind as the Grand Master Rick Pickens and Sifu Scott Harris have taught. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted October 22, 2011 Greetings.. Position your knees so that only a faint outline of your toes are visible when you look downward by tilting your head downward.. create dynamic/springy tension in the legs, and relax the feet, relaxing the feet is not as easy as it sounds.. relax the abdomen, the low back, and the glutes.. when you do this the pelvis will swing downward, rotating on the tops of the femurs, and releasing most of the curve in the low-back, at this 'release' you should feel a tangible shift as the 'girdle tension' that divides the body into upper/lower regions is minimized.. breathe naturally, Normal Abdominal Breathing unless you are comfortable with Reverse Abdominal Breathing, but.. for ZZ, NAB is more productive.. the spine should be perpendicular to the ground and aligned with the pull of gravity, do not confuse body-mass with spine in this exercise.. when the spine is perpendicular, the body-mass is forward, shifting weight into the arches and balls of the feet, while the heels remain firmly connected.. pull the chin toward the spine while pushing the crown upward, and touch the tongue to the roof of the mouth just behind the front teeth.. take inventory, and revise as necessary.. no unnecessary tension.. hands/palms (Lao Gong) pointing toward the heart, index fingers parallel to the ground at collar-bone height, and elbows downward.. hands halfway between touching the chest and fully extended forward, 'tree-hugging' position.. "No-thought".. a still and silent mind is not concerned with posture once it achieved, so.. a period of disciplining muscle memory and creating pathways for the flow of Life-force to animate the ZZ structure while the mind suspends its 'thinking' processes.. then, after understanding and 'feeling' this structure, and the effects of this structure in relationship with a holistic understanding of the body and its energetic systems it is more beneficial to explore 'no-thought'.. In the ZZ posture with 'no-thought' it is not uncommon to experience shaking, pulsing, sudden jerks, etc.. as blockages are adjusted or removed.. subtle swaying or rhythmic movements often reflect internal rhythms, but you won't notice too much because you are in the space of clarity.. i sense, observe, and experience with a clear mind and a coherent energetic body that is standing in a posture favorable for deep and clear awareness as a conduit for the flow of Life-force/Qi, and.. it is my personal experience that the interconnected and interdependent relationships of Life 'happening' are revealed.. the difficulty is to remain in that space of clarity and structure without yielding to the desire to run tell people about this experience..it takes time to build a tolerance to the 'rush' of expanding awareness, and more time to tame the excitement of that 'rush'.. and it's all very nuch worth the price of admission, though.. Be well.. Good stuff man, always a good pov - would you be so kind as to elaborate on "more productive" - simply because I spend my zz time about 50/50 Sometimes one will be more productive than another, depending on context, so I was curious how context and production fit together here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TzuJanLi Posted October 22, 2011 Greetings.. Good stuff man, always a good pov - would you be so kind as to elaborate on "more productive" - simply because I spend my zz time about 50/50 Sometimes one will be more productive than another, depending on context, so I was curious how context and production fit together here Hi Joe: Thanks, that was in the context of "no-thought".. i follow a similar 50/50 practice, including YiQuan structures and RAB.. Be well.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted October 22, 2011 Makes perfect sense You also! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
