Xing Yi Nei Gong By Dan Miller

[DanC]

I purchased this book yesterday, not sure why but from what I have read it has some really

cool Qigong/Nei Gong exercises in it. Anyone else have it and if so what are your opinions?

 

Daniel

[DustWalker]

I purchased this book yesterday, not sure why but from what I have read it has some really

cool Qigong/Nei Gong exercises in it. Anyone else have it and if so what are your opinions?

 

Daniel

 

Dan, could you please tell me more about the nature of these exercises?

 

In martial circles there seems to be two popular definitions of neigong around. First and most common is the definition of neigong as physical strenght-building poses that usually are static. Second and far less common is the idea of subtle energy manipulation/visualisation aka. internal alchemy.

 

In which camp does this book fall into? The first or second or little of both?

[...]

yeah, man, can you tell us a little more about the book?

 

I am very interested... especially after my last successful purchase of 'qigong eompowerment'...

[DanC]

It falls into the first category, it is a series of 16 physical exercises aimed at maintaing internal health and

vitality as well as internal power development. It can be purchased at amazon...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Xing-Nei-Gong-Mainte...t/dp/0865681740

 

Daniel

[Yoda]

I got it, too. I never really got into it, but it's cool to see these really old men be as flexible as little kids.

[DanC]

Yoda can you give me a run down on what its about, is it fairly simple to follow etc etc..

 

Daniel

[sean]

Always wanted to check this one out. Heard good things. There is a companion video too you know.

[mwight]

Does anyone here own this book?

[Hua Dao]

Its a good book for someone studying xingyi but if you're expecting a good daoyin qigong it's not really in there it's more like basic jibengong exercises: shoulder, waist, neck, and knee circles; toe touches, arm swinging, cat style push-ups etc.

[mwight]

if anyone could post a summary of 2 pages for me I would really appreciate it :)

 

looking for page 53 and 54 which deal with neigong. I dont want to buy the whole book for 2 pages lol.

[寒月 Hanyue]

BUMP on an OLD thread

 

Figured I might as well.

 

I have no idea if those that posted in it are still around, but using their posts will be easier than writing an essay from scratch, I hope

 

I purchased this book yesterday, not sure why but from what I have read it has some really cool Qigong/Nei Gong exercises in it. Anyone else have it and if so what are your opinions?

 

Daniel

 

The OP. Read on.

 

could you please tell me more about the nature of these exercises?

 

In martial circles there seems to be two popular definitions of neigong around. First and most common is the definition of neigong as physical strenght-building poses that usually are static. Second and far less common is the idea of subtle energy manipulation/visualisation aka. internal alchemy.

 

In which camp does this book fall into? The first or second or little of both?

 

Simplest answer is BOTH. The presentation by Miller and Cartmell shows their personal biases (we all have them) and this means it is far easier to understand the 'physical' aspects of the set from the book.

 

The problem here is twofold.

 

As I recall, and I have not read the book cover to cover for sometime. But, I don't beleive Wang Jiwu referred to these exercises as 'xingyi neigong'. They were called 'xinyi liu he sixteen movements internal-external training'. His son Wang Lianyi does however often use the term neigong and this is where the English language book title might have come from.

 

But, Miller and Cartmell present a definition of neigong in the book, which is;

 

"Nei Gong--training of muscle groups, ligaments, and tendons not usually under conscious control--is the too often forgotten sister of the more familiar Chi Kung (the coordinated movement of the body with breath control in order to increase circulation to the distal points of the extremities). Nei Gong, Chi Kung, and Wai Kung (Wai Kung: the most obvious aspects of any martial art, like balance, flexibility, and coordination that allows proper gross body movement), are three aspects of martial ability and development that together form any complete martial training program."

 

This shows what they consider neigong to be, and colours the presentation of the materials they collected and edited into the book. I am not saying that the above definition is incorrect, the above is certainly part of what is going on with martial neigong. However,

 

Master Wang Jiwu was a Daoist who studied Daolist cultivation with a reclusive Daoist Master and his disciple. He was also a Chinese Doctor. He clearly explains that there are three aspects to his long life and health, xingyiquan, xiaotian gong (pre-heaven/birth cultivation), and the xingyi baojian gong (xingyi health practices). So you have to bear this in mind if you only look at the physcial health exercises.

 

Additionally he also explains the importance of wai (outside/outer) and nei (inside/inner) and understanding their relationship (more on this later). It seems unfortunate that what is primarily presented in the book, and certainly all that is shown in the video, is the outer shell. It is clear reading the writings of Master Wang Jiwu and of his son Wang Lianyi that what they are referring to when mentioning 'internal cultivation' (neigong) it is not what is alluded to in Miller and Cartmell's definition above. It is even clearer when put in a wider contextual context of Wang Jiwu's teachers and peers, that his concept of 'neigong' is different to the one provided the reader.

 

So you read the title, xingyi neigong, you are armed with a definition of what 'neigong' is, and then you read the book. I can't help but feel its simply pointed the reader in the wrong direction to much of what Master Wang Jiwu tried to transmit.

 

The reality is that these exercises are BOTH the physcial health exercises AND internal cultivation married together. That is why they are beneficial.

 

It falls into the first category, it is a series of 16 physical exercises aimed at maintaing internal health and vitality as well as internal power development.

See above.

 

Always wanted to check this one out. Heard good things. There is a companion video too you know.

 

The video is worthless and a waste of time. The video is simply meant as a visual companion to the book, it has no instructions, you can simply watch Tim Cartmell going through the exercises.

 

But, as I understand it, he is not doing them correctly for two main reasons.

 

One, there is no 'neigong' in them (in the sense of what Wang Jiwu refers to regarding internal cultivation), he does them simply as physcial jibengong.

 

Two, students of Zhao Baoyang have openly critised the video and Cartmell's demonstration stating that he was never taught them fully and obviously doesn't understand them.

 

This is not to diminish Tim Cartmell's achievements in martial arts nor his abilities.

 

Its a good book for someone studying xingyi but if you're expecting a good daoyin qigong it's not really in there it's more like basic jibengong exercises: shoulder, waist, neck, and knee circles; toe touches, arm swinging, cat style push-ups etc.

 

You have to understand the wider textural context and see past the surface.

 

For one, these were taught to Master Wang's patients as soon as they were able to do them. They are not therefore simply for xingyi.

 

I am glad of the scholarly ambitions of Miller and Cartmell. During the process of gathering, translating, and editing the materials on the set of exercises they discovered a book had previously been published in Chinese by Wang Jiwu's son. This book, entitled 神功 shengong had a chapter on the exercises.

 

What is interesting to note is that the disciples of Master Wang Jiwu supplying the materials for the book told Miller and Cartmell not to bother with the shengong book, as the descriptions were too esoteric and used too much technical Chinese medical language. They encouraged them to use more straight forward descriptions. Thankfully Miller decided to use both. Although the vast majority of the book leads the reader to one view, it means that there is enough to see past this into Master Wang's actual legacy.

 

It is in the words of Wang Jiwu himself, and in those of his son that the Daoist cultivation practice that is actually at the heart of these exercises is retained. Although it is not layed out 'systematically' for the reader, there is enough to have a good insight into the perspective of Master Wang and his cultivation.

 

It is not the simple external movements of this set that matters. Though they are, for the most part, an easy set of exercises that will keep the physical body in good shape.

 

looking for page 53 and 54 which deal with neigong. I dont want to buy the whole book for 2 pages lol.

 

There is more than two pages that deal with "neigong". But it is obscured in my opinion. I will lay out some extracts of it for the interested;

 

"The xin (heart/Being) is calm, quiet as still water.

 

One must always maintain a calm xin even when influenced by the seven emotions...The xin must remain as calm as still water....Without desire one is strong, without desire one is quiet, without desire one may return to that which is natural, without desire one returns to the original state.

 

With a xin like still water, from the extreme stillness will spring action, from the void comes that which is alive, yin and yang in harmony and the qi flows unimpeded. With a xin like still water the qi is sufficent and the shen (spirit) full. When the qi is sufficient and the shen full, the organs function normally, the xue (blood) is nourisehd, the jingluo (channels), nerves, digestion, and circulation are all healthy and the metabolism stimulated....

 

I put special emphasis on the shen as the leader, ever strengthening my resolve to cultivate the shen, maintain calmness of the xin and become as pure as light without a speck of dust....this cultivation of the shen and the xin will improve the physical constitution of the people, protect their health, and contribute to a long and healthy life."

 

"Xingyi quan, the health exercises of Xingyi quan, and the xiantian (pre-heaven) method of cultivation have been the treasures that have given me a lifetime of benefits in good health."

 

-- Wang Jiwu 1891-1991 (written at around 100 years of age)

 

"The history of qigong is very long and its sources varied. Buddhists, Daoists, Confucianists, Chinese medical practitioners, martial artists, and the arts of Xingyi quan, Taiji quan, Bagua zhang, and Shaolin quan all have their own theories, methods of practice and special chracteristics. Each of these methods contain deep and seemingly mysterious practices at higher levels of training...the types of qigong and methods of training have "grown as bamboo after the spring rain," with ever increasing popularity.

 

Master Wang Jiwu has prolonged his years past his one hundreth birthday and has benefited greatly from the practice of xiantian qigong and the art of xingyi quan. Based on his life long experience, mastery of the principles and method of xingyi quan and personal insights and breakthroughs, Master Wang has taken into consideration the requirements of the prevention and curing of disease, health and life extension and has developed a method of simple exercise....although deep in principle, are easy to practice. The method utilises natural, abdominal respiration to strengthen the xiantian yuan yang qi (pre-heaven original yang qi). The result is a method which opens the channels of xue (blood) and qi, increases neili (internal power), rids one of disease and improves the health.

 

It is important to maintain a cheerful and optimistic state of mind, releasing any concepts that are not conducive to good health, as well as controlling the 'seven emotions and six desires'. One should keep a quiet and happy xin, allowing the body to remain in its normal state. This will allow one to have a xin as calm as still water, comfortable, and concentrated so that the xin and shen unite as one. The breath should be natural and smooth with the tongue pressing against the roof of the mouth, the lips gently closed, the eyes looking 'inwards' and the ears listening to the self, the xin and qi are coordinated and the intent is on the dantian.

 

From the extreme of stillness, movement is born. When the xin is quiet and the body relaxed, one will come to a state of 'emptiness' in which the self is forgotten. In this state, the yuan yang qi will fill the body and circulate freely of its own accord. In this state of quiet relaxation, one should practice the xingyi exercises for health..."

 

-- Wang Lian Yi (Son of Master Wang Jiwu) excerpted from his book 'Shengong'

 

There is more that details the relationship of the external and the internal, and it CLEARLY explains what this set of movements is really about. And it is NOT simply about physical health through regular exercise, though that will ALSO occur by practicing the set.

 

The Holmesians of you will probably notice something

 

I also want to add, that the book is interesting because of the different people involved in its creation. There are different opinions and views in the book, yet it is mainly presented as one vision, which is confusing. For example the sections on 'neigong' by Wang Jinyu (one of Master Wang's students) is quite different in flavour to that alluded to above. I have my speculations as to why, but who knows?

 

Apologies for the long post.

 

All the best,

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Snowmonki

 

Very interesting and informative reply. Thanks.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Snowmonki

 

Very interesting and informative reply. Thanks.

 

Thank you, I'm glad you found it interesting.

 

I have had the book for years. I have seen much debate back and forth in reviews and on forums about its contents. It is usually ONLY viewed or discussed as a set of calisthenics, which in that light, critics often consider other sets to be preferable. Either opting for yijinjing or baduanjin derived sets, chansigong type sets, or even Western calisthenics.

 

Recently my eyes opened to another perspective, and so went back through the book while keeping Master Wang's lineage and background in mind, and was quite surprised at what I can see.

 

I think Master Wang developed a set of many layers, one that was applicable across a spectrum of abilities, hence it being taught to patients and xingyi students alike. Is it calisthenics, yes, but that is only one layer IMO.

 

Best,

Edited May 21, 2012 by snowmonki

[Ya Mu]

...

"The xin (heart/Being) is calm, quiet as still water.

 

One must always maintain a calm xin even when influenced by the seven emotions...The xin must remain as calm as still water....Without desire one is strong, without desire one is quiet, without desire one may return to that which is natural, without desire one returns to the original state.

 

With a xin like still water, from the extreme stillness will spring action, from the void comes that which is alive, yin and yang in harmony and the qi flows unimpeded. With a xin like still water the qi is sufficent and the shen (spirit) full. When the qi is sufficient and the shen full, the organs function normally, the xue (blood) is nourisehd, the jingluo (channels), nerves, digestion, and circulation are all healthy and the metabolism stimulated....

 

I put special emphasis on the shen as the leader, ever strengthening my resolve to cultivate the shen, maintain calmness of the xin and become as pure as light without a speck of dust....this cultivation of the shen and the xin will improve the physical constitution of the people, protect their health, and contribute to a long and healthy life."

...

-- Wang Jiwu 1891-1991 (written at around 100 years of age)

 

...

 

"It is important to maintain a cheerful and optimistic state of mind, releasing any concepts that are not conducive to good health, as well as controlling the 'seven emotions and six desires'. One should keep a quiet and happy xin, allowing the body to remain in its normal state. This will allow one to have a xin as calm as still water, comfortable, and concentrated so that the xin and shen unite as one. The breath should be natural and smooth with the tongue pressing against the roof of the mouth, the lips gently closed, the eyes looking 'inwards' and the ears listening to the self, the xin and qi are coordinated and the intent is on the dantian.

 

From the extreme of stillness, movement is born. When the xin is quiet and the body relaxed, one will come to a state of 'emptiness' in which the self is forgotten. In this state, the yuan yang qi will fill the body and circulate freely of its own accord. In this state of quiet relaxation, one should practice the xingyi exercises for health..."

 

-- Wang Lian Yi (Son of Master Wang Jiwu) excerpted from his book 'Shengong'

...

Nice!

I have the book; purchased it a long time ago. Forgot I had it until I saw this thread LOL.

[lifeforce]

I have had the book AND have been practicing from it daily for 10 years now and I can honestly say that all the opinions and debates are worthless unless you actually practice regularly, over a long period of time.

Then, and only then, can any debate begin.

I consider myself fortunate that I came into contact with this book, as it changed my whole life.

It is my main practice.

My physical health and strength and flexibility has improved considerably.

Resistance to infections and disease is quite unbelievable.

I can't remember the last time I had a cold or cough of any kind. It must be at least 3 years now, even if the other family members are ill.

As it says in the book, this set was put together in a unique order. For instance, the first four exercises open up the shoulder joints in every direction. In fact, a recurring theme of the exercises is to allow the fluids of the body (blood, bile, lymph etc.) to move and not to stagnate, which can cause health problems. There is a heck of a lot going on inside the body by doing these exercises than you would normally realize. They do look like basic movements, but they most certainly are not.

If there is anyone out there who has practiced this set daily for a considerable amount of time, I would be happy to share views.

Otherwise it would be like trying to describe an elephant to a blind man.

[lifeforce]

Thanks lifeforce, for your feedback. Especially about the shoulders. I have heard from some sources the importance of "flow" in the arms.

 

I'm curious about the importance of belly breathing in your practices. And how important belly breathing is for pumping/circulating the fluids of the body. (I haven't read the book nor am familiar with your practices.)

 

Belly breathing isn't discussed in the book but I use it in my sitting meditation practice.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hi Lifeforce

 

I'm glad that the book and the exercises it contains have been so beneficial to you, this is indeed what any author/publisher can hope for. And certainly what someone like Master Wang would have wanted by developing this set! I think it's awesome you've gotten so much from it. I always figured you must like it given your avatar

 

Your post, though seems to have a tone that implies I don't know what I'm talking about and should not have commented on the book, which puts me in a quandry as to how to reply.

 

I in fact agree with your statement that;

 

I can honestly say that all the opinions and debates are worthless unless you actually practice regularly, over a long period of time.

Then, and only then, can any debate begin.

 

This is certainly how my teachers feel, and so do I, regarding these subjects. Yet to enforce such things would mean virtually none of the dicsussions (as colourful and fruitful as they always are ) on this board would ever happen. Which is a dilemma indeed.

 

On the one hand I feel no need to 'defend' my previous post reviewing the materials in the book (it is a review of the presentation, NOT the efficacy of the contents). Yet I feel compelled to post again and perhaps explain further my intentions, which I suppose is defending it in a sense?

 

I also feel that this reply may be taken as a rebuttal of your post and statements, which it is not. To do so would mean I disagree with you, which I don't. As a matter of fact I would love to hear more from you regarding the benefits and your thoughts regarding the practice of the set.

 

I also want to point out that no-one is debating anything. And certainly no-one, least of all me, is debating the efficacy of Master Wang's set, which I agree would require first hand long term practice experience for an opinion. To reiterate, I am commenting in part on the presentation of the contents (by the editors/translator, who always have to decide what to include, what to cut, what to focus upon and WHO the intended market is), and primarily about some of those contents (the Daoist neigong) as I felt there may be interested parties here. Is it wrong of me to do so?

 

The only criticism of the book I have is the observation that ALL discussions and reviews of the book I have seen over the years do not address the full spectrum of Master Wang's perspective despite this appearing within the book. This I feel is due to the presentation because of the intended audience. It is NOT a criticism of the material itself.

 

I love the book, I love the set of exercises, and I love the explanations and descriptions of ALL of the layers involved in this set. Which is why I revived this thread.

 

I also appreciate the different reasons why Zhang Baoyang and Wang Jinyu wanted Miller and Cartmell to focus on the aspects that they did, recommending they ignore the esoteric explanations and descriptions. And as mentioned before, I commend them for still including parts of Wang Lianyi's descriptions even though it flies in the face of their own beliefs. My pointing out that, as with all the xingyi, bagua, and taiji neigong/daoyin I have been taught, there are many layers to it is not meant as a criticism of any one of those layers. The point is to be diligent and to benefit from the practice of it, as you have done.

 

So I hope my post didn't offend you, it is just that every time I have seen it discussed or reviewed it has always been about the 'physical' benefits of the set. Even Cartmell has equated it with the Russian mobility work of Monsieur Sonnon. Yet given the interests of many on this board I thought they would appreciate being made aware that Wang Jiwu and his son Wang Lianyi discusses and describe other aspects that can/are layered into the health exercises while not ignoring the physical components. And that might create interest where before there was none. I certainly would not presume to speak for them which is why I posted extracts from the book written by them instead. All I am doing is pointing them out and saying 'hey don't over look this they obviously thought it was important'.

 

I will post for clarification however that the book DOES NOT contain explicit instructions on the xiantiangong practiced by Master Wang, though the writings of him and his son translated in it describe it and its relationship to the health exercises. To prevent creating confusion I will post information on the xiantiangong in a different thread.

 

I also want to say that there is MUCH benefit to be had from the collected materials in the book regardless of interest in the practice of xingyi.

 

Seriously improved health and physical attributes increasing with age! I'm with you, lets have at it

 

All the best,

[Mark Foote]

I purchased this book yesterday, not sure why but from what I have read it has some really

cool Qigong/Nei Gong exercises in it. Anyone else have it and if so what are your opinions?

 

Daniel

 

I bought this book and practised the exercises for about seven years, daily. I always felt physically better after doing the set. Why I stopped doing them is unclear to me, although I will still do them when I feel the need for some stretch.

 

It's great to read your erudite response, Snowmonki, and to see something of the many layers and different aspects of Chinese martial arts.

 

My impression is that they are a very balanced set, and they proceed in an orderly fashion through the entire body, culminating in "moving hips from side to side" and easing down from there (as it were). I think perhaps "moving hips from side to side" is why I laid off doing the exercises; I needed to focus on the full lotus, where the same stretch and activity is central to the pose, and the exercise had become a distraction (albeit a temporary one, I hope).

 

What I have learned is this: the sartorius muscles turn the pelvis, as in rotation to the left and right; if the hips relax, the rotation can extend the hips and generate involuntary activity in the piriformis muscles; the piriformis muscles turn the sacrum into the rotation of the pelvis, so that the activity of the body balances. I can find the sartorius muscles, I can sink at the hips, I can pick up the activity of the piriformis and realize the balance.

 

Having said that, I would hasten to add that for me the central practice is the location of the mind in space: where am I, how does the occurrence of consciousness open the ability to feel throughout the body simply by taking place. To me this is what the title of the art implies, if in fact the translation is "shape-mind". I have a short description of how the stretch and activity present as consciousness takes place can shift in the lotus, here. I also have a description of the heart of my practice and where it can most readily be found in an essay waking up and falling asleep.

 

My study now is just about sitting 40 minutes in the morning in the lotus without pain or numbness. Folks that start in the posture early, like about 7 years old, seem to be able to do this pretty well, but I didn't start sitting at all until eighteen, and it took me 30 years from there to get to the lotus. Still, I don't have much pain now, and most mornings I get up with a minimum of numbness in the upper foot. The clear feeling for the activity of sartorious, and for the sink, extend, and (consequent) activity without volition in piriformis seems to be a turning point for me, but it's not something I can take hold of: I can only reside waking up and falling asleep to it, as with all my activity. These words I will take back into practice.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Mark Foote

[Antares]

I have this book and was thinking if this neikung is any better than hatha yoga exercises or any others. Some people discern the exercises from the book solely and say that it is more physical than energy cultivation. But I think they forget to see the general conception of this nei gong and IMA in general.

The most important I think is the mindset and state of mind in which it is done. So it can be both physical and qi cultivation depending on the way it is done. IMO. And there are two aspects in this exercises indeed.

There are few very physical exercises but there are few qi cultivation as well and they were brought together. But I suppose these exercises will not be complete without correct practice of San Ti Shi. This is IMO crucial point in Xing Yi nei gong. It is something like tree stance but with more martial intention. And there is subtle qi mechanics in it for the "qi cultivation". I would say consciousness cultivation. I think those who have experience in IMA understand what I mean. Exercises for it self is preparatory warm up and open channels when done correctly with right set of mind.

 

 

I have video on this neikung too and there are few differences in execution than it is presented in the book. I suppose this set has some subtleties which can be understood training with experienced teacher otherwise it can be just physical exercises.

Well it really can prolong life and maintain health as flexibility does it for everyone. But if this is really internal cultivation system is up to the way it is done. Good stuff anyway and I started to do it myself.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Eugene