Chuang Tzu Chapter 2, Section A

[Marblehead]

2. The Adjustment of Controversies:

 

Section A

 

Nan-Guo Zi-Qi was seated, leaning forward on his stool. He was looking up to heaven and breathed gently, seeming to be in a trance, and to have lost all consciousness of any companion. (His disciple), Yan Cheng Zi-You, who was in attendance and standing before him, said, 'What is this? Can the body be made to become thus like a withered tree, and the mind to become like slaked lime? His appearance as he leans forward on the stool to-day is such as I never saw him have before in the same position.' Zi-Qi said, 'Yan, you do well to ask such a question, I had just now lost myself; but how should you understand it? You may have heard the notes of Man, but have not heard those of Earth; you may have heard the notes of Earth, but have not heard those of Heaven.'

 

Zi-You said, 'I venture to ask from you a description of all these.' The reply was, 'When the breath of the Great Mass (of nature) comes strongly, it is called Wind. Sometimes it does not come so; but when it does, then from a myriad apertures there issues its excited noise; have you not heard it in a prolonged gale? Take the projecting bluff of a mountain forest - in the great trees, a hundred spans round, the apertures and cavities are like the nostrils, or the mouth, or the ears; now square, now round like a cup or a mortar; here like a wet footprint, and there like a large puddle. (The sounds issuing from them are like) those of fretted water, of the arrowy whizz, of the stern command, of the inhaling of the breath, of the shout, of the gruff note, of the deep wail, of the sad and piping note. The first notes are slight, and those that follow deeper, but in harmony with them. Gentle winds produce a small response; violent winds a great one. When the fierce gusts have passed away, all the apertures are empty (and still) - have you not seen this in the bending and quivering of the branches and leaves?'

 

Zi-You said, 'The notes of Earth then are simply those which come from its myriad apertures; and the notes of Man may just be compared to those which (are brought from the tubes of) bamboo- allow me to ask about the notes of Heaven.' Zi-Qi replied, 'When (the wind) blows, (the sounds from) the myriad apertures are different, and (its cessation) makes them stop of themselves. Both of these things arise from (the wind and the apertures) themselves - should there be any other agency that excites them?'

[manitou]

Wow. These are some deep paragraphs.

 

The teacher is trying to convey the components of wu-wei to the student. In the first paragraph, he is demonstrating that the mind must become empty, focused, aware and yet invulnerable to the mental attack of outer stimulus. This is one component of the wu-wei mindset.

 

Once more, we're sitting in the room where all paths meet. This internalization of mother nature as the Source could have been written by a native American shaman, a Yogi occultist, an enlightened one or Sage of any variety. He analogizes the human body with the form of the earth; both with their apertures. He knows that the Expression, the Source of the energy is an internal phenomena that is emitted through the apertures of both the earth and the animals of the earth, including us. The earth speaks its Intent through the apertures of the earth; be it a gale whistling through a cave or the breakage of trees, its Intent is expressed nonetheless. As it is through us, the human animal. Our expressions emit through our mouths, our emotions emit through our words and actions.

 

That which is within us, trying to express, is the Tao. The same Tao in you is the same as the one in me. When the paragraphs talk about both the human and the world being vessels, this is no doubt what he means; that we are an expression for the Eternal Source.

 

But the real punch is in the last paragraph. why look outside of one's self or mother nature to look for the cause? I suspect he is saying here that there is no cause or god of any type on the outside of all this; that it is folly to try and look for something 'out there'.

[Marblehead]

But the real punch is in the last paragraph. why look outside of one's self or mother nature to look for the cause? I suspect he is saying here that there is no cause or god of any type on the outside of all this; that it is folly to try and look for something 'out there'.

 

I, personally, think that he is talking about 'cause and effect' here as well as Tzujan - the natural processes of Tao and therefore all things.

 

And yes, if everything in the universe follows natural processes, what need is there for any "supernatural" power or force to place praise or blame on?

 

But don't think that I am down-playing the importance of the processes of Tao and the universe. They are what makes everything go.

 

 

And BTW. This section is really the last section of Chuang Tzu's setting the stage. He will be speaking directly to us in the next section (Chapter 2, Section .

Edited October 23, 2011 by Marblehead

[rene]

Edited October 23, 2011 by rene

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I just noticed my last sentence. The program did that. it is supposed to read Section B.

[manitou]

 

But don't think that I am down-playing the importance of the processes of Tao and the universe. They are what makes everything go.

 

 

 

 

We're getting very close here. When you speak of 'the processes of the Tao making everything go' you are speaking of something dual, still. I see it as the Tao is the process within nature; the intelligence that makes your body know to breathe and digest even as you sleep. The oak within the acorn. That intelligence.

 

Paraphrasing the TTC, the Sage values drawing his sustenance from Nature and in following her pattern; the pattern of reversion, of birth to life to death to decay, of the many back to the one.

 

Cause and effect, as a concept, also denotes a period of time within the two. The state of Is-ness that the Sage likes to dwell in, rather removes the concept of yesterday, today, and tomorrow in favor of the Now. Cause and effect? Yes, if you put Time into the equation. Is-ness? Much is seen if you take time out of the equation and refrain from trying to define which is the cause and which is the effect. The cause is the effect of something else, and ad infinitum, back to that thing that we're always trying to describe and can't quite seem to, lol..

[konchog uma]

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales & Parables"

 

 

Sir Motley of Southurb sat leaning against his low table. He

looked up to heaven and exhaled slowly. Disembodied, he

seemed bereft of soul. Sir Wanderer of Countenance Complete,

who stood in attendance before him, asked, "How can we explain

this? Can the body really be made to become like withered wood?

Can the mind really be made to become like dead ashes? The one

who is leaning against the table now is not the one who was

formerly leaning against the table."

" Indeed," said Sir Motley, "your question is a good one.

Just now, I lost myself Can you understand this? You may have

heard the pipes of man, but not the pipes of earth. You may have

heard the pipes of earth, but not the pipes of heaven."

"I venture" said Sir Wanderer, "to ask their secret."

"The Great Clod," said Sir Motley, "emits a vital breath

called the wind. If it doesn't blow, nothing happens. Once it

starts to blow, however, myriad hollows begin to howl. Have you

not heard its moaning? The clefts and crevasses of the towering

mountains, the hollows and cavities of huge trees a hundred

spans around: they are like nostrils, like mouths, like ears, like

sockets, like cups, like mortars, or like the depressions that form

puddles and pools . The wind blowing over them makes the

sound of rushing water, whizzing arrows, shouting, breathing,

calling, crying, laughing, gnashing. The wind in front sings aiee

and the wind that follows sings wouu . A light breeze evokes a

small response ; a powerful gale brings forth a mighty chorus.

When the blast dies down, then all the hollows are silent. Have

you not seen the leaves that quiver with tingling reverberations?"

"The pipes of earth," said Sir Wanderer, "are none other

than all of the hollows you have described . The pipes of man are

bamboo tubes arrayed in series. I venture to ask what the pipes of

heaven are."

As for the pipes of heaven," said Sir Motley, "the myriad

sounds produced by the blowing of the wind are different, yet all

it does is elicit the natural propensities of the hollows them -

selves. What need is there for something else to stimulate them?"

[konchog uma]

in his explanation of the pipes of heaven, Zi-Qi seems to be implying that things vibrate of their own accord and that he "joined the source" in order to become in the state that Zi-You saw him, like a withered tree, in the beginning. He seems to me to say he is a pipe and heaven was playing him.

 

I think he seems to be saying that the pipes of heaven are everywhere and beyond sound as things do not need to be "played" by the wind in order to emit vibrations. Everything vibrates naturally?? I am not quite sure what he is getting at, so these are more questions than not.

 

Is he saying that the pipes of heaven are everywhere and beyond wind and orifice, division of player and playee? Is he saying that everything has its own essential vibration so what need is there for outside vibration to affect it? Maybe he is saying that everything is thus musical, hence "pipes of heaven".

 

I'm not sure I understand at all

[Marblehead]

We're getting very close here.

 

Okay. You wanna' play do you? Hehehe.

 

Actually, from this post there are two things you spoke to that will keep us from total agreement.

 

The first is your use of the word "intelligence". I ain't buying that. Nor do I or will I ever accept the concept of a "universal consciousness".

 

The other is your play with the concept of time. It is time/space. You can't have on without the other. Lacking either nothing would or could exist.

 

Other than that we aren't too far apart from each other's understandings.

[Marblehead]

in his explanation of the pipes of heaven, Zi-Qi seems to be implying that things vibrate of their own accord and that he "joined the source" in order to become in the state that Zi-You saw him, like a withered tree, in the beginning. He seems to me to say he is a pipe and heaven was playing him.

 

I think he seems to be saying that the pipes of heaven are everywhere and beyond sound as things do not need to be "played" by the wind in order to emit vibrations. Everything vibrates naturally?? I am not quite sure what he is getting at, so these are more questions than not.

 

Is he saying that the pipes of heaven are everywhere and beyond wind and orifice, division of player and playee? Is he saying that everything has its own essential vibration so what need is there for outside vibration to affect it? Maybe he is saying that everything is thus musical, hence "pipes of heaven".

 

I'm not sure I understand at all

 

Yes, I can see your misunderstanding. Think about the hollow of a tree. It constantly remains silent untill a wind comes along, send in the air just right and the hollow sings.

 

I like your vibration thoughts but let me suggest that everything does not naturally vibrate and sing of the wonders of nature all on their own. There must be something that causes the vibration to begin whether it be the wind or some words we just heard from someone else.

 

But everything has the capacity to vibrate within its own limitations. A rock cannot jump up and start dancing on its own. But if there is an earthquake it may well jump up and down or maybe even go flying through the air.

 

But yes, the "potential" is everywhere. But it is not 'acting' everywhere at the same level nor at all places simutaneously. Sometimes the wind blows and the tree hollow sings; other times there is no wind and there is silence.

[konchog uma]

Yes, I can see your misunderstanding. Think about the hollow of a tree. It constantly remains silent untill a wind comes along, send in the air just right and the hollow sings.

 

I like your vibration thoughts but let me suggest that everything does not naturally vibrate and sing of the wonders of nature all on their own. There must be something that causes the vibration to begin whether it be the wind or some words we just heard from someone else.

 

But everything has the capacity to vibrate within its own limitations. A rock cannot jump up and start dancing on its own. But if there is an earthquake it may well jump up and down or maybe even go flying through the air.

 

But yes, the "potential" is everywhere. But it is not 'acting' everywhere at the same level nor at all places simutaneously. Sometimes the wind blows and the tree hollow sings; other times there is no wind and there is silence.

 

Yes I think he is saying that the dao is the wind of the pipes of heaven. Its a little clearer now that I came back to it. Thanks for your thoughts, that helps me get it!

 

[XieJia]

Qi and its Vessels.

氣

Edited October 24, 2011 by XieJia

[rene]

Qi and its Vessels.

氣

 

There it is.

[Marblehead]

Yes I think he is saying that the dao is the wind of the pipes of heaven. Its a little clearer now that I came back to it. Thanks for your thoughts, that helps me get it!

 

 

Yes. And I have even gone further to suggest that it is Tzujan (the Natural processes) that is doing this but for here (this discussion) we must stick with the thought that Dao is causing these things to happen.

[Marblehead]

Qi and its Vessels.

氣

 

That looks like me with a steel pot over my head for protection.

[manitou]

Okay. You wanna' play do you? Hehehe.

 

Actually, from this post there are two things you spoke to that will keep us from total agreement.

 

The first is your use of the word "intelligence". I ain't buying that. Nor do I or will I ever accept the concept of a "universal consciousness".

 

The other is your play with the concept of time. It is time/space. You can't have on without the other. Lacking either nothing would or could exist.

 

Other than that we aren't too far apart from each other's understandings.

 

Okay. Round Two.

 

You ain't buying intelligence? Are you saying there is no intelligence inherent in the formation of our bodies? All cells at first in a fetus are undifferentiated. They are all the same type of cells, originally. But how they Align is what determines whether that cell is going to be a bone cell, a tissue cell, or an eyeball cell. I think this is absolutely incredible! There is a tremendous intelligence underlying all that we can't duplicate with our conscious thought. This is the Intelligence I speak of. It's also the same intelligence that tells the leaves when to drop, the planets how to circle. That's the only Intelligence I'm speaking of. I'm hoping you're not thinking that I think there's a great giant Brain floating around in the sky somewhere. No, the intelligence I speak of is within everything.

 

And time is an illusion. Einstein proved its relativity. For purposes of understanding the whole and seeing it in its entirety, I often 'remove' time to look at the total structure of a dynamic. Otherwise we're caught up in the illusion.

 

And I have a theory about universal consciousness. Babies born today are equipped with a certain level of 'intelligence' that's innate to them, and it differs from the level of consciousness that a baby would have been born with centuries ago. The Intelligence does it this way so that the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented every time a new baby is made.

 

But my theory is this: We only use maybe 10% of our brain? My guess is that maybe another 40% goes to maintenance of our bodily life, and my guess is that the remaining 50% is our connected-brain, the universal consciousness.

 

Sorry you see Theosophy as something less than useful.

Edited October 24, 2011 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Okay. Round Two.

 

I think we should stop as we are getting too far off topic.

 

Perhaps another thread in "General Discussions"?

 

Yes, time is relative but not an illusion.

 

You cannot prove any "intelligence" outside of a functioning body.

 

Back to the Chuang Tzu discussions.

[manitou]

Wow.

[Cosmo]

Wow.

 

It sure is an interesting approach to taoism, eh?

[lienshan]

But the real punch is in the last paragraph. why look outside of one's self or mother nature to look for the cause? I suspect he is saying here that there is no cause or god of any type on the outside of all this; that it is folly to try and look for something 'out there'.

The last paragraph exists in more versions

 

I read 'the flute of heaven' as singularis and therefore the last lines this way:

 

This blows tenthousand independent ones, but suppose they themselves stop?

Together they themselves silence the passionate one? They and who?

[ChiDragon]

籟: sound; music

人籟: the sound of human

地籟: the sound on earth, e.g. such as the sound of the wind

天籟: the natural sounds which are the sounds of human and earth.

[lienshan]

籟: sound; music

人籟: the sound of human

地籟: the sound on earth, e.g. such as the sound of the wind

天籟: the natural sounds which are the sounds of human and earth.

Professor Liu, the music school of Shanghai Normal University:

 

This flute, the name of which is pronounced the same as the word for "music" in Chinese,

used to be an important instrument in many ancient ceremonial rituals.

 

Liu noticed that the name of the ney is close to the Chinese word "lai," 籟

which is defined in "Shuo Wen Jie Zi" China's first dictionary,

which dates from the Eastern Han Dynasty (AD 25-220), as "a three-hole yue."

 

 

The music of Heaven or The flute of Heaven

Edited October 25, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

Professor Liu, the music school of Shanghai Normal University:

 

This flute, the name of which is pronounced the same as the word for "music" in Chinese,

used to be an important instrument in many ancient ceremonial rituals.

 

Liu noticed that the name of the ney is close to the Chinese word "lai," 籟

which is defined in "Shuo Wen Jie Zi" China's first dictionary,

which dates from the Eastern Han Dynasty (AD 25-220), as "a three-hole yue."

 

 

The music of Heaven or The flute of Heaven

 

Various sound is a better choice for the translation here. Please put your big hammer away. Sometimes tried to force things to fit the way you wanted, actually it doesn't work....

[lienshan]

Various sound is a better choice for the translation here.

Please put your big hammer away.

Don't worry ... I'm still tiptoeing ... this paragraph makes me think of the Guodian chapter 5:

 

Is the interval of Heaven and Earth similar to a sackpipe or an emptiness?

If not squeezed a void and if alternated an emission?

 

 

I'm not sure if there actually is the better choice for the translation here

[ChiDragon]

Don't worry ... I'm still tiptoeing ... this paragraph makes me think of the Guodian chapter 5:

 

Is the interval of Heaven and Earth similar to a sackpipe or an emptiness?

If not squeezed a void and if alternated an emission?

 

 

I'm not sure if there actually is the better choice for the translation here

 

We are in ZZ now not LZ.

 

1. A handyman can make a flute for himself.

2. How in the world is Earth going to make herself a flute...???

3. How the hell is Heaven going to make a flute for himself...??? :P