Chuang Tzu Chapter 2, Section A

[lienshan]

We are in ZZ now not LZ.

 

Wow.

 

 

 

1. A handyman can make a flute for himself.

2. How in the world is Earth going to make herself a flute...???

3. How the hell is Heaven going to make a flute for himself...??? :P

Did you miss the first chapter...???

You know, that about the Kun fish and the Peng bird

 

2. How in the world can a fish be so long and immeasurable broad...???

3. How the hell can a bird have so large (wind producing) wings...???

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Don't take the stories seriously Folks. Grasp the concepts - that's all that is needed. I really don't believe the Kun and Peng exist. Duh!

[dawei]

Seems Dogma again wants to control the free speech here. Lienshan has a point but lets suppress it for the sake of control... carry onward in the discussion.

[Patrick Brown]

Okay. Round Two.

 

You ain't buying intelligence? Are you saying there is no intelligence inherent in the formation of our bodies? All cells at first in a fetus are undifferentiated. They are all the same type of cells, originally. But how they Align is what determines whether that cell is going to be a bone cell, a tissue cell, or an eyeball cell. I think this is absolutely incredible! There is a tremendous intelligence underlying all that we can't duplicate with our conscious thought. This is the Intelligence I speak of. It's also the same intelligence that tells the leaves when to drop, the planets how to circle. That's the only Intelligence I'm speaking of. I'm hoping you're not thinking that I think there's a great giant Brain floating around in the sky somewhere. No, the intelligence I speak of is within everything.

 

And time is an illusion. Einstein proved its relativity. For purposes of understanding the whole and seeing it in its entirety, I often 'remove' time to look at the total structure of a dynamic. Otherwise we're caught up in the illusion.

 

And I have a theory about universal consciousness. Babies born today are equipped with a certain level of 'intelligence' that's innate to them, and it differs from the level of consciousness that a baby would have been born with centuries ago. The Intelligence does it this way so that the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented every time a new baby is made.

 

But my theory is this: We only use maybe 10% of our brain? My guess is that maybe another 40% goes to maintenance of our bodily life, and my guess is that the remaining 50% is our connected-brain, the universal consciousness.

 

Sorry you see Theosophy as something less than useful.

 

 

I won't get too involved here as I'm not that familiar with the inner chapters and I find much of it very confusing. But I must say that of course the Universe isn't intelligently created it's a process, a natural unfolding that follows a principle that Blavatsky called the "divine ideation". We can see it in sacred geometry and Phi.

 

When our universe fist came into being it only reached a certain point in it's expansion and then dissolved. Perhaps something grows with each appearance? Energy? Tao? I don't know what it is but at each appearance the universe grows but not because of intelligence but because it continues to follow the "divine ideation". Eventually the awakening consciousness progresses and appears within a vehicle that yields self-consciousness, the I am of the ego. It is at this point it can begin the process of self-cultivation or from a Taoist perspective follow the way.

 

Now if we throw the multiverse into the mix it begins to get really intriguing! Are we not experiencing our own universe within the universe and this universe is just an aspect of the multiverse?

 

OK I'll put it more simply. Everything exists and is happening all at once yet we only see what our vehicle will allow. I won't take this any further as it's just becomes pure speculation. But feel free to speculate if you wish.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. Don't take the stories seriously Folks. Grasp the concepts - that's all that is needed. I really don't believe the Kun and Peng exist. Duh!

 

Yeah...

That will separate the boys from the men.

[Marblehead]

Yeah...

That will separate the boys from the men.

 

But I hope it doesn't separate the women from the men.

[ChiDragon]

But I hope it doesn't separate the women from the men.

 

shhhhhhh.......

No way, Yin and Yang are united as one.

 

PS...

oops! I think I am in trouble now. I think it might be OK if I quote it from the YiJing.

Edited October 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Patrick Brown]

I'm depressed! I'm struggling and it's making think I'm an idiot. I shouldn't worry I just feel out of place. I'm sure I would understand what you're all on about but I'm just not that familiar with the inner chapters, sorry.

 

Perhaps if I read the threads in this section and just hang back for a few weeks until I get an idea of the form then it might all come into focus? For someone who it pretty good at this stuff, I mean I'm 44 and I've spent most of my life..., well you know the deal.

 

Think I'm just annoyed with myself as I haven't really exercised my philosophical muscles for a long time. Only myself to blame, I need to get my shit together.

 

But perhaps, well it's just where I'm at, lots of things going on at the mo.

 

 

Sorry!

[ChiDragon]

I'm depressed! I'm struggling and it's making think I'm an idiot. I shouldn't worry I just feel out of place. I'm sure I would understand what you're all on about but I'm just not that familiar with the inner chapters, sorry.

 

Perhaps if I read the threads in this section and just hang back for a few weeks until I get an idea of the form then it might all come into focus? For someone who it pretty good at this stuff, I mean I'm 44 and I've spent most of my life..., well you know the deal.

 

Think I'm just annoyed with myself as I haven't really exercised my philosophical muscles for a long time. Only myself to blame, I need to get my shit together.

 

But perhaps, well it's just where I'm at, lots of things going on at the mo.

 

 

Sorry!

 

Please do feel bad. ZZ's philosophy was teaching us to be "no self", "no merit", and "no ego".

Just free from all with no attachment and depend on nothing. If you can ignore all the external influence like insults as well as compliments, then you'd won half the battle already in learning ZZ's philosophy....

Edited October 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I'm depressed! I'm struggling and it's making think I'm an idiot. I shouldn't worry I just feel out of place. I'm sure I would understand what you're all on about but I'm just not that familiar with the inner chapters, sorry.

 

Isn't that the first phase of learning something new? Confusion, depression, denial?

 

Don't worry about it. Just stay here with us and you will see where Chuang Tzu is going. All the concepts in Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, Section A will be talked about again.

 

I think you are doing pretty good myself.

[Patrick Brown]

Please do feel bad. ZZ's philosophy was teaching us to be "no self", "no merit", and "no ego".

Just free from all with no attachment and depend on nothing. If you can ignore all the external influence like insults as well as compliments, then you'd won half the battle already in learning ZZ's philosophy....

 

No I'm fine just really no need to be here or even comment! I think that's what's beating me up. I thought I could dance to this tune but it caused me to forget the one tune. I'm alright I'll get back into the rhythm!

[Patrick Brown]

Isn't that the first phase of learning something new? Confusion, depression, denial?

 

Don't worry about it. Just stay here with us and you will see where Chuang Tzu is going. All the concepts in Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, Section A will be talked about again.

 

I think you are doing pretty good myself.

 

I'm sure I'll get back to this, just a lack of self confidence.

[Marblehead]

I'm sure I'll get back to this, just a lack of self confidence.

 

Of course, you may be of the same mindset as Rene is where she believes that Chuang Tzu just adds stuff that actually distracts from what Loa Tzu has said.

[dawei]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Not that it's radically different from other interpretations here, but the impression I'm getting, coming right from the previous chapters, is that Chuang Tzu is describing the "Perfect man, with no thought of self" and "Spirit man, with no thought of deed." They just act from their root. Their will is the wind and they let it play them.

Who controls their will? By being empty of thoughts of self they are open, and so they can be filled with heavenly music.

[rene]

dawei,

 

I used to think Dao was the how. Now I think maybe Dao is the why.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

In this reading it seems to behoove one to understand the common source. I don't have a problem with the idea of some sort of intelligence; nothing like a god or external source but an intrinsic part of the whole; just as Dao is really just an intrinsic part of the whole.

 

The common source is Tzujan - all things' naturalness. Lao Tzu already told us that.

[Marblehead]

Not that it's radically different from other interpretations here, but the impression I'm getting, coming right from the previous chapters, is that Chuang Tzu is describing the "Perfect man, with no thought of self" and "Spirit man, with no thought of deed." They just act from their root. Their will is the wind and they let it play them.

Who controls their will? By being empty of thoughts of self they are open, and so they can be filled with heavenly music.

 

Nice. Especially what I bolded.

[Marblehead]

dawei,

 

I used to think Dao was the how. Now I think maybe Dao is the why.

 

warm regards

 

Now Rene, you know Tao just is. It cannot be defined. But we can speak of the Way.

[dawei]

dawei,

 

I used to think Dao was the how. Now I think maybe Dao is the why.

 

warm regards

Truly good... This (how) is That (why) !

[Patrick Brown]

[Marblehead]

[ChiDragon]

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales & Parables"

 

Sir Motley of Southurb sat leaning against his low table. He

looked up to heaven and exhaled slowly. Disembodied, he

seemed bereft of soul. Sir Wanderer of Countenance Complete,

who stood in attendance before him, asked, "How can we explain

this? Can the body really be made to become like withered wood?

Can the mind really be made to become like dead ashes? The one

who is leaning against the table now is not the one who was

formerly leaning against the table."

" Indeed," said Sir Motley, "your question is a good one.

Just now, I lost myself Can you understand this? You may have

heard the pipes of man, but not the pipes of earth. You may have

heard the pipes of earth, but not the pipes of heaven."

 

Original text:

1.南郭子綦隱机而坐，仰天而噓，荅焉似喪其耦。顏成子游立侍乎前，曰：「何居乎？形固可使如槁木，而心固可使如死灰乎？今之隱机者，非昔之隱机者也。」子綦曰：「偃，不亦善乎而問之也！今者吾喪我，汝知之乎？汝聞人籟而未聞地籟，汝聞地籟而未聞天籟夫！」

 

Interpretation in Chinese:

1.譯文

南 郭子綦靠著幾案而坐，仰首向天緩緩地吐著氣，那離神去智的樣子真好像精神脫出了軀體。他的學生顏成子游陪站在跟前說道：“這是怎麼啦？形體誠然可以使它像 干枯的樹木，精神和思想難道也可以使它像死灰那樣嗎？你今天憑幾而坐，跟往昔憑幾而坐的情景大不一樣呢。”

 

子綦回答說：“偃，你這個問題不是問得很好嗎？ 今天我忘掉了自己，你知道嗎？你聽見過‘人籟’卻沒有聽見過‘地籟’，你即使聽見過‘地籟’卻沒有聽見過‘天籟’啊！”

 

Interpretation in English:

Nan-Guo Zi-Qi was sitting down by leaning against a table. He looked up the sky and exhaling slowing. It seems like his soul and conscience were really left his body. His disciple, Zi-You, stood beside him and said: "What is happening? Is it possible to let a physical body to be like a withered tree,; and also the spiritual soul and thinking can be like dead ashes? Today, you sit by the table seems like it is not the same scenery as before in the past."

 

Zi-Qi answered and said: "Indeed, wasn't the question that you asked is a good one? Today, I had forgotten myself, did you know that? If you have heard the human sound, then you may not have heard the Earth sound. Even then, you have heard the Earth sound, you may not have heard the Heaven sound, alas?"

 

Annotation:

If one have heard of one thing or another but might not hear them all. Hence, there is always a possibility out there that one may not have heard of to draw to a final conclusion.

Edited October 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Another note to be considered is that this is the first time Chuang Tzu touches on the concept of Wu Wei. Zi-Qi was, afterall, in that state when his disciple saw him.

[ChiDragon]

"I venture" said Sir Wanderer, "to ask their secret."

"The Great Clod," said Sir Motley, "emits a vital breath

called the wind. If it doesn't blow, nothing happens. Once it

starts to blow, however, myriad hollows begin to howl. Have you

not heard its moaning? The clefts and crevasses of the towering.....

 

【解釋】：

子綦接著說：「你可能聽過世人吹簫的聲音，你也許曾經聽過大地的簫聲，但是你卻不可能聽到天籟自然的聲音呀！」子游於是問子綦：「請問天、地、人三籟的聲音，其意義如何呢？」子綦說：「大地發出來的氣息，叫做風。這風不吹動則已，一旦狂風大作，則萬物全部怒號起來。你有沒有聽過颳風的呼嘯聲，整個山林都撼動起來，那百人抱不住的大樹，樹上佈滿著千奇百怪，形狀各異的孔竅，有的像鼻孔，有的像嘴巴，有的像耳朵，有的像方孔，有的像圓洞，有的像舂臼，有的像深池，有的像淺窪，這 些千孔萬竅，被大風吹動所發出的聲音，有的像急流沖激的聲音，有的像射箭發出的聲音，有的像叱責的聲音，有的像呼吸的聲音，有的像叫喊的聲音，有的像哭號 的聲音，有的像深谷發出的聲音，有的像咬牙切齒感嘆的聲音；前面的風吹過，後面的風相應又吹來。小風則相應的聲音小，大風則相的聲音大。大風吹過以後，所 有的孔竅都恢復平靜，空寂無聲，然而只見到草木還在搖曳擺動，沒有停止。」子游說：「地籟是萬物眾竅孔所發出的風聲，人籟是吹奏簫管所發出的聲音，請問天籟是甚麼？」子綦說：「所謂天籟，乃是風吹萬種竅孔，發出各種不同的聲音，使這些聲音之所以千差萬別，乃是由於各個的自然形態所致，但是主宰它們發出聲音的是誰呢？」

 

Zi-Qi said: "You have heard of the flute sound produced by human? You might have heard of the Earth's flute sound. Perhaps you might not have heard of the natural sound of Heaven."

 

Then, Zi-You asked Zi-Qi: "May I ask what is the difference between the sounds of Human, Earth and Heaven?"

 

Zi-Qi said: "The sound produced by the Earth is called the Wind. If this wind was not blowing, it is still. However, whenever it blows, it's a big hurricane; then all things will be roaring. Have you heard of the whistling sound of a hurricane? The whole forest become astounded. That gigantic tree which cannot even embraced by hundred persons, it has all shapes of orifice, some like a nose, an ear, a square hole, a round hole, a pounding hole, a deep pool, and a shallow pond. When these thousands of openings and gaps were blown by the wind, the sounds seem like the flowing of the raging water. Some seem like shooting arrows; some seem like a scolding sound; some seem like a breathing sound; some like a yelling sound; some like a crying sound; some seem like the sounds of a valley; some seem like the grinding teeth sound. After the wind blow in the front, then it was trailed by the wind in the rear. Thus the little winds produce the tiny sounds; and the gigantic wind produced the big sounds. After the big winds are gone, then all the orifices become silent, again, in still quietness. Hence, one can only see the grasses are still swinging non stop.

 

Zi-You said: "The sound of Earth was the sounds that produced by the orifices in all things. The human sound came from the tones of a man made flute. Then may I ask what was the sound of Heaven?"

 

Zi-Qi Said: "This so called the sound of Heaven, it was nothing but the various sounds produced by the wind blowing the difference size of orifices. The tremendous different in these sounds was due to each individual natural environment, but who has the predominance to produce all these sounds?"

Edited October 30, 2011 by ChiDragon