Finding difficulty understanding "Religious" Taoism.

[Nihro]

Hello,

 

I've been reading up and studying Taoism for a few months now and have been enjoying it greatly. Philosophical Taoism provides me with many aspects of my own life, which I had been aware of some time but had yet to find names for, and setting these concepts in place has done wonders for lifting some unnecessary weights off of my shoulders. Recently I've been trying to read and understand more portions of Alchemical Taoism along with versions of the more Religious side and I seem to have hit a barrier. I have a hard time buying into these aspects as, to me (and I realize very well that I am speaking out of ignorance at this point), they remind me of Christianity and the more intangible seemingly man-made myths about religious life.

 

I realize that this may be just my own bias towards function or simplicity, but focusing on the idea of Gods and Immortality and evil spirits just seems like a bit of a distraction from reality. I have been able to incorporate, although roughly, some of the internal aspects regarding my own meditation but sometimes I feel as if I'm living more in my imagination and getting away from my true core.

 

The teachings of philosophical Taoism along with some readings on Zen Buddhism have gone a long way towards getting rid of some neurotic tendencies and the shift has been very noticeable. I feel much more at peace lately in all regards, and socially I have never been better. As I have said I'm new to these matters and realize that much of what I have written may just be my own ignorance. Could anybody help me out with a book or two to get me started or some guidance as I continue my study. Assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Nihro

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Welcome to the club.

 

I had the same problem many years ago. I got to the point of feeling comfortable with Taoist Philosophy and decided to look into Religious and Alchemic Taoism. Big mistake for me. I immediately stopped and returned to and stayed with Philosophical Taoism.

 

But sure, depends on one's personal needs. Either or both of the others may be the right thing for some.

[Protector]

There's some debate going on about some things like immortality stories gods and things being real or not. If they are real, why are they not seem as often as they should and why the secrecy. Some people even make up their own ideas about things but I think they are just excuses to be lazy. But there is always a lesson from a story, real or not.

[Nihro]

There's some debate going on about some things like immortality stories gods and things being real or not. If they are real, why are they not seem as often as they should and why the secrecy. Some people even make up their own ideas about things but I think they are just excuses to be lazy. But there is always a lesson from a story, real or not.

 

I understand that there's a lesson to the material regardless and respect the material for what I think it might convey. I suppose I'm just considering dropping this area of Taoism for now and going back into the Philosophical side which I've come to live my life by. It just seems strange to me that there would be two aspects of something such as Taoism which seem so greatly distanced from each other. I understand that this statement may seem strange considering the topic we are discussing uses the Yin-Yang as its representation and that the mere reflection itself comes entirely from my own Western ideology but I'm just trying to understand. I would rather have some developed understanding of this subject matter before I make up my mind further I suppose.

[Protector]

You can say religious side came from trying to understand philosophical formless Taoism by giving it form. Kinda kills the whole point, doesn't it?

[Nihro]

You can say religious side came from trying to understand philosophical formless Taoism by giving it form. Kinda kills the whole point, doesn't it?

 

That's sort of what I felt like meditating while thinking about the principals of meditating. Felt like going away from the point which is just ... whatever the point is. I guess I'll just go back to what I was doing before, you can't force understanding anyway.

[konchog uma]

I think "Chronicles of Tao" by Deng-Ming Dao is a neat story about religious daoism since you ask for book recommendations.

 

its the story of daoist master Kwan Saihung, and its so off the wall and out there that some people don't believe it could be real and they think mr Dao is making the whole thing up. I have heard stories of "proof" that Kwan Saihung is a fraud and a con, and i have heard that other daoist masters who have met him say he is definitely one of the few legit priestly type daoists out there. Its like Carlos Casteneda tho, it pushes the boundaries of what the reader is willing to believe, and I don't care how openminded you are.

 

I say all that because the story is SO hard to believe that you'll see why before you're 2 chapters into it.

 

So if you want to get a good idea of what religious daoism was like before Mao and the cultural revolution destroyed so much, that is a great book. Full of priests and monks and immortals and aspirants and magic and mischief.

 

All in all, I think the book is worth reading just to read it, you needn't believe or disbelieve (back to the commentary about there being a lesson therein regardless).

[Kali Yuga]

Well, if you have an aversion to Religious things or things similar to it which speak of things of a spiritual nature (Heaven, Immortals, Deities etc.) then of course Religious Taoism will show you things you don't like.

 

However, if you are practicing alchemy and trying to practice their so-called methods of "immortality", then it shouldn't be that one is trying to shun it, but at least to be open to the experience. Who knows if these things are true or not true? Why assume that there is no celestial beings or men who have become immortal right away? I think it is the assumption that is the sin and not the tradition itself.

 

John Chang is a master of alchemy, and if even a small portion of his videos were true, would that not push the limit of our understanding? I wish I could use Wang Liping properly as an example here to, but unfortunately he has not subjected himself to scrutiny to other people, but many people here attest to that he's the real deal as well. If you've done any amount of proper alchemy you would have experienced some things that by all means modern science would be baffled to explain.

 

Science is limited because it is a very young discipline and it does not hold the wisdom that is inherent in older traditions. The sin here is that one assumes that all that can be seen with one's eyes are the whole of existence. There is so much more that we can not see that is going around than what we can see.

 

I think that the point here is that it is alchemy that will separate the real stuff from the chaff. If you aren't actively trying to cultivate the different energies that exist inside of you, then it may be that you'll never experience things which you can't explain, and which is why it will be premature to make an assumption about these things. Although there is much dogma within religious Taoism there are things which are very true - but to only those who have practiced the alchemical methods. It is in achieving alchemy where you will find the answers to the questions you're looking for. Only those who have crossed the river will be able to tell you of the promised land.

[Nihro]

Thanks for the book recommendation anamatva.

 

Regarding your post though Kali, I don't have any problem at all regarding religious teaching I just have a hard time accepting and internalizing things which can't be proven. I do find it interesting to have conversations with people of a religious nature and am not an atheist I'm just firmly in the camp of "I don't know, knowing is largely impossible, and I'll just be the best person I can until the day which I find out." I think more than likely all "religions" are probably partially right and partially wrong I just can't get into the idea that there is only one way. I enjoy philosophical Taoism because it is how I naturally think and I believe the principals and teachings contained within it are of the utmost relevance towards living a good and harmonious life for yourself and those who surround you.

 

I have and will always continue to experience things which I cannot explain. However, I don't think these things are capable for men to entirely understand at the end of the day and am somewhat of the opinion that attempting to explain them in mortal terms takes away from the true nature which exists in their inherent vagueness. I think that more than likely there are things in this world which will never be explained and attempting to do so draws the energy away from the person who attempts it. I've never heard of John Chang before though I'll check him out before replying further.

 

Scratch that actually I remember hearing about him around 2005 at my old Karate Dojo.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Nihro

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. Welcome to the club.

 

I had the same problem many years ago. I got to the point of feeling comfortable with Taoist Philosophy and decided to look into Religious and Alchemic Taoism. Big mistake for me. I immediately stopped and returned to and stayed with Philosophical Taoism.

 

But sure, depends on one's personal needs. Either or both of the others may be the right thing for some.

 

Stay with this wise man and follow his advice. He may became a Sage someday if he is not too practical.....

 

Stay away from the Taoist religion if you want to study Taoist philosophy.

 

Alchemic Taoism is very confusing. It might lead one to believe that something was produced with fire in an oven but it was not....

[Nihro]

Stay with this wise man and follow his advice. He may became a Sage someday if he is not too practical.....

 

Stay away from the Taoist religion if you want to study Taoist philosophy.

 

Alchemic Taoism is very confusing. It might lead one to believe that something was produced with fire in an oven but it was not....

 

Thanks for the tip, I'm somewhat new to the forums and don't really hop on too often. Usually I just do my own thing anyway think I'll just stick with the philosophical school for now. Maybe one day life will bring me back towards the religious forms maybe not, either way the Tao is pretty rad in my book.

[deci belle]

[Nihro]

[Patrick Brown]

[baiqi]

Although I am not a "religious" taoist, I beg to differ: there are some things to save in religious toism (Dao Jiao)

 

More precisely, I have met some Daoshi who are the very embodiment of the philosophy, and I thought "oh, their stuff does work".

That does not mean YOU should become a priest. Especially if you don't feel confortable. The thing is, I was living in China, so I had occasion to talk to Taoists. Some were just normal guys, others frauds, and a few were what I expected: people living in the flow of the Tao. (No, I won't explain more! )

 

But you have to understand that Daojiao, contrary to Daojia (philosophy), is very "cultural": the Daode Jing is very universal. Daojiao is very Chinese. It is not bad, but very few westerners can enter this easily. Buddhism tries to be more universal, in comparison. But the Taoist don't give a damn about preaching.

 

I also first thought "it's not daoism": but it is, in it's own way.

The Daoshi know the DDJ very well, and some really apply it in their lives.

It also depends on which branch we talk about. For example, I believe that the Quanzhen branch is closer to Daojia than the Tianshi, who are too much into exorcisms, and all the like. (I have met some nice Tianshi anyway, just not my stuff)

 

I understand your fear of religion, I hated it for a while because of what religious organisations turned it into. But again there are (a few)good things in christianity.

Also, even if the Daojiao added lots of stuff in the philosophy, even if politics tried to influence it, it never was as bad as chrisitanity. Never heard of a Taoist inquisition for example.(Whereas you can find it in Tibetan Buddhism for example)

 

Let's say, for a religion it's not that bad.

 

But as for you, you don't need to artificially try to be a Daoshi. You may just try to follow your path, and respect other people's beliefs, even if they seem weird to you.

 

In the end, it's all a matter of Yuan Fen (destiny)

[Patrick Brown]

Although I am not a "religious" taoist, I beg to differ: there are some things to save in religious toism (Dao Jiao)

 

More precisely, I have met some Daoshi who are the very embodiment of the philosophy, and I thought "oh, their stuff does work".

That does not mean YOU should become a priest. Especially if you don't feel confortable. The thing is, I was living in China, so I had occasion to talk to Taoists. Some were just normal guys, others frauds, and a few were what I expected: people living in the flow of the Tao. (No, I won't explain more! )

 

But you have to understand that Daojiao, contrary to Daojia (philosophy), is very "cultural": the Daode Jing is very universal. Daojiao is very Chinese. It is not bad, but very few westerners can enter this easily. Buddhism tries to be more universal, in comparison. But the Taoist don't give a damn about preaching.

 

I also first thought "it's not daoism": but it is, in it's own way.

The Daoshi know the DDJ very well, and some really apply it in their lives.

It also depends on which branch we talk about. For example, I believe that the Quanzhen branch is closer to Daojia than the Tianshi, who are too much into exorcisms, and all the like. (I have met some nice Tianshi anyway, just not my stuff)

 

I understand your fear of religion, I hated it for a while because of what religious organisations turned it into. But again there are (a few)good things in christianity.

Also, even if the Daojiao added lots of stuff in the philosophy, even if politics tried to influence it, it never was as bad as chrisitanity. Never heard of a Taoist inquisition for example.(Whereas you can find it in Tibetan Buddhism for example)

 

Let's say, for a religion it's not that bad.

 

But as for you, you don't need to artificially try to be a Daoshi. You may just try to follow your path, and respect other people's beliefs, even if they seem weird to you.

 

In the end, it's all a matter of Yuan Fen (destiny)

 

Very educational. Thanks for the clarity.

[manitou]

Although there is much dogma within religious Taoism there are things which are very true - but to only those who have practiced the alchemical methods. It is in achieving alchemy where you will find the answers to the questions you're looking for. Only those who have crossed the river will be able to tell you of the promised land.

 

 

And I think this inner alchemy, necessary in all great traditions that seems to drive us from within, is the very fusion which ultimately changes our perspective forever. It is all-inclusive and there for everyone; and yet not all hear the call. It doesn't matter what religious box our head is in, if any. It's apples and oranges, as Herman would say.

[Jetsun]

Not that I know that much about it but at the moment the guy who explains Taoist alchemy the best for me is Liu I-Ming, he is worth looking up if you haven't already. He provides his own commentary on many classic texts demystifying much of it also he has his own book "Awakening to the Tao" which is good.

[Nihro]

Not that I know that much about it but at the moment the guy who explains Taoist alchemy the best for me is Liu I-Ming, he is worth looking up if you haven't already. He provides his own commentary on many classic texts demystifying much of it also he has his own book "Awakening to the Tao" which is good.

 

Thanks Jetsun I'll check him out when I get the chance.

[RiverSnake]

Hmm...IMO the most important line in the whole Tao Te Ching is the first one:

 

"The Tao that can be known is not the Tao."

 

Religions can be known, written, and pinned down. The only reason i consider myself a Daoist is because Daoism at its core does not require you to put your flag in the sand or to become an "organized sport" or buy into certain beliefs...IMO the Dao expresses itself in infinite forms across all cultures...each has a piece but the whole can never be contrived.

 

However, the overwhelming majority of people are uncomfortable with the unknown, the uncertain, that which cannot be known or written down...thus religious Taoism comes into play so that people have something tangible..."a home" to wrap their own limitations around.

 

I am really enjoy this thread. Some real good insights.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited October 25, 2011 by OldGreen

[deci belle]

There is a very good book first published in 1982 called "The Taoist Body" by Kristofer Schipper. Translated from the original French in 1993, it gives concise insights into current and historical aspects of "church" Taoism (Schipper is an ordained Taoist priest). But that is a small part of its coverage.

 

There are some brilliant insights, and is much more than a scholastic overview by an "insider", so don't think this is just a book about a religion— this the shit! I'm not interested in church taoism in the least, and had no trouble ripping out and tossing the first six chapters of the book (paperback~ heehee). Chapters seven through ten are fantastic. There are over fifty pages of notes and index, too!

 

I recommend it highly. ISBN 0-520-08224-9

 

I'll make one more book recommendation~ another French work titled "Seduction" by Jean Baudrillard, 1979. English edition 1990. It does get philosophical, in that French way, but there are some real nuggets, like:

"…Seduction, by contrast, is immortal. The seductress, like the hysteric, wants to be immortal and live in an eternal present…", "But here she survives because outside psychology, meaning or desire…"

 

I don't know… but if you are a woman, or especially if you love one~ (and have the balls to tell Sartre to go to his special place!! haha!! You might enjoy it as I do.❤

 

ed note: faux pas~ didn't change anything!

Edited October 25, 2011 by deci belle

[Nihro]

[deci belle]

[deci belle]

Kali Yuga, on 23 October 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

Although there is much dogma within religious Taoism there are things which are very true - but to only those who have practiced the alchemical methods. It is in achieving alchemy where you will find the answers to the questions you're looking for. Only those who have crossed the river will be able to tell you of the promised land.

 

 

And I think this inner alchemy, necessary in all great traditions that seems to drive us from within, is the very fusion which ultimately changes our perspective forever. It is all-inclusive and there for everyone; and yet not all hear the call. It doesn't matter what religious box our head is in, if any. It's apples and oranges, as Herman would say.

 

❤!!

[Marblehead]

However, the overwhelming majority of people are uncomfortable with the unknown, the uncertain, that which cannot be known or written down...thus religious Taoism comes into play so that people have something tangible..."a home" to wrap their own limitations around.

 

I am really enjoy this thread. Some real good insights.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

 

And that is a wonderful understanding!