zanshin Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) oops I double posted Edited October 24, 2011 by zanshin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TzuJanLi Posted October 24, 2011 Greetings.. What you have influence and not influence over seems to exist within the spectrum of lie/truth. I think its very possible that you might live beyond truth/lie, but putting that into words is really hard or not possible. I think we can only hint that such a path exists. Cool.. i don't understand the meaning of your post, but it sounds cool.. now, i'm going back to paying attention.. Be well.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) Other people's truth is not the same as yours. I try to understand why rather than being angry or upset about that, then maybe I might try to convince them otherwise or more often realize their truth is right for them. Why do you seem to think a dichotomy between lie or fake and truth or real, but in the applications we talked about on this thread it is more of continuum. Sometimes people get tired of fear and pain and see death as friend coming, they give it up to a higher power- by which I mean death and going peacefully into the unknown, not necessarily anything supernatural. If you accept truth for lie, death just becomes birth. There will be no purpose for suicide or any intent whatsoever. What I'm talking about is suicide of ego or something. Well, its certainly not real physical suicide, depending on your point of view. To me, the spiritual is equally physical to this realm. So I guess you could call it suicide but then you have named it again. Nothing good comes from naming the process. You just have to guide people trough this journey and hint at the path or point them in the right direction. The most important of all is to confuse the mind and distract it. As if you are killing animal. The ego may not see the knife. If it does, you will have death written all over you. Edited October 24, 2011 by Everything Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted October 24, 2011 Greetings.. Cool.. i don't understand the meaning of your post, but it sounds cool.. now, i'm going back to paying attention.. Be well.. Thank you, I equally do not have direct acces to your values Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) 1. A butterfly once was a caterpillar. 2. A butterfly was a caterpillar. 3. A butterfly is a caterpillar. 4. A caterpillar will be a butterfly. 5. A caterpillar is a butterfly. To humans, that was what they had learned as the process of Nature. Lines 3 and 4 maybe not be accepted as the truth. To Tao, regardless in space or time, all the above are the truth due to the whole natural process of Tao. Edited October 24, 2011 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zanshin Posted October 24, 2011 If you accept truth for lie, death just becomes birth. There will be no purpose for suicide or any intent whatsoever. What I'm talking about is suicide of ego or something. Well, its certainly not real physical suicide, depending on your point of view. To me, the spiritual is equally physical to this realm. So I guess you could call it suicide but then you have named it again. Nothing good comes from naming the process. You just have to guide people trough this journey and hint at the path or point them in the right direction. The most important of all is to confuse the mind and distract it. As if you are killing animal. The ego may not see the knife. If it does, you will have death written all over you. Oh, I wasn't even thinking about suicide, more about people who are elderly and terminally ill and feel acceptance having come through pain and fear. Living but ready to die when it comes, in a liminal state. What is liminal state of lies and truth? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted October 24, 2011 Oh, I wasn't even thinking about suicide, more about people who are elderly and terminally ill and feel acceptance having come through pain and fear. Living but ready to die when it comes, in a liminal state. What is liminal state of lies and truth? I think this entire universe is the liminal state of lies and truth. The source of this liminal state of lie and truth is Tao? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) 1. A butterfly once was a caterpillar. 2. A butterfly was a caterpillar. 3. A butterfly is a caterpillar. 4. A caterpillar will be a butterfly. 5. A caterpillar is a butterfly. To humans, that was what they had learned as the process of Nature. Lines 3 and 4 maybe not be accepted as the truth. To Tao, regardless in space or time, all the above are the truth due to the whole natural process of Tao. Well, making lies a burden and accepting all lies as truth works as well It seems to have a diffrent quality to it though Thats real interesting. Edited October 24, 2011 by Everything Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zanshin Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) I concur, so labelling truth and lies seems like trying to track raindrops in the ocean. Which one was it again? Edited October 24, 2011 by zanshin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted October 24, 2011 What is liminal state of lies and truth? Dreams and farts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) Hey, I'm confused again. If saying that all lies are truth, brings you closer to everything, it feels like love. The feminine form, right? If saying that all truth are lies, brings you closer to nothing, it feels like wisdom. The masculine form, right? The masculine is the source of the feminine, right? The source of the big bang is nothing. The big bang itself is the manifestation of nothing. If Tao is the source, then it would be masculine and nothing. Could it be that Tao is masculine or do you guys say that the Way is masculine. The Way = Tao right? Edited October 24, 2011 by Everything Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted October 24, 2011 Tao is not the source, Tao is not the truth, Tao is not masculine At best, it's the audience Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) At best, it's the audience And at the least, it's just an idea. ~~~ Lies and truths - fading away, waiting to die The dream you thought was truth and the fart that made you cry Edit: p.s. Sinfest.. _/\_ re Bushido quote (-: Edited October 24, 2011 by rene Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) Hello Everything, I think the answer you're looking for is that there is no truth and that there are no lies, but that would be a simplistic explanation of what you're trying to come to terms with. The fact of the matter is that there are truths and lies, they are simply a construct of the mind and hence the person you view yourself to be. Now so long as you see yourself in this context, as a being that exists within a shell of flesh, then you will most likely also be stuck with the idea that there are truths and lies. However, if you can see past the illusion of self, understand that you are not simply the being within a body, but the whole of the body, that you are not simply a person sitting in your home, but you are the entirety of your home (an the universe), then what you will find irrevocably is that the truth does not exist on a universal level, rather what exists are actions. There is no right or wrong, high or low, or even truth or lie, but rather there are things that interact with other things, nothing more. Even then, if you go deeper you will see that even these actions are transient in nature, that in fact all things corporeal have a limited time to remain in this universe. If even the rocks and earth will dissolve into nothing, then how can we even begin to believe that there is any kind of lasting truth? Aaron Edited October 24, 2011 by Twinner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted October 24, 2011 Well, it seems like less then an audience at best, being ever more subtle then our universe and reality. It seems more then an idea at the least, being the source of all information, rules and laws that make up this reality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted October 24, 2011 I'm reminded of a part of Glenn Morris's book where he brings a person through the Greater Kan & Li. The woman sees everyone around her as robotic, slow, lifeless. By taking a big step in enlightenment the people around her seem duller. He states its not an unusual occurrence. The upshot was, in a few weeks it calmed down and people were just people again. While TRUTH is important to contemplate at times. In REALITY we chop wood, carry water. There is no truth is our daily action, just levels of awareness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) Hello Everything, I think the answer you're looking for is that there is no truth and that there are no lies, but that would be a simplistic explanation of what you're trying to come to terms with. The fact of the matter is that there are truths and lies, they are simply a construct of the mind and hence the person you view yourself to be. Now so long as you see yourself in this context, as a being that exists within a shell of flesh, then you will most likely also be stuck with the idea that there are truths and lies. However, if you can see past the illusion of self, understand that you are not simply the being within a body, but the whole of the body, that you are not simply a person sitting in your home, but you are the entirety of your home (an the universe), then what you will find irrevocably is that the truth does not exist on a universal level, rather what exists are actions. There is no right or wrong, high or low, or even truth or lie, but rather there are things that interact with other things, nothing more. Even then, if you go deeper you will see that even these actions are transient in nature, that in fact all things corporeal have a limited time to remain in this universe. If even the rocks and earth will dissolve into nothing, then how can we even begin to believe that there is any kind of lasting truth? Aaron Thanks, that was wonderful. What is the purpose of nothing? I mean what you say feels great. Being everything. I can anticipate the world and I feel loved and such. Its great indeed. We need equal Tao and World? Tao is not better, higher or lower then Reality right? Edited October 24, 2011 by Everything Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted October 24, 2011 You know what makes me smile? Knowing that in the distant future, someone will read my posts in succession and understand where I'm going with this. This thread lasted long enough, time for my tea and pain break Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiverSnake Posted October 24, 2011 Truth a burden? If there is anything in my life be it Thoughts, Emotions, Objects, or People...and they are not helping me live a Blissful and more enlightened life...then i drop them like a bad habit. The only burden is our attachments. Truth IME is actually quite blissful. -My 2 cents, Peace Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick Brown Posted October 24, 2011 Two Truths Doctrine Vajrayana subscribes to the two truths doctrine of conventional and ultimate truths, which is present in all Buddhist tenet systems.[25][26] The two truths doctrine is a central concept in the Vajrayana path of practice and is the philosophical basis for its methods. The two truths identifies conventional a.k.a. relative, and absolute a.k.a. nirvana. Conventional truth is the truth of consensus reality, common-sense notions of what does and does not exist. Ultimate truth is reality as viewed by an awakened, or enlightened mind. In the Sutrayana practice, a path of Mahayana, the "path of the cause" is taken, whereby a practitioner starts with his or her potential Buddha-nature and nurtures it to produce the fruit ofBuddhahood. In the Vajrayana the "path of the fruit" is taken whereby the practitioner takes his or her innate Buddha-nature as the means of practice. The premise is that since we innately have an enlightened mind, practicing seeing the world in terms of ultimate truth can help us to attain our full Buddha-nature.[27] Experiencing ultimate truth is said to be the purpose of all the various tantric techniques practiced in the Vajrayana. Apart from the advanced meditation practices such as Mahamudraand Dzogchen, which aim to experience the empty nature of the enlightened mind that can see ultimate truth, all practices are aimed in some way at purifying the impure perception of the practitioner to allow ultimate truth to be seen. These may be ngondro, or preliminary practices, or the more advanced techniques of the tantric sadhana. Source: http://en.wikipedia....Truths_Doctrine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted October 24, 2011 I'm having a hard time understanding what you're looking for, Everything, because the word Truth can have so many different meanings and implications. You must first clarify in what capacity you are using it. I wonder if all of the discussion relates to the same definition and usage of the word, Truth. When it comes to questions and answers, I subscribe to the idea that the question is what is important. The question is alive, it stimulates investigation, whereas the answer is dead. The answer is someone else's conclusion generally. Once we have an answer, we replace the question with a belief or an image and move on. All opportunity for further exploration of that particular question are abandoned. And all answers are relative. So it's OK to just stay with the question and not be too concerned with an answer. It feels insecure and unsteady but security is an illusion. The greatest security is to accept that it is an illusion. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted October 24, 2011 Excellent post Steve:-) I read elsewhere (can't recall where) that other peoples have completely different words for different "truths". One of the words refers to what you have personally experienced directly. The other one refers to what someone else has experienced directly and then conveyed to you. The latter being how most children learn about the world (and the words). I personally find that people get caught up too much in the "but it's true" TV reporting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted October 24, 2011 http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/allegory.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
