Chuang Tzu Chapter 2, Section B

[Marblehead]

Section B

 

Great knowledge is wide and comprehensive; small knowledge is partial and restricted. Great speech is exact and complete; small speech is (merely) so much talk. When we sleep, the soul communicates with (what is external to us); when we awake, the body is set free. Our intercourse with others then leads to various activity, and daily there is the striving of mind with mind. There are hesitancies; deep difficulties; reservations; small apprehensions causing restless distress, and great apprehensions producing endless fears. Where their utterances are like arrows from a bow, we have those who feel it their charge to pronounce what is right and what is wrong; where they are given out like the conditions of a covenant, we have those who maintain their views, determined to overcome. (The weakness of their arguments), like the decay (of things) in autumn and winter, shows the failing (of the minds of some) from day to day; or it is like their water which, once voided, cannot be gathered up again. Then their ideas seem as if fast bound with cords, showing that the mind is become like an old and dry moat, and that it is nigh to death, and cannot be restored to vigour and brightness. Joy and anger, sadness and pleasure, anticipation and regret, fickleness and fixedness, vehemence and indolence, eagerness and tardiness;-- (all these moods), like music from an empty tube, or mushrooms from the warm moisture, day and night succeed to one another and come before us, and we do not know whence they sprout. Let us stop! Let us stop! Can we expect to find out suddenly how they are produced?

 

If there were not (the views of) another, I should not have mine; if there were not I (with my views), his would be uncalled for:-- this is nearly a true statement of the case, but we do not know what it is that makes it be so. It might seem as if there would be a true Governor concerned in it, but we do not find any trace (of his presence and acting). That such an One could act so I believe; but we do not see His form. He has affections, but He has no form. Given the body, with its hundred parts, its nine openings, and its six viscera, all complete in their places, which do I love the most? Do you love them all equally? or do you love some more than others? Is it not the case that they all perform the part of your servants and waiting women? All of them being such, are they not incompetent to rule one another? or do they take it in turns to be now ruler and now servants? There must be a true Ruler (among them) whether by searching you can find out His character or not, there is neither advantage nor hurt, so far as the truth of His operation is concerned. When once we have received the bodily form complete, its parts do not fail to perform their functions till the end comes. In conflict with things or in harmony with them, they pursue their course to the end, with the speed of a galloping horse which cannot be stopped - is it not sad? To be constantly toiling all one's lifetime, without seeing the fruit of one's labour, and to be weary and worn out with his labour, without knowing where he is going to - is it not a deplorable case? Men may say, 'But it is not death;' yet of what advantage is this? When the body is decomposed, the mind will be the same along with it - must not the case be pronounced very deplorable? Is the life of man indeed enveloped in such darkness? Is it I alone to whom it appears so? And does it not appear to be so to other men?

[XieJia]

Boss,

You do enjoy the high speed don't you?

 

It must be nearly Christmas for you.

 

Seasons of the heart and the doll that comes with it.

 

Only where is the heart?

 

[konchog uma]

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables"

 

Great knowledge is expansive

Small knowledge is cramped.

Great speech blazes brilliantly

Small speech is mere garrulousness.

 

When people sleep, their souls are confused; when they awake,

their bodies feel all out of joint.

 

Their contacts turn into conflicts,

Each day involves them in mental strife .

They become indecisive, dissembling, secretive.

Small fears disturb them;

Great fears incapacitate them.

 

Some there are who express themselves as swiftly as the release of a

crossbow mechanism, which is to say that they arbitrate right and

wrong. Others hold fast as though to a sworn covenant, which is

to say they are waiting for victory. Some there are whose decline is

like autumn or winter, which describes their dissolution day by

day. Others are so immersed in activity that they cannot be

revitalized. Some become so weary that they are as though sealed

up in an envelope, which describes their senility. Their minds are

so near to death that they cannot be rejuvenated.

Pleasure and anger; sorrow and joy; worry and regret; vac-

illation and trepidation; diffidence and abandon; openness and

affectedness. These are all like musical sounds from empty tubes,

like fungi produced from mere vapors. Day and night they

alternate within us, but no one knows whence they arise.

 

Enough! Enough! The instant one grasps this, one understands

whence they arise!

 

 

 

"If there were no `other,' there would be no 'I'. If there were no 'I,'

there would be nothing to apprehend the `other: " This is near

the mark, but I do not know what causes it to be so . It seems as

though there is a True Ruler, but there is no particular evidenc \e

for Her. We may have faith in Her ability to function, but

cannot see Her form. She has attributes but is without form.

 

The hundred bones, the nine orifices, and the six viscera are

all complete within my body. With which am I most closely

identified? Do you favor all of them equally? Or are there those

to which you are partial? Assuming that you treat them equally,

do you take them all to be your servants? If so, are your servants

incapable of controlling each other? Or do they take turns being

lord and subject among themselves? If not, do they have a True

Lord over them all? Whether or not we succeed in specifying His

attributes has neither positive nor negative effect upon the truth

of the Lord.

Once we have received our complete physical form, we

remain conscious of it while we await extinction . In our strife

and friction with other things, we gallop forward on our course

unable to stop. Is this not sad? We toil our whole life without

seeing any results . We deplete ourselves with wearisome labor,

but don't know what it all adds up to. Isn't this lamentable?

There are those who say that at least we are not dead, but what's

the good of it? Our physical form decays and with it the mind

likewise . May we not say that this is the most lamentable of all?

Is human life really so deluded as this? Am I the only one who is

so deluded? Are there some individuals who are not deluded ?

[Marblehead]

That reads much smoother than the Legge translation.

 

Maybe we will get some comments to the section now. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

Boss,

You do enjoy the high speed don't you?

 

It must be nearly Christmas for you.

 

Seasons of the heart and the doll that comes with it.

 

Only where is the heart?

 

 

Hehehe. Speed is relative.

 

Christmas for me? I'm an Atheist, remember?

 

My heart? I think it froze and went to Hell to thaw out.

[XieJia]

Hehehe. Speed is relative.

 

Christmas for me? I'm an Atheist, remember?

 

My heart? I think it froze and went to Hell to thaw out.

 

Hahaha, it was actually my way of summarizing the section

And your way of answering it.

Edited October 25, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

Hahaha, it was actually my way of summarizing the section

And your way of answering it.

 

Hehehe. Well, I'm glad we both are still being who we are.

[konchog uma]

That reads much smoother than the Legge translation.

 

Maybe we will get some comments to the section now. Hehehe.

 

yeah theres a big difference!

 

like i said, i Really like Victor Mair. His Tao Te Ching is great too!

[konchog uma]

I have heard that the inner chapters are all that is reliably attributable to Chuang Tzu himself. The rest are from students and later scholars in his lineage of teaching. So the inner chapters are really what was called here "chapter 1".

 

I point it out because i notice a distinct difference in the style of writing between chap 1 and chap 2

 

Can anyone comment?

[Marblehead]

I have heard that the inner chapters are all that is reliably attributable to Chuang Tzu himself. The rest are from students and later scholars in his lineage of teaching. So the inner chapters are really what was called here "chapter 1".

 

I point it out because i notice a distinct difference in the style of writing between chap 1 and chap 2

 

Can anyone comment?

 

Chapters 1 - 7 are considered the Inner Chapters. Confidently attributed to Chuang Tzu. The Outer Chapters may or may not include things Chuang Tzu wrote but were likely, in the most part, written by his students but still likely consistent with Chuang Tzu's philosophy. The Miscellaneous Chapters? Who knows?

 

Nice plug for Victor's translation above. Hehehe. But I did say I was going to use Legge's translation so I will do my best to stand by what I said. I reserve the right to change my mind though. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

I have heard that the inner chapters are all that is reliably attributable to Chuang Tzu himself. The rest are from students and later scholars in his lineage of teaching. So the inner chapters are really what was called here "chapter 1".

 

I point it out because i notice a distinct difference in the style of writing between chap 1 and chap 2

 

Can anyone comment?

The inner chapters, the first seven, were known to be written by ZZ himself.

[konchog uma]

Chapters 1 - 7 are considered the Inner Chapters. Confidently attributed to Chuang Tzu. The Outer Chapters may or may not include things Chuang Tzu wrote but were likely, in the most part, written by his students but still likely consistent with Chuang Tzu's philosophy. The Miscellaneous Chapters? Who knows?

 

Nice plug for Victor's translation above. Hehehe. But I did say I was going to use Legge's translation so I will do my best to stand by what I said. I reserve the right to change my mind though. Hehehe.

 

well i will be able to get a copy of Mair's version up for each chapter til the end

 

I love Chuang Tzu just that much! for me the Mair translation changed my life so its very meaningful, i'm really happy to be able to share

[Marblehead]

well i will be able to get a copy of Mair's version up for each chapter til the end

 

I love Chuang Tzu just that much! for me the Mair translation changed my life so its very meaningful, i'm really happy to be able to share

 

Sounds great! I'm glad you can see the value in it.

 

Sure, keep them coming. Always nice to see an alternate translation.

[deci belle]

This is the value of opera!!❤ haha!!

[dawei]

I think that the essential point is missed in the two provided translations.

 

I think Legge actually got the early reference of the 'soul' correctly in his translation (When we sleep, the soul communicates with (what is external to us); when we awake, the body is set free); This is what the 'soul' (Hun) does...

 

But later Legge literally translates "true Ruler" instead of trying to figure out what the True Ruler is... so he never ties the later section back to the soul as Lin Yutang does here:

 

"But for these emotions I should not be. Yet but for me, there would be no one to feel them. So far we can go; but we do not know by whose order they come into play. It would seem there was a soul; but the clue to its existence is wanting. That it functions is credible enough, though we cannot see its form. Perhaps it has inner reality without outward form.

 

"Take the human body with all its hundred bones, nine external cavities and six internal organs, all complete. Which part of it should I love best? Do you not cherish all equally, or have you a preference? Do these organs serve as servants of someone else? Since servants cannot govern themselves, do they serve as master and servants by turn? Surely there is some soul which controls them all.

 

"But whether or not we ascertain what is the true nature of this soul, it matters but little to the soul itself. For once coming into this material shape, it runs its course until it is exhausted."

 

Why does Yutang tie back the true Ruler to the Soul? One has to know the idea behind Hun:

 

The Baihutang stated:

What do the words hun and [po] mean? Hun expresses the idea of continuous propagation ([zhuan] 傳), unresting flight; it is the qi of the Lesser Yang, working in man in an external direction, and it governs the nature (or the instincts, [xing] 性).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Coming from section 2 A, this reminds me of Nagarjuna's teachings about Emptiness. Chuang Tzu asks: you have all these parts, they are dependent and independent, yet there must be one ruler of them all. Just be open rather than suffer the delusion of this or that. Everything is connected so why struggle with ordering each operation when obviously it all works best without all the meddling to confuse them..

[Marblehead]

Have I already mentioned that I believe that what people call the "soul" is our unconcsious mind?

[Marblehead]

... it all works best without all the meddling to confuse them..

 

Hehehe.

[dawei]

Have I already mentioned that I believe that what people call the "soul" is our unconcsious mind?

I kind of like that... but it is intrinsically conscious of something... on an unconscious level... but I won't push it too far... three or four in the morning?

[Marblehead]

I kind of like that... but it is intrinsically conscious of something... on an unconscious level... but I won't push it too far... three or four in the morning?

 

Indeed, we should not push this at all. This isn't the place plus, while discussing this concept there are always more disagreements than there are agreements. The concept messes with people's root beliefs and people don't like that.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Marblehead