Everything & Nothing - Chapter 1 TTC - Tao

[Everything]

My previous topic became useless since I was talking about one aspect, Nothing. While everyone else was talking about Everything. I hope to distinguish the two here in this topic and actually try to convey how they're woven together within the first chapter of Tao Te Ching. Lets try and Unite the two, by reavling their relationship in the end. I might need your help on that!

 

The reason I have to make this new topic is because the other topic I found out something interesting that would require another topic in of it self. This is that topic.

 

I started out with saying that we should accept all Truth as Lie. I hope that most understand by now that accepting all Truth as Lie moves you towards Nothing. The pure potential for all, the masculine wisdom, that which was before the Big Bang, you are without intent, you sense the World, you accept Nothing, accept the answer(beauty). Please consider that this is my own interpretation of Nothing, you may put your own words right there.

Now we add Everything at the other extreme of this spectrum. Thanks to you guys, I realized that Everything is equally significant to Nothing. What belongs on the other half, closer to Everything? The feminine, reality, all that exists and may exist. To accept all Lie(Non-Truth) as Truth. You accept Everything, you anticipate the world, you are with intent, accept the question(mystery). Please understand that this is my own interpretation of Everything, you may put your own words right here.

 

Now I'll show my interpretation on the Woven structure of Everything - Nothing within the first Chapter of Tao Te Ching, to distinguish the Two even further:

 

The Way that can be experienced is not true;

The Way cannot be experienced, it is beyond experience.

The world that can be constructed is not true.

The World cannot be constructed, it is beyond construction.

The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;

The Way is the source of all, it is "Nothing", pure potential that allowed the big bang and still allows all things to happen.

The world represents all that exists and may exist.

The World is "Everything", manifestation of all, that which exists, has existed and shall exist will remain the World(this universe).

 

To experience without intention is to sense the world;

To accept all Truth as Lie, is to sense the world, to accept Nothing, to accept the Source of Everything, masculine wisdom, to accept the answer(beauty) and not question it, remain in the answer, wisdom, certainty, constant.

To experience with intention is to anticipate the world.

To accept all Lie as Truth is to anticipate the world, to accept Everything, to accept the manifestation of Nothing, feminine beauty, to accept the questions(mystery) and not answer it, remain in mystery, uncertainty, questions, change.

These two experiences are indistinguishable;

Accepting Truth as Lie(Nothing) and Lie as Truth(Everything) feels the same. Just try both, they lead to the same place.

Their construction differs but their effect is the same.

Accepting Truth as Lie(Nothing) and Lie as Truth(Everything) seem to have a diffrent construction, this or that, duality. Yet their effect is exactly the same. Not matter what path one chooses, you arrive at the same.

 

Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,

Nothing is beyond your current experience. It is the Masculine mystery of mysterious wisdom.

Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.

Here you are pointed into the right direction of reaching mystery within mystery. To unravel the secrets and find the answer, accept all Truth as Lie, accept Nothing, accept the answer(beauty).

 

I do have to add, to find the question(mystery), accept all Lie as Truth, accept Everything. It is the feminine beauty.

 

 

Now to unite the Two extremes, I will need your help...

The construction of Everything and Nothing differs. These Two differ in construction. How do they relate? Perhaps the relation is that the effect of Everything and Nothing is the same, as is mentioned in Chapter 1 of TTC.

Is the similar effect of these diffrent constructions, Everything and Nothing, (the) Tao?

Edited October 24, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

If you start all over again I might discuss it with you.

 

You lost me when you were thinking before the Big Bang happened. Now Really!!!

[XieJia]

Hello Everything;

 

Interesting stuff you have there,

 

now take Everything and drop it in Nothing.

And throw Nothing at the wall.

Any mess left will be yours to clean.

 

Good luck on your journey..

That's quite something you have here.

 

Edited October 24, 2011 by XieJia

[Everything]

If you start all over again I might discuss it with you.

 

You lost me when you were thinking before the Big Bang happened. Now Really!!!

Well, in science there's really nothing before the big bang. What I ment was that nothing is the source of the big bang and everything(big bang) is the manifestation of nothing(source of big bang).

 

I'm not sure why I lost you. You mean we cannot think about nothing because it is beyond experience?

 

Have you ever had a question that when answered you no longer had that question, but many greater questions replaced it? This is the flow of the Way/Nothing which is ever greater and more subtle then the World/Everything. The more you move into Nothing, the greater Everything becomes. You gain more question instead less, which is what most people think. You have to try both for yourself to realize that the effect of everything and nothing is the same.

 

Their sameness tells of their mystery.

Mystery leading to greater mystery

The gateway to every mystery

 

That is another translation of the last two sentences. It also tries to hint at the Way/Nothing.

 

Am I more clear this way or is it still vague?

Edited October 24, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

Hello Everything;

 

Interesting stuff you have there,

 

now take Everything and drop it in Nothing.

And throw Nothing at the wall.

Any mess left will be yours to clean.

 

Good luck on your journey..

That's quite something you have here.

 

Wait... I'm confused. Your expirement leads nowhere, you tricked me! There is not even a mess left on the wall to clean!

[Protector]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Zheev7y0

 

naw, just kiddin

 

I hate it when people try to understand this stuff and they make up a whole language to describe it and just keep speaking it to try to prove a point, takes months to try to understand it but I think I know how to show you how the two extremes are one.

 

This is a story about yin and yang, the best buddies ever

Once upon a time, there was a very sad girl who had to take antidepressants so she wouldn't kill herself. The experience was so horrible for her that when the negative energy in her was high, she had to relief it by simulating the positive energy with pills. The universe is one, it is always in balance. When there's yin, there's always a way for yang to appear. It always appears in some shape or form because universe is very good at balancing itself.

When a person is yin it wants yang, and when yang then yin. When you're miserable, you want to chase happiness. When you finally find happiness, you throw it away. You want to feel the thrill of the chase again. This is very natural but some people knowing all this, use it to make more happiness go their way.

The energy can transform when it's at the peak of its power. With the two yins you get a yang, with the two yangs you get a yin. A greedy person clinging to his money will loose it, attachment causes suffering and such. It's the law of nature. It is also a law of nature that a poor person will find more money. Poor person working hard is a yin in yin, he will make yang and become rich. When a rich person thinks he is poor, he will find more money. We are all rich and poor, we are in a balance that cancels out both and makes them move in a circle. Be poor and let the universe balance itself out. Read my signature, this is how you become strong rich enlightenment and immortal.

[XieJia]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gQ9Zheev7y0

 

naw, just kiddin

 

 

correct and precise.

Me just another idiot.

 

You lose me there when you talked about the Yin and Yang story.

 

It's better for me not to know;

being stupid have many benefits you know.

One can learn the same things again and again,

only each time things gets a lot more smart as one gets more dumb and dumber.

 

Wasssup and peace out

[Protector]

correct and precise.

Me just another idiot.

 

You lose me there when you talked about the Yin and Yang story.

 

It's better for me not to know;

being stupid have many benefits you know.

One can learn the same things again and again,

only each time things gets a lot more smart as one gets more dumb and dumber.

 

Wasssup and peace out

 

See, perfect example

[ChiDragon]

Chapter One of TTC

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

8. Both are regarded as fathomless; the most mysterious of the mysterious;

9. The gate of all changes.

 

Everything...

This is my translation. Does this make any difference in your think....???

[Everything]

Everything...

This is my translation. Does this make any difference in your think....???

Yeah, it confuses to a point where I'm curious if I should ask a question or not. Am I just blind or what?

Edited October 25, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

See, perfect example

Sinfest, do you think that Tao is an Observer? Like god, who is the greatest of planners, having created this universe and thus being able to predict everything, see all and know all.

[Protector]

Tao that cannot be spoken is not the real Tao

 

Tao that is spoken becomes a lie the moment it's spoken because of the balance of the universe. Wu Wei is a Taoist concept because of its double yin nature that allows open space for actions become yang. In the last thread in my bushido quote, it's the audience in a theater ready to cut two into one.

[Everything]

Tao that cannot be spoken is not the real Tao

 

Tao that is spoken becomes a lie the moment it's spoken because of the balance of the universe. Wu Wei is a Taoist concept because of its double yin nature that allows open space for actions become yang. In the last thread in my bushido quote, it's the audience in a theater ready to cut two into one.

It will be hard to reach a double yang or yin nature, since I don't have a clue when something is double and when its single.

 

Its something like "Do nothing, leave nothing undone"? Or to be without intention, within uncertainty?

Edited October 25, 2011 by Everything

[Protector]

It will be hard to reach a double yang or yin nature, since I don't have a clue when something is double and when its single.

 

Do you have a clue when something is yin or yang?

 

Its something like "Do nothing, leave nothing undone"? Or to be without intention, within uncertainty?

 

Easiest way to understand this is to think backwards.

[Marblehead]

Am I more clear this way or is it still vague?

 

Okay. We have a starting point. You done good.

 

Well, in science there's really nothing before the big bang. What I ment was that nothing is the source of the big bang and everything(big bang) is the manifestation of nothing(source of big bang).

 

I do not accept this thought (hypothesis). I have said this before but I will say it again here: "Everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be. Things just take different form over time."

 

Just because science cannot detect "Oneness" (Singularity) does not mean it did not exist prior to the big bang.

 

It is simply impossible to create something out of nothing. These two, something and nothing, are diametrically opposed.

 

I'm not sure why I lost you. You mean we cannot think about nothing because it is beyond experience?

 

Ooops. You mixed your words (IMO). If we are going to equate nothingness with Taoist "Mystery" then, yes, we cannot think or talk about it. But it can be experienced. How can we logically say "I wasn't me."? I am always me.

 

Have you ever had a question that when answered you no longer had that question, but many greater questions replaced it? This is the flow of the Way/Nothing which is ever greater and more subtle then the World/Everything. The more you move into Nothing, the greater Everything becomes. You gain more question instead less, which is what most people think. You have to try both for yourself to realize that the effect of everything and nothing is the same.

 

Yes. But these new questions do not come from nothingness. They arise as a result of answering the first question. Something from something. Changes.

 

Their sameness tells of their mystery.

Mystery leading to greater mystery

The gateway to every mystery

 

Yes. Going backward, we live in the Manifest, the Manifest is a result of the interaction of Mystery (potential) and Chi (the energy of the universe). Both Mystery and Chi are a result of the 'first cause', the big bang, the end of Oneness (singularity) of Tao.

 

That is another translation of the last two sentences. It also tries to hint at the Way/Nothing.

 

But it is not "Nothing". It is non-descriptive. That is why it is said that the Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao (because of the changingness of Tao).

 

This is where two belief systems vary. One is based in 'nothingness' and the other is based in 'everythingness'.

[Everything]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Zheev7y0

 

naw, just kiddin

 

I hate it when people try to understand this stuff and they make up a whole language to describe it and just keep speaking it to try to prove a point, takes months to try to understand it but I think I know how to show you how the two extremes are one.

 

This is a story about yin and yang, the best buddies ever

Once upon a time, there was a very sad girl who had to take antidepressants so she wouldn't kill herself. The experience was so horrible for her that when the negative energy in her was high, she had to relief it by simulating the positive energy with pills. The universe is one, it is always in balance. When there's yin, there's always a way for yang to appear. It always appears in some shape or form because universe is very good at balancing itself.

When a person is yin it wants yang, and when yang then yin. When you're miserable, you want to chase happiness. When you finally find happiness, you throw it away. You want to feel the thrill of the chase again. This is very natural but some people knowing all this, use it to make more happiness go their way.

The energy can transform when it's at the peak of its power. With the two yins you get a yang, with the two yangs you get a yin. A greedy person clinging to his money will loose it, attachment causes suffering and such. It's the law of nature. It is also a law of nature that a poor person will find more money. Poor person working hard is a yin in yin, he will make yang and become rich. When a rich person thinks he is poor, he will find more money. We are all rich and poor, we are in a balance that cancels out both and makes them move in a circle. Be poor and let the universe balance itself out. Read my signature, this is how you become strong rich enlightenment and immortal.

You mean that what most people view as similar to hell(World) is actually similar to heaven(the Way)?

[Marblehead]

Interesting discussion, that last one, you guys. But I will just sit back and watch for the moment.

[Protector]

You mean that what most people view as similar to hell(World) is actually similar to heaven(the Way)?

 

No

[XieJia]

I have said this before but I will say it again here: "Everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be. Things just take different form over time."

 

It is simply impossible to create something out of nothing.

 

These two, something and nothing, are diametrically opposed.

 

Oh nonono, I won't let you take the backseat.

 

I thought you don't like dualistic stuff.

but that could be my misunderstanding that you don't like dualistic stuffs.

 

@Everything

Told you to throw it against the wall and start all over.

If there's no mess then it's nothing. Start all over.

 

@Sin

You ever try Yin of Yin of Yin or Yang of Yang of Yang?

Just curious .

Edited October 25, 2011 by XieJia

[Protector]

Yeah it's faken painful

[Marblehead]

Oh nonono, I won't let you take the backseat.

 

I thought you don't like dualistic stuff.

but that could be my misunderstanding that you don't like dualistic stuffs.

 

Ah, yes. Dualities. Everything vs Nothing. How opposed can one get? Black vs white?

 

Actually, nothing, true nothing (Absolute Nothingness) cannot exist. The entire universe is everything. Nothingness (Absolute) can be found only beyond the limits of the universe. However, as soon as we imagine a point beyond the limit of the universe we have immediately expanded the boundries of the universe and that point and everything between the previous limit and that point becomes a part of everything.

 

Yes, dualities suck. Dualistic thinking gives us the best reason of all to disagree with each other. Think about that.

[XieJia]

Ah, yes. Dualities. Everything vs Nothing. How opposed can one get? Black vs white?

 

Actually, nothing, true nothing (Absolute Nothingness) cannot exist. The entire universe is everything. Nothingness (Absolute) can be found only beyond the limits of the universe. However, as soon as we imagine a point beyond the limit of the universe we have immediately expanded the boundries of the universe and that point and everything between the previous limit and that point becomes a part of everything.

 

Yes, dualities suck. Dualistic thinking gives us the best reason of all to disagree with each other. Think about that.

 

just names Boss, just names.

Lets go back to 2nd chapter Dao De Jing.

 

[zanshin]

Ah, yes. Dualities. Everything vs Nothing. How opposed can one get? Black vs white?

 

Actually, nothing, true nothing (Absolute Nothingness) cannot exist. The entire universe is everything. Nothingness (Absolute) can be found only beyond the limits of the universe. However, as soon as we imagine a point beyond the limit of the universe we have immediately expanded the boundries of the universe and that point and everything between the previous limit and that point becomes a part of everything.

 

Yes, dualities suck. Dualistic thinking gives us the best reason of all to disagree with each other. Think about that.

 

Actually, scientists can't even account for over 90% of the universe and that is why they have theories about dark matter and energy, although no one really knows what that is, but if it's there the equations work better.

[Marblehead]

just names Boss, just names.

Lets go back to 2nd chapter Dao De Jing.

 

 

While it is true that they are only words, these words form concepts and understandings in our mind.

 

Chapter 2? Yeah, filled with dualistic concepts.

 

"10. Therefore the Sage dwells in nonactive affairs and practices the wordless teaching."

 

While I have never suggested that I am a sage or even close to being one, if I only sit here at the computer and type no words what use would I be to any of Y'all?

 

Sometimes words need be used. Like, "Don't do that!"

 

Then the question in reply would likely be, "Why?"

 

Then the dangers of doing that could be explained.

 

And while it is true that I try to eliminate dualistic thinking as much as possible there is, none-the-less, hot water and cold water. Both are useful. Hot water to boil an egg and cold water to take a shower when I am horny. (I don't need that anymore but I thought it fit in well.)

[Everything]

And while it is true that I try to eliminate dualistic thinking as much as possible there is, none-the-less, hot water and cold water. Both are useful. Hot water to boil an egg and cold water to take a shower when I am horny. (I don't need that anymore but I thought it fit in well.)

So what you're saying is that hot and cold is not a dual/opposite, right? They are both abstracted from temperature