Baguazhang Training Wheels

[spiraltao]

I was discussing Baguazhang with a very talented (not sure if he is sifu, but most likely is) Fu Style practitioner. He advised me to NOT WASTE TIME ON BAGUAZANG, as of NOW.

 

 

 

I told him the fact that I had no tai chi experience, but some xingyi and wing chun.

 

 

 

He said that TAI CHI must be mastered b4 going on to bagua, or at least the 105 set Fu style. He said to begin with 24 posture. ...and that "grasping bird's tail" in Fu style tai chi was essential to understand baguazhang

 

 

 

 

 

 

ON THE OTHER HAND, I have been looking at it like Sifu Matsuo said "One could practice tai chi, hsing I and pa kua or JUST PA KUA!" My sifu threw me right into the bagua. No push hands experience ala taiji, but sticky hands from wing chun.

 

 

 

 

 

I am interested in any opinions.

 

 

 

JAYSAHNZ TAO

[Sloppy Zhang]

Here's what I have gathered from B.K. Frantzis' writings...

 

The circle walking meditations and qigong work of Bagua were what they have been doing in Taoist monasteries for thousands of years. If you were to climb up a mountain and be accepted into the monastery, after they'd tested your mettle in whether you could handle the training, and whether you could basically physically do the movements involved, they'd start teaching you how to walk, how to hold static arm postures, and then proceed to teach you the single palm change, which was pretty much the basis of the meditation that they did in the monastic tradition.

 

At this point, let me mention the different schools of Bagua (at least connected to B.K. Frantzis). No one really knows where Dong Haichuan learned his circle walking. He always said he just learned it from two monks in the mountains. He combined it with what he knew of martial arts, and started teaching. When he taught, he only really taught students who were already great martial artists (Yin Fu in Luohan Chuan, Cheng Ting Hua in Chinese wrestling, etc). He'd adapt circle walking to their styles, and help them come up with different techniques. This is where most of the Bagua schools around today are coming off of- the students of Dong Haichuan.

 

Frantzis' last teacher, Liu Hung Chieh, studied some of these bagua methods (studying with the Cheng family directly, if I recall correctly, but since at that time everybody was training with everybody, he also trained with one of the Ma people in the Yin style- but back in those days, the "styles" hadn't really coalesced into what they are today). But he also, after studying Buddhism, went to a Taoist monastery to learn Taoism, and there he learned their circle walking meditation method. Liu Hung Chieh was convinced that this circle walking method, or at least one very similar to it, was what Dong Haichuan originally learned, and which he started to implement martially. Of course, this walking method wasn't for martial arts per se. It had highly advanced qigong cultivation, which, yes, could translate into martial strength. But really it was about giving you a foothold into meditation.

 

Frantzis really likes Bagua, and thinks it is the most sophisticated of the internal martial arts, involving spirals and twists and dynamic motion that is just not found in Tai Chi and Xingyi (not to say that the other two don't do what they do really well, he just maintains that Bagua goes places that they don't even start to touch on).

 

When Frantzis says that Bagua is the only "pure Taoist" art, he's referring to the monastic tradition of the Bagua circle walking, which predates Tai Chi and Xingyi by hundreds, if not a thousand years. The martial bagua traditions had varying degrees of Shaolin influence, and retained or lost varying degrees of their original Taoist meditation influence. Some practitioners didn't care, and just wanted martial power.

 

Now it should be mentioned that other arts can be adapted to have the higher level meditations. Liu Hung Chieh did that with the Wu style Tai Chi that he learned with the founder of the Wu style and his family. They actually went and paired it with specific meditations to produce meditative effects similar to pure taoist arts. But not all Tai Chi styles are like that.

 

Not to get too much of a tangent, but Tai Chi history is pretty interesting as well. The main line of it coming from the Chen village had it as a mix of various Shaolin arts. Basically, for 7 or so generations the Chens were known as great fighters. One of the Chens was involved in a losing military/political battle, and sought refuge at the Shaolin temple. There he met with people and learned some Chinese medicine, and decided to adapt his art in such a way as to be in line with the health principles, but at the same time generate power. So at least from that angle, it was never meditative at all, per se. It was just trying to get the best bang for your buck without screwing up your body. Now there are one or two figures in the Chen family history that some say are responsible for injecting a Taoist/meditative/Wudang/whatever influence. I haven't researched much about that, or where the non Chen village Tai Chi arts came from. But that's a huge tangent...

 

 

Basically, the training order heavily depends on what lineage you are coming from, and what that lineage teaches. I have no idea about the lineage that you are training from or where this guy is training from. It may very well be that the way they teach it, their Tai Chi teaches stuff that they later incorporate into how they do Bagua. And it may work wonderfully for them.

 

But as far as I can tell, historically, Bagua has always been on its own and doing its own thing. It can be physically more challenging than other internal arts, so from that perspective, you may need to get used to moving a certain way in other arts before tackling bagua. But if you can handle bagua and are getting results (!) then don't feel pressure to do something some other way.

 

 

Sources: All of Frantzis' writings that are publicly available, including the material on his website, The Whirling Circles of Baguazhang by Frank Allen (the intro gives a very great breakdown of how all the Bagua lineages got their start, who was cross training with who before the styles got more or less hammered out, and where Liu Hung Chieh was at that time), random internet sites concerning Tai Chi I magically discovered by internet coincidence, and various forum posts from forums I've perused about the subject (because, you know, before I get involved in something, I like to do a background check, check the lineage, and see if they are who they say they are, and what exactly that means).

Edited October 26, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Dainin]

You've already seen incredible changes in your own health from bagua practices, as you've discussed in your other thread. In my view, that should take precedence over anyone else's opinion, no matter how learned or skilled they are.

[spiraltao]

@ Sloppy Zhang-Thanks for the information. I own Whirling Circles. It's the only Baguazhang book that I know of that has the animal postures in it. In our system we have a weight form which is walking the nine palace stepping with weights attached to the arms. I know this seems very external, but Master Ng's training methods have always worked for me! Sorry to go off topic. I appreciate relaying the tai chi story!

 

 

 

 

@Dainin

 

 

 

You are right. What you posted is exactly what my conscience was telling me anyway. My opinion is that it easy to get pulled in the wrong direction when one supplements their training with what one WANTS, not what one NEEDS! Does this make sense?

 

 

 

I do love da cheng chuan, though. ZZ has played a part in my healing and Da Cheng Chuan would be the next step. ...but so far using ZZ with my bagua has worked GREAT!

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the insight.

:excl:

[mYTHmAKER]

I was discussing Baguazhang with a very talented (not sure if he is sifu, but most likely is) Fu Style practitioner. He advised me to NOT WASTE TIME ON BAGUAZANG, as of NOW.

He said that TAI CHI must be mastered b4 going on to bagua, or at least the 105 set Fu style. He said to begin with 24 posture. ...and that "grasping bird's tail" in Fu style tai chi was essential to understand baguazhang

 

Some people focus on only one of internal art and some learn all three.

I have heard it said to learn one well is enough.

My teacher started us on Chen taiji and added some bagua and xingi.

He teaches how they work together.

If i were you I would try taiji to see if you like it.

I wouldn't be too quick to learn your Fu style practitioner as he might be telling you to study his style just because it is his style and it is a very opinionated statement - perhaps without real foundation or knowledge. BTW I don't know anything about Fu style.

I also do Wu style taiji - I find Chen complements - enhances bagua more than Wu.

If you have time explore but by all means do not drop bagua for taiji unless you really fall in love with it and odds are you'll do both.

[Franklin]

pretty much the same as what was already said to you in this thread.

 

you seem to enjoy your bagua practice and have seen huge results from it

so why stop and choose something else

if it is working and you are finding the practice not only beneficial but also enjoyable

there is nothing wrong with that

 

 

you should also keep in mind that there are lots of different styles of bagua

I don't personally know much about Fu style but from what i have seen in print and in video some of the Fu style bagua forms are very dynamic with lots of spins

maybe their curriculum takes you tot hat point with taichi first

I have also seen some video of forms from that system that look very much like shaolin as well

 

 

 

also if you are interested in DaChengQuan you should check out the books by Wang Xuan Jie

I like this one in particular

http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Chinese-Therapeutic-Exercises-Techniques/dp/7119006967/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1319601675&sr=8-2

but see if you can find a cheap copy somewhere on the net

its a good little book with lots of good information

nothing mind blowing but just lots of good solid information like:

a good introduction and history of zhan zhuang and yang sheng

zhang zhuang- standing and lying

moving exercises

walking exercises- including circle walking

and some supplementary exercises

and a very good chapter on the therapeutic effects of practice

 

 

Franklin

[spiraltao]

I don't usually sleep alot, I tend to use it as time to plan my day and my general path in life. Last nite was no exception. I think the Fu stylist was sincere and it may well be because of the spins, but the system I am training in does not emphasize the spins as much, but they are there. The footwork preparation has been a year so far! lol I truly didn't understand at first, ask Zerostao, lol.

 

 

Triangle footwork drills, crane stepping, mudstepping, inside turns, outside turns, single change, double change, reeling palm, are all drilled daily.

 

 

 

To correct myself the fu style practitioner said that Liang Yi was the precursor to bagua and tai chi the precursor to Liang Yi.

 

 

 

 

I am not backing up from baguazhang though, it has changed my life and it keeps getting better.

 

 

 

 

Best wishes to ya buncha towel bums HAHAHA luv ya guys

[joeblast]

imho, sorta like saying one needs to learn music theory in order to be a guitar player of course it will help you, but absolutely necessary? you can go back and learn it, though your overall learning path may wind up a lil different!

[yangluchan]

Hey man,

 

Your posts have been very inspiring to me, and I'll take up Bagua again myself too (dabbled in it before), in part because of your inspiration! Got the new DragonGate Bagua Basics as well as Heart of Bagua and Whipping Palms on the way.

 

To correct myself the fu style practitioner said that Liang Yi was the precursor to bagua and tai chi the precursor to Liang Yi.

 

I think this man was talking from what he knows in their system? In Fu Style they practice Liangyiquan first I believe (which is a form made by Fu Zhen Song, a blend of different internal arts), then Taijiquan and then Baguazhang.

 

Now, this might be a good way to go about it, as I've seen the Liangyiquan form on Youtube, and it looks like a good way into the internal arts.

 

However, that you have to start with Taijiquan and then go into Baguazhang... I don't think this is the case. I've no doubt it works good, as they do it in the Fu style, but from my lineage (Montaigue) I actually think a beginner might have better luck defending himself learning Baguazhang for the first year then Taijiquan for the first year.

 

I also think it varies a great deal depending upon the person, some might be better off starting with Taijiquan, some with Baguazhang. And I think the easiest (even though I've never practiced it) way into internal arts for beginners might be Xingyiquan.

[Sloppy Zhang]

To correct myself the fu style practitioner said that Liang Yi was the precursor to bagua and tai chi the precursor to Liang Yi.

 

I'm not really down on my Fu style, but is this the Fu style that we're talking about, starting with Fu Zhen Song?

 

By "precursor", you mean "comes first in training", not "came first historically", right?

 

This all seems to come from Fu Zhen Song, who seems to have created Liang Yi Quan.

 

In which case, it seems that this is a training order specific to the Fu style to slowly build up the practitioner, and get their body trained to various levels of intensity in movement, so that way they don't injure themselves by practicing.

 

So they've got Tai Chi, which is pretty relaxed and straight forward. Liang Yi takes this, and builds up some more twisting movement and some more action, and then it culminates in Bagua, which probably puts the most stress on the body, and might be damaging to the body if not trained correctly (and in Fu style, they may build up the body by doing Liang Yi and Tai Chi, but in other styles, for instance, the mixed Xingyi and Bagua styles, they may build up the body by doing Xingyi, and in styles mixed with Tai Chi, they'll build up the body using Tai Chi, and in pure Bagua styles, they'll have their own unique training methods!)

 

But please understand, if I am correct in reading from the right sources, this is a training method specific to the Fu style, and is not necessarily the way that the founder, Fu Zhen Song learned. Fu Zhen Song probably took what he knew and made a training program which he thought was best for beginning students to go from beginner to advanced with the least risk of harming their bodies.

 

Fu Zhen Song didn't learn it this way. He seems to have come up with it after the fact based on what he thought would be most effective for beginners to build upon.

 

Other martial arts lineages have different ways of training the body in preparation for correct practice. If you've already got a practice and already got a lineage, and are already seeing results, there is no need to drop all of that and restart based on the training method of someone else.

 

You've obviously got your own training method from your own style to build up the body, learn to walk correctly, etc etc etc. The Fu style has their own method to build up the body, move correctly, etc. The Yin style Bagua has their own method. Xingyiquan has their own method. Xingyiquan that is mixed with Bagua has their own methods (which may differ from the pure Xingyi schools). Chen tai chi has their own methods, which may differ from the Yang and the Wu styles.

 

If you've got a teacher teaching you how your lineage does things, and you're getting results, it'd be silly to start over right from ground zero just because someone from another lineage does their progression a bit differently.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[spiraltao]

@yangluchan-Thanks so much! To know that I am inspiring inspires me! lol Lemme tell you, from what Zerostao has taught me and their kindness to take the time to answer more than one of my questions, you can NOT go wrong with DGS. I would love to own the Bagua Basics DVD. Can't decide on it or empath's guide to the universe for a Christmas present. hehe-_-

 

 

 

Erle and I corresponded, as he was a kind and humble human being as well. He knew my Grand Master Pickens and they done alot of corresponding. So, I suppose you and I have quite similar training methods and theories.

 

 

@joeblast-Yet another great analogy! Thanks for helping me understand and come to a conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

@Sloppy Zhang-By precursor I mean in training and historically in regards to liang yi. In my opinion, this suggested order and not starting str8 out with baguazhang is exclusive to the training ideas of the modern day Victor Fu.

 

 

 

 

 

My conclusion is that I will continue my bagua practice until my heart leads me other places. My training as a child had bagua methods hidden in it that I am still seeing and understanding. Why just the other day, I realized that double leg fajin was a huge part of class. (not sure if this is the correct term, but making sure both feet land at the exact same time to issue power) We also had a stance form that was encouraged to be held for long periods of time, ala, ZZ. Our three point blocking system is nearly the same as Erle's from one of the clips of Bagua fighting. We learned to make a block a strike and snake in for another strike, to stick. A few key baguazhang concepts.

 

 

 

So my conclusion is that Grandmaster Pickens prepared us for the bagua in my childhood training. It was far more than wing chun and tiger for me!

 

 

 

 

I am getting wonderful results, so there will be no change, I tend to think a lot.

Edited October 26, 2011 by jaysahnztao

[Birch]

You may like http://www.amazon.com/Whirling-Circles-Ba-Gua-Zhang/dp/1583941894

[spiraltao]

You may like http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/1583941894

 

Actually there is a funny story behind that book -K-, it was the first book on baguazhang that I ever purchased. I acquired it at the very beginning of my training. Then, I let Sifu borrow it. LOL

 

 

He is still reading it, that was in about May of last year, lol. So I bought the Liang Shou Yu and YJM BGZ book.

 

I remember reading the history of bagua in that book. I found it very well written and easy to understand. It covers Cheng style, no?

 

I gotta get that one back.

 

 

THANKS for the sugggestion -K=!

 

Any other books on bagua you would recommend?

[Birch]

Actually there is a funny story behind that book -K-, it was the first book on baguazhang that I ever purchased. I acquired it at the very beginning of my training. Then, I let Sifu borrow it. LOL

 

 

He is still reading it, that was in about May of last year, lol. So I bought the Liang Shou Yu and YJM BGZ book.

 

I remember reading the history of bagua in that book. I found it very well written and easy to understand. It covers Cheng style, no?

 

I gotta get that one back.

THANKS for the sugggestion -K=!

 

Any other books on bagua you would recommend?

 

That's the only bagua book I have. It's also where the sh*t story came from (the one in the pit). You should know I don't do bagua. I don't do martial arts. I fight like a girl.

 

I do like the 'Qi gong empowerment, book (big pink one) and http://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Secret-Youth-Changing-Classics/dp/1886969841/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b.

[doc benway]

 

Any other books on bagua you would recommend?

Are you familiar with the Pa Kua Journal?

Well worth the $35 investment!

[spiraltao]

Are you familiar with the Pa Kua Journal?

Well worth the $35 investment!

 

Thanks for the link!

[GreytoWhite]

If you can stand a little bit of forum drama you may also want to check out RumSoakedFist.org as there are a number of experienced practitioners there.

[lazy cloud]

My Tai Chi Chuan experience before I started Pakua Chang was certainly valuable. I thought it was a required prerequisite.

I still feel that is the case for most players. However after meeting Ricky and Scott , I appreciate that they are accomplished Internal Martial Artists without having a Tai Chi Foundation.

 

Zeros did have Tai Chi first but once he began Pakua his game jumped up surprisingly quickly. Another friend suggested this to me this morning. "By looking at a little, One can see a lot. By looking at a lot, one may see nothing useful."

 

It is good to take a look around and see what others are doing and the results they are getting. But do not fall into chasing after schools or teachers (regardless how flashy) unless you have progressed past your current teacher(s).

Trust yourself and trust the teachers you have now.

Edited November 7, 2011 by lazy cloud