Chuang Tzu Chapter 2, Section G

[Marblehead]

Section G

 

Qu Quezi asked Chang Wuzi, saying, 'I heard the Master (speaking of such language as the following): "The sagely man does not occupy himself with worldly affairs. He does not put himself in the way of what is profitable, nor try to avoid what is hurtful; he has no pleasure in seeking (for anything from any one); he does not care to be found in (any established) Way; he speaks without speaking; he does not speak when he speaks; thus finding his enjoyment outside the dust and dirt (of the world)." The Master considered all this to be a shoreless flow of mere words, and I consider it to describe the course of the Mysterious Way - What do you, Sir, think of it?' Chang Wuzi replied, 'The hearing of such words would have perplexed even Huang Di, and how should Qiu be competent to understand them? And you, moreover, are too hasty in forming your estimate (of their meaning). You see the egg, and (immediately) look out for the cock (that is to be hatched from it); you see the bow, and (immediately) look out for the dove (that is to be brought down by it) being roasted. I will try to explain the thing to you in a rough way; do you in the same way listen to me. How could any one stand by the side of the sun and moon, and hold under his arm all space and all time? (Such language only means that the sagely man) keeps his mouth shut, and puts aside questions that are uncertain and dark; making his inferior capacities unite with him in honouring (the One Lord). Men in general bustle about and toil; the sagely man seems stupid and to know nothing. He blends ten thousand years together in the one (conception of time); the myriad things all pursue their spontaneous course, and they are all before him as doing so. How do I know that the love of life is not a delusion? and that the dislike of death is not like a young person's losing his way, and not knowing that he is (really) going home? Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her, she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept. How do I know that the dead do not repent of their former craving for life? Those who dream of (the pleasures of) drinking may in the morning wail and weep; those who dream of wailing and weeping may in the morning be going out to hunt. When they were dreaming they did not know it was a dream; in their dream they may even have tried to interpret it; but when they awoke they knew that it was a dream. And there is the great awaking, after which we shall know that this life was a great dream. All the while, the stupid think they are awake, and with nice discrimination insist on their knowledge; now playing the part of rulers, and now of grooms. Bigoted was that Qiu! He and you are both dreaming. I who say that you are dreaming am dreaming myself. These words seem very strange; but if after ten thousand ages we once meet with a great sage who knows how to explain them, it will be as if we met him (unexpectedly) some morning or evening.

 

Since you made me enter into this discussion with you, if you have got the better of me and not I of you, are you indeed right, and I indeed wrong? If I have got the better of you and not you of me, am I indeed right and you indeed wrong? Is the one of us right and the other wrong? are we both right or both wrong? Since we cannot come to a mutual and common understanding, men will certainly continue in darkness on the subject. Whom shall I employ to adjudicate in the matter? If I employ one who agrees with you, how can he, agreeing with you, do so correctly? And the same may be said, if I employ one who agrees with me. It will be the same if I employ one who differs from us both or one who agrees with us both. In this way I and you and those others would all not be able to come to a mutual understanding; and shall we then wait for that (great sage)? (We need not do so.) To wait on others to learn how conflicting opinions are changed is simply like not so waiting at all. The harmonising of them is to be found in the invisible operation of Heaven, and by following this on into the unlimited past. It is by this method that we can complete our years (without our minds being disturbed). What is meant by harmonising (conflicting opinions) in the invisible operation of Heaven? There is the affirmation and the denial of it; and there is the assertion of an opinion and the rejection of it. If the affirmation be according to the reality of the fact, it is certainly different from the denial of it - there can be no dispute about that. If the assertion of an opinion be correct, it is certainly different from its rejection - neither can there be any dispute about that. Let us forget the lapse of time; let us forget the conflict of opinions. Let us make our appeal to the Infinite, and take up our position there.'

 

The Penumbra asked the Shadow, saying, 'Formerly you were walking on, and now you have stopped; formerly you were sitting, and now you have risen up - how is it that you are so without stability?' The Shadow replied, 'I wait for the movements of something else to do what I do, and that something else on which I wait waits further on another to do as it does. My waiting, is it for the scales of a snake, or the wings of a cicada? How should I know why I do one thing, or do not do another?

 

Formerly, I, Zhuang Zhou, dreamt that I was a butterfly, a butterfly flying about, feeling that it was enjoying itself. I did not know that it was Zhou. Suddenly I awoke, and was myself again, the veritable Zhou. I did not know whether it had formerly been Zhou dreaming that he was a butterfly, or it was now a butterfly dreaming that it was Zhou. But between Zhou and a butterfly there must be a difference. This is a case of what is called the Transformation of Things.'

[konchog uma]

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables"

 

"I have heard from Confucius," said Master Timid Magpie,

inquiring of Master Tall Tree, "that the sage does not involve

himself in worldly affairs. He does not go after gain, nor does he

avoid harm. He does not take pleasure in seeking, nor does he get

bogged down in formalistic ways. He speaks without saying

anything; he says something without speaking. Instead, he wan-

ders beyond the dust of the mundane world. Confucius thinks

this is a vague description of the sage, but I think that it is the

working of the wondrous Way. What do you think of it, my

master?"

"Even the Yellow Emperor would be perplexed by hearing

these things" said Master Tall Tree. "How is Hillock capable of

understanding them? It seems that you, too, are overly hasty in

forming an estimate. You're counting your chickens before

they're hatched, drooling over roast owl at the sight of a crossbow

pellet.

"Let me say a few careless words to you and you listen

carelessly, all right? The sage can lean against the sun and moon

and tuck the universe under his arm because he melds things into

a whole, Sets aside obfuscation, And is indifferent to baseness and honor.

 

The mass of men are all hustle-bustle

The sage is slow and simple.

He combines myriad years

Into a single purity.

Thus does he treat the myriad things,

And thereby gathers them together.

 

"How do I know that love of life is not a delusion? How do I

know that fear of death is not like being a homeless waif who

does not know the way home? When the state of Chin first got

Pretty Li, the daughter of the border warden of Ai, she wept till

her robe was soaked with tears . But after she arrived at the king's

residence, shared his fine bed, and could eat the tender meats of

his table, she regretted that she had ever wept . How do I know

that the dead may not regret their former lust for life?

"Someone who dreams of drinking wine at a cheerful ban-

quet may wake up crying the next morning. Someone who

dreams of crying may go off the next morning to enjoy the sport

of the hunt. When we are in the midst of a dream, we do not

know it's a dream. Sometimes we may even try to interpret our

dreams while we are dreaming, but then we awake and realize it

was a dream. Only after one is greatly awakened does one realize

that it was all a great dream, while the fool thinks that he is

awake and presumptuously aware. "My excellent lord!" "Oh, thou

humble shepherd!" How perverse they are!

Both Confucius and you are dreaming, and I too am

dreaming when I say that you are dreaming . This sort of lan-

guage may be called enigmatic, but after myriad generations there

may appear a great sage who will know how to explain it and he

will appear as though overnight .

"Suppose that you and I have a dispute . If you beat me and I

lose to you, does that mean you're really right and I'm really

wrong? If I beat you and you lose to me, does that mean I'm really

right and you're really wrong? Is one of us right and the other

wrong? Or are both of us right and both of us wrong? Neither you

nor I can know, and others are even more in the dark. Whom shall

we have decide the matter? Shall we have someone who agrees

with you decide it? Since he agrees with you, how can he decide

fairly? Shall we have someone who agrees with me decide it? Since

he agrees with me, how can he decide fairly? Shall we have

someone who differs with both of us decide it? Since he differs

with both of us, how can he make a decision? Shall we have

someone who agrees with both of us decide it? Since he agrees

with both of us, how can he make a decision? Given that neither

you nor I, nor another person, can know how to decide, shall we

wait for still another?

"Whether the alternating voices of disputation are relative

to each other or not, they may be harmonized within the

framework of nature and allowed to follow their own effusive

elaboration so they may live out their years. What does 'harmo-

nized within the framework of nature' mean? I would say, `Right

may be not right, so may be not so. If right were really right, then

right would be distinct from not right, and there would be no

dispute. If so were really so, then so would be distinct from not

so and there would be no dispute. Forget how many years there

are in a lifespan, forget righteousness . If you ramble in the realm

of infinity, you will reside in the realm of infinity ."

 

Penumbra inquired of Shadow, saying, " One moment you move

and the next moment you stand still; one moment you're seated

and the next moment you get up. Why are you so lacking in

constancy? "

Shadow said, "Must I depend on something else to be what I

am? If so, must what I depend upon in turn depend upon

something else to be what it is? Must I depend upon the scales of

a snake's belly or the forewings of a cicada? How can I tell why I

am what I am? How can I tell why I 'm not what I'm not?"

 

Once upon a time Chuang Chou dreamed that he was a butterfly,

a butterfly flitting about happily enjoying himself. He didn't

know that he was Chou. Suddenly he awoke and was palpably

Chou. He did not know whether he was Chou who had dreamed

of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming that he was Chou.

Now, there must be a difference between Chou and the butterfly.

This is called the transformation of things.

[XieJia]

dreaming and not dreaming.

speaking and not speaking.

 

What do one do when one dreams,

What do one do when one speaks,

 

Confucius is portray as the Dreamer; so does Master Timid Magpie.

 

Dreaming has its boundaries;

to dream is to set this boundaries

to dream is to see this boundaries

to dream is to be this boundaries

 

not-dreaming no boundaries

not-dreaming not to set boundaries

not-dreaming not to see boundaries

not-dreaming not to be this boundaries

 

so such is with thinking, speaking, wording.

just temporary boundaries, meanings are temporary.

 

thus it is useful to know the unknowing.

thus it is harmful to don't know the knowing.

Edited October 30, 2011 by XieJia

[dawei]

I have a problem with the typical translation of the opening:

 

Legge:

The sagely man does not occupy himself with worldly affairs. He does not put himself in the way of what is profitable, nor try to avoid what is hurtful; he has no pleasure in seeking (for anything from any one); he does not care to be found in (any established) Way; he speaks without speaking; he does not speak when he speaks; thus finding his enjoyment outside the dust and dirt (of the world)." The Master considered all this to be a shoreless flow of mere words, and I consider it to describe the course of the Mysterious Way

 

Mair:

that the sage does not involve himself in worldly affairs. He does not go after gain, nor does he avoid harm. He does not take pleasure in seeking, nor does he get bogged down in formalistic ways. He speaks without saying anything; he says something without speaking. Instead, he wanders beyond the dust of the mundane world. Confucius thinks this is a vague description of the sage, but I think that it is the working of the wondrous Way.

 

 

Yutang:

'The true Sage pays no heed to worldly affairs. He neither seeks gain nor avoids injury. He asks nothing at the hands of man and does not adhere to rigid rules of conduct. Sometimes he says something without speaking and sometimes he speaks without saying anything. And so he roams beyond the limits of this mundane world.

 

'These,' commented Confucius, 'are futile fantasies.' But to me they are the embodiment of the most wonderful Tao.

 

Burton:

I have heard Confucius say that the sage does not work at anything, does not pursue profit, does not dodge harm, does not enjoy being sought after, does not follow the Way, says nothing yet says something, says something yet says nothing, and wanders beyond the dust and grime. Confucius himself regarded these as wild and flippant words, though I believe they describe the working of the mysterious Way.

 

---

 

IMO, Confucius would NOT say this; all that he taught seems to suggest he would say the opposite. The traditional versions above make Confucius sound like a Daoist but then why would ZZ say he is wrong?

 

I finally found a translation which makes sense to me.

 

Eno:

I have heard it from the Master that he regarded as wild and excessive teachings that hold that the Sage does not strive towards any goal, does not pursue benefit or evade harm, takes no pleasure is seeking for things and does not stick to the Dao; that when he is silent he is speaking and when he is speaking he is silent, and that he roams beyond the world of dust. But I regard these as the practice of the marvelous Dao.

 

Now this makes complete sense: In this version, Confucius sees such thinking as "wild and excessive" which is what we would expect of him concerning the idea to 'not strive towards any goal'.

 

It seems the construction of the sentence depends on where you put these words in translation; in this final construction, although these words are at the end of the sentence the translator sees them as belonging to the description of Confucius thought about the Sage.

 

In the end, this is continuing the previous sections which seem to really call for 'relativism' over judgement; non-distinction of this and that. Here it goes further by saying it is all just a dream. It doesn't sound like basic philosophy but how to approach it without leaving philosophy behind?

Edited October 31, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

I have a problem with the typical translation of the opening:

...

 

I finally found a translation which makes sense to me.

 

Eno:

I have heard it from the Master that he regarded as wild and excessive teachings that hold that the Sage does not strive towards any goal, does not pursue benefit or evade harm, takes no pleasure in seeking for things and does not stick to the Dao; that when he is silent he is speaking and when he is speaking he is silent, and that he roams beyond the world of dust. But I regard these as the practice of the marvelous Dao.

 

I totally agree.

 

The last sentence is of great importance, in my opinion.

[lienshan]

I have a problem with the typical translation of the opening

You are right; all translations miss the pointe because they overlook a person: 吾子

吾子 is the confucian disciple 子我 Zi Wo

Both 吾 and 我 means 'I, we' but 吾 is always in front of the word it belongs to.

 

He had 'a sharp mouth', according to Sima Qian. Once, when he was at the court of Chu on some commission, the king Chao offered him an easy carriage adorned with ivory for his master. Zi Wo replied, 'My master is a man who would rejoice in a government where right principles were carried out, and can find his joy in himself when that is not the case. Now right principles and virtue are as it were in a state of slumber. His wish is to rouse and put them in motion. Could he find a prince really anxious to rule according to them, he would walk on foot to his court and be glad to do so. Why need he receive such a valuable gift, as this from so great a distance?' Confucius commended this reply; but where he is mentioned in the Analects, Zi Wo does not appear to great advantage.

 

The related sentence in Zhuangzi's story:

 

夫子以為孟浪之言

而我以為妙道之行也

吾子以為奚若

 

What confuses the translators is the grammatical 也 character, that makes

the middle line a subordinate clause between the first and last part of the sentence:

 

Our master considered it the word of eminent wastefulness,

that which you and I consider the walk of subtle Tao,

and Zi Wo considered it submissiveness.

 

The pointe is, how can Confucius know the walk of subtle Tao when driving in a carriage,

but this next line does too contain a 也 character misunderstood by the translators.

Edited November 7, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

I have a problem with the typical translation of the opening:

...............

 

IMO, Confucius would NOT say this; all that he taught seems to suggest he would say the opposite. The traditional versions above make Confucius sound like a Daoist but then why would ZZ say he is wrong?

 

I finally found a translation which makes sense to me.

 

Eno:

I have heard it from the Master that he regarded as wild and excessive teachings that hold that the Sage does not strive towards any goal, does not pursue benefit or evade harm, takes no pleasure is seeking for things and does not stick to the Dao; that when he is silent he is speaking and when he is speaking he is silent, and that he roams beyond the world of dust. But I regard these as the practice of the marvelous Dao.

 

Now this makes complete sense: In this version, Confucius sees such thinking as "wild and excessive" which is what we would expect of him concerning the idea to 'not strive towards any goal'.

 

It seems the construction of the sentence depends on where you put these words in translation; in this final construction, although these words are at the end of the sentence the translator sees them as belonging to the description of Confucius thought about the Sage.

 

In the end, this is continuing the previous sections which seem to really call for 'relativism' over judgement; non-distinction of this and that. Here it goes further by saying it is all just a dream. It doesn't sound like basic philosophy but how to approach it without leaving philosophy behind?

 

I have heard it from the Master that he regarded as wild and excessive teachings that hold that the Sage does not strive towards any goal, does not pursue benefit or evade harm, takes no pleasure is seeking for things and does not stick to the Dao; that when he is silent he is speaking and when he is speaking he is silent, and that he roams beyond the world of dust. But I regard these as the practice of the marvelous Dao.

 

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」

 

吾聞諸夫子:

吾聞諸: I heard from

夫子: a teacher, a nickname for Confucius because he was a great teacher.

 

"I have heard it from the great teacher that he regarded a sage was not very serious in conducting his affairs, does not pursue benefit or causing harm, does not eager for pleasure, does not associate with Tao; ...."

The reason that a sage wasn't serious in conducting his affairs is because he has gained his sagacious status. Thus everything he does, without additional effort, was already in the sagacious level.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」

 

The reason that a sage wasn't serious in conducting his affairs is because he has gained his sagacious status.

Thus everything he does, without additional effort, was already in the sagacious level.

Ju Que Zi asked Chang Wu Zi saying:

I've from our master heard this of a sage not following duty by doing his utmost:

Not coveting profit is to not being apart from jealous like not enjoying importunity is to not following Tao.

Not having an opinion is to having an opinion like having an opinion is to not having an opinion.

But when one travels, isn't the dust and the dirt on the outside?

Our master considered it the words of eminent wastefulness,

that which you and I consider the walk of subtle Tao,

and Zi Wo considered it submissiveness.

Chang Wu Zi said:

This, what makes Huang Di's understanding shine,

is yours and Qui's whichone foot creates knowledge?

 

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰

吾聞諸夫子聖人不從事於務

不就利 , 不違害 , 不喜求 , 不緣道

無謂 , 有謂 , 有謂 , 無謂

而遊乎塵垢之外

夫子以為孟浪之言

而我以為妙道之行也

吾子以為奚若

長梧子曰

是黃帝之所聽熒也

而丘也何足以知之

 

in red is Qu Que Zi asking

in blue is a Confucius quote

in green is Chang Wu Zi answering

 

Chang Wu Zi mentions Confucius using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.

Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is equal to Gongye Chang 公冶長, styled Zi-chang (al. Zi-zhi) 子長 (al. 子芝).

He was son-in-law to Confucius.

 

The two lines quoting Confucius are special sentence constructions;

Laozi's favourite argumentation formula of four components:

A relates to B like C relates to D (the Tao Teh Ching chapter 1 opening lines are e.g. like this).

Edited November 8, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

Ju Que Zi asked Chang Wu Zi saying:

I've from our master heard this of a sage not following duty by doing his utmost:

Yes. That translation is consistent to the point I was making.

[ChiDragon]

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰： 「吾聞諸夫子，.....」

Ju Que Zi was asking Chang Wu Zi by saying: "I have heard it from the great teacher......"

 

1. Chang Wu Zi mentions Confucius using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.

 

2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is equal to Gongye Chang 公冶長, styled Zi-chang (al. Zi-zhi) 子長 (al. 子芝).

He was son-in-law to Confucius.

 

1. I am not sure about that: using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.

 

2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 was a disciple of Confucius. I am not sure about the son-in-law part...!!!

 

是黃帝之所聽熒也: Even Huang Di heard it and became vague,

而丘也何足以知之: Then how could Confucius be understood that.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

2. Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 was a disciple of Confucius. I am not sure about the son-in-law part...!!!

no. 1.16 on the list

 

 

1. I am not sure about that: using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.

Ju Que Zi asked using the respectful term 夫子 to name Confucius.

Chang Wu Zi answered using the personal name 丘也 to name Confucius.

 

Zhuangzi's agenda writing so is to guide the reader to identify the persons speaking,

which helps the reader to understand the hidden pointe connected with the two persons.

[ChiDragon]

Classic text

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰：「吾聞諸夫子，聖人不從事於務，不就利，不違害，不喜求，不緣道；無謂有謂，有謂無謂，而遊乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言，而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若？」

 

長梧子曰：「是黃帝之所聽熒也，而丘也何足以知之！且女亦大早計，見卵而求時夜，見彈而求鴞炙。

 

Modern interpretation

瞿鵲子向長梧子問道：「我從孔夫子那裡聽到這樣的談論：聖人不從事瑣細的事務，不追逐私利，不迴避災害，不喜好貪求，不因循成規；沒說什麼又好像說了些什麼，說了些什麼又好像什麼也沒有說，因而遨遊於世俗之外。孔夫子認為這些都是輕率不當的言論，而我卻認為是精妙之道的實踐和體現。先生你認為怎麼樣呢？」

 

長梧子說：「這些話黃帝也會疑惑不解的，而孔丘怎麼能夠知曉呢！而且你也謀慮得太早，就好像見到雞蛋便想立即得到報曉的公雞，見到彈子便想立即獲取烤熟的斑鳩肉。

 

English translation of the above interpretation

Ju Que Zi asked Chang Wu Zi and said: "I have heard this from Confucius's dialogue: A sage doesn't do anything that was trivial, he doesn't pursue personal gains; he doesn't evade adversity; he is not greedy; he doesn't make a habit become a rule; by not saying anything but it seems something has been said; by saying something but it seems like nothing has been said. Because of taking a journey outside of this world, Confucius thought these are flippant discourse, but I reckon that was the subtle practice and embodying. And Mr. what do you think...???"

 

Chang Wu Zi(長梧子) said: "These kind of thoughts even Huang Di was doubtful, then, how could Confucius know about this! And you are worrying about it too soon; it seems like when you see an egg and then immediately you want to go to inform the rooster; and when you see a spark of the fire then immediately you want to reach for the barbecued turtledove.

Edited November 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1. no. 1.16 on the list

 

2. Ju Que Zi asked using the respectful term 夫子 to name Confucius.

 

3. Chang Wu Zi answered using the personal name 丘也 to name Confucius.

 

4. Zhuangzi's agenda writing so is to guide the reader to identify the persons speaking,

which helps the reader to understand the hidden pointe connected with the two persons.

 

1. I cannot confirm that Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is the same person as Gongye Chang 公冶長 form the ref-site.

 

2. Yes, 夫子 was used short for Confucius(孔夫子).

 

3. 丘 is Confucius original name. The character 也 was used to emphasize that we are talking about him particularly. It was not used to relate him to a family member.

 

4. Sorry, this is not the way we do it in the Chinese language....

Edited November 8, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

3. 丘 is Confucius original name. The character 也 was used to emphasize that we are talking about him particularly.

is the 1200 BC oracle character meaning 'a hill or mound, big, elder, empty'

It developed into the modern chinese character 丘 and was too the name of Confucius.

Names were in classical chinese language marked with an added 也 character in texts.

Your 'emphasize' is the modern nowadays way of reading the 也 in chinese language.

 

Please remember ... Zhuangzi is not a daily newspaper but an ancient pre-Qin text

[ChiDragon]

is the 1200 BC oracle character meaning 'a hill or mound, big, elder, empty'

It developed into the modern chinese character 丘 and was too the name of Confucius.

Names were in classical chinese language marked with an added 也 character in texts.

Your 'emphasize' is the modern nowadays way of reading the 也 in chinese language.

 

Please remember ... Zhuangzi is not a daily newspaper but an ancient pre-Qin text

 

Thank you for reminding me(a stupid native) how to read pre-Qin text. ....

[lienshan]

Thank you for reminding me(a stupid native) how to read pre-Qin text. ....

Your knowledge of modern chinese is both an advantage and a disadvantage. But honestly:

This text is early Han language written like the Mawangdui versions of Tao Teh Ching.

But back to business:

 

Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her, she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept.

 

This little story inside the story relates to this confucian Analects text

 

Confucius choose the criminal Gong Ye Chang as husband to his daughter!

Confucius choose to believe that he was not guilty ...

 

I cannot at first sight see, what this little story has to do within the context?

So I view it as another hint to the identity of Zhuangzi's fictional Chang Wu Zi,

but you are maybe able to entlighten me?

[ChiDragon]

 

1. Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her, she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept.

 

This little story inside the story relates to this confucian Analects text

 

2. Confucius choose the criminal Gong Ye Chang as husband to his daughter!

Confucius choose to believe that he was not guilty ...

 

3. I cannot at first sight see, what this little story has to do within the context?

So I view it as another hint to the identity of Zhuangzi's fictional Chang Wu Zi,

but you are maybe able to enlighten me?

 

1. After Li Ji eating all the good foods on a comfortable bed in the palace, then she was wondering how silly she was crying so bad on the way to the palace.

 

2. Chang Wu Zi understood the bird language, he heard the birds said: "let's go eat the dead body under the tree by the river." Then Chang Wu Zi heard an old lady was crying while looking for her son. He told her that there is a body by the river. It was her son, but Chang Wu Zi was arrested for murdering her son. Later, he was exonerated because he proved himself to the officials that he heard that from the birds to locate the dead body. Confucius knew he was not guilty and a gentleman, thus Confucius was honored to have him as a son-in-law.

 

3. Zhuangzi was used the little story as an analogy for his next illustration:

Everybody is afraid of death, ZZ was wondering is there someone ever regret for what he had lived for after his death.

[ChiDragon]

Your knowledge of modern chinese is both an advantage and a disadvantage. But honestly:

This text is early Han language written like the Mawangdui versions of Tao Teh Ching.

 

ZhuangTze says: "Do not use your point of view to perceive the point of view of others." It was advisable to understand the person before making a judgment...

[dawei]

Ju Que Zi asked using the respectful term 夫子 to name Confucius.

Chang Wu Zi answered using the personal name 丘也 to name Confucius.

 

Chang Wu Zi mentions Confucius using his personal name 丘也 Qiu which marks a family relationship.

Chang Wu Zi 長梧子 is equal to Gongye Chang 公冶長, styled Zi-chang (al. Zi-zhi) 子長 (al. 子芝).

He was son-in-law to Confucius.

 

Not necessarily. Use of the personal name would also be a sign of disrespect... ZZ is the story-teller here, after-all.

 

But overall, very interesting info and possible connection. Thanks.

[lienshan]

There's something wrong with the translation of the first line of:

 

Li Ji was a daughter of the border Warden of Ai. When (the ruler of) the state of Jin first got possession of her,

she wept till the tears wetted all the front of her dress. But when she came to the place of the king, shared with him his luxurious couch, and ate his grain-and-grass-fed meat, then she regretted that she had wept.

 

麗之姬艾封人之子也 . 晉國之始得之也 ,

 

之 can like 也 mark a character as a name, so:

 

Li, the daughter of the border Warden Ji Ai, ... (the 也 nomilize a subordinate clause)

 

An alternative is a I Ching point of view because 麗 'the Clinging' is hexagram 30.

Hexagrams with changing lines were named: hexagram1 之 hexagram2

If e.g. hexagram Li has a changing 5th line, (麗之姬 or 麗之姬艾) then the linetext says:

 

Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting. Good fortune.

 

晉 is the name of hexagram 35 'Progress' or the name of the state Jin?

Seen from a grammatical point of view is 晉 the verb of the subject 麗

The two end characters 之也 was usual used to mark future tense of a preceeding verb (得),

so I do not feel comfortable with Legge's translation of this first part, while the last part seems OK?

 

Chang Wu Zi understood the bird language, he heard the birds said: "let's go eat the dead body under the tree by the river." Then Chang Wu Zi heard an old lady was crying while looking for her son. He told her that there is a body by the river. It was her son, but Chang Wu Zi was arrested for murdering her son. Later, he was exonerated because he proved himself to the officials that he heard that from the birds to locate the dead body. Confucius knew he was not guilty and a gentleman, thus Confucius was honored to have him as a son-in-law.

Li, the character of hexagram 30, shows a bird matching your 'bird language story'.

 

But why 'the state Jin' and not another state?

Jin was ruled by marquises but Zhuangzi titles the man as 'King'?

Edited November 9, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

[lienshan]

The state of Jin, 晉國, ... It was ruled by a king with a surname 姬.

 

Jin was not ruled by marquises ... 晉國 was ruled by 始.

List of Jin rulers

 

 

How did you translate 之子, the son of, to be a daughter...???

All translators ... Legge, Craham, Correa, Chen, Watson ... translates 'daughter of'.

 

 

I'd told you many times; the character 也 is an auxiliary word.

It was only used to enhance the weight of the phrase in classic text.

It does not have any significant meaning within context.

And my translation guru professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank has another opinion than you.

[lienshan]

麗之姬艾封人之子也

Li is the son of a feudal king.

One problem is the phrase 麗之姬 ???

麗姬 Li Ji occurs in the previous 'Nie Que asked Wang Ni story':

 

毛嬙 麗姬 人之所美 也 Mao Qiang and Li Ji were accounted by men to be most beautiful ...

 

And 麗姬 Li Ji occurs too in this not translated story but one line from it:

 

晉獻公伐虢 得麗姬 Jin offer Duke to stab Guo to get Ji Li

[ChiDragon]

List of Jin rulers

 

How did you translate 之子, the son of, to be a daughter...???

All translators ... Legge, Craham, Correa, Chen, Watson ... translates 'daughter of'.

 

I don't know who was copying whom. IMO They are in error.

子: son

女: daughter.

 

Please don't let these blind men lead you.

 

And my translation guru professor Edwin G. Pulleyblank has another opinion than you.

 

Sorry, I do regret that he is not thoroughly familiar with the language.

FYI...

王來: The king is coming.

王之來: The coming of the king; the purpose for the king's arrival.....was.....

Edited November 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

I don't know who was copying whom. IMO They are in error.

子: son

女: daughter.

Please don't let these blind men lead you.

My approach to this little story is, that it seems mistranslated by the 'blind men'

 

So I will follow your advice and reconsider 之子