Chuang Tzu Chapter 2, Section G

[dust]

I must look at the text, at least of the inner chapters, until I can find any reason not to, as if ZZ has something to say with everything he says. What I mean is, each passage has a meaning. If it didn't, why did he write it?

 

Even if a passage seems not to have a clear meaning, the meaning will come from what is not clear.

 

The passage is clearly about confusion of realities. I don't think this is in question: it says, directly, that ZZ didn't know if he was himself or a butterfly.

 

Whether we translate it as 'transformation', 'merging', 'separating', or even transformation as 'rebirth', we must come to a similar conclusion about his meaning: at the very least, that we are who we are, but we're also not as "me" as we think we are.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I know how it reads. It fails, in my mind, to satisfy any form of logic. That is why I am surprised that the question even needs be asked.

Please see post #73.

[Marblehead]

Please see post #73.

I did read that post. It didn't help much. We know what dreams are - our mind playing games. When we wake up we are supposed to put the dreams aside and get on with our life.

 

I have never wondered if I am a butterfly dreaming that I am Marblehead. One give-away is that butterflies don't smoke. What butterfly would dream of doing such a thing?

 

The point I am trying to make, and it really is the only point I want to make regarding this section is that we must be able to discern between our dreams, illusions, and delusions and recognize what is really important in our life.

 

Dreams are dreams. That's all. They are normally a very jumbled mess, just chemicals energizing various areas of our brain.

 

To wonder if I am anything other than what I am is simply a waste of time and energy.

[dust]

Part 1:

 

I wouldn't say it's about wondering "Hmm.. am I a butterfly today?"

 

By definition, no human is a butterfly. Like... no apple is a banana. Red is not yellow.

 

But apples grow, ripen, decay, merge back with the earth, and a part of each becomes a part of a banana.

 

We see this as obvious -- modern science has known this for a long time now -- but when ZZ was writing, was this common belief? Or something he might have tried to illustrate with such an analogy?

 

I think this is something he's trying to tell us. That we're all a part of the same 'system'. Apples, bananas, butterflies, humans... in the end, we're all just dust.

 

Except that he couldn't say it with modern 'scientific' language, because it didn't exist back then. And he was a cryptic S.O.B.

 

 

Part 2:

 

How do you know that you're not a butterfly dreaming that it's Marblehead?

The movies The Matrix and Fight Club explored similar ideas with some success;

 

The Matrix being an extension of the 'brain in a jar' thought experiment in popular philosophy; how do we know that our reality is 'true' reality?

 

Fight Club being a partial exploration of internal conflict and dual consciousness (as well as a bunch of other stuff); how do we know that we are who we think we are?

 

There are lots of cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder; less seriously, who hasn't at some point wondered what it would be like to be someone else, or an animal of some sort?

 

 

These are questions that have fascinated people for centuries; why should ZZ be any different?

[Marblehead]

I have grown tired of this conversation.

 

I know when I have been dreaming after I have woke up. That's good enough for me.

 

But true, Chuang Tzu might have been putting forth a novel concept of his time.

 

I have said enough.

[dust]

No prob. I have too, really...but I'm the type of dog who has a hard time releasing a bone.

 

Thanks for your input... & I hope this incessant theorizing hasn't ruined the passage for you...

[Marblehead]

No prob. I have too, really...but I'm the type of dog who has a hard time releasing a bone.

 

Thanks for your input... & I hope this incessant theorizing hasn't ruined the passage for you...

All is well. It is just that when I reach the point where I have nothing to say except to repeat what I have already said I feel it is time to shut my mouth.