lower dantian theory by Damo Mitchell

[konchog uma]

from Daoist Nei Gong by Damo Mitchell p.66, 67

 

"Many practitioners operate on the idea that we are tring to "store" qi within the lower dan tien when we practise internal arts. This actually goes against the teachings of daoism, which state that we should breathe in and out qi in the same way that we breathe in and out air. Qi that is created within the lower dan tien is stored within the congential meridians as part of a natural process over which we do not need conscious control. Attempting to "pack" qi into the lower abdomen will eventually just contribute to stagnation taking place which in turn slows the movement of the dan tien and causes the belly to swell. If you get the chance to visit one of the few daoist monasteries in china or taiwan that have not been repainted in recent years you will see that many of the statues have taiji symbols on their lower abdomen. This is demonstration of their attainment of a rotating lower energy centre."

 

 

that last part refers to the rotation of the dan tian on a horizontal axis, in line with the microcosmic orbit. Damo writes that the dan tians turn naturally, but that it is good to practice turning them, but like i said in the thread about the book itself, i don't want to get into explaining things im just learning... i posted this because 1. its the first i've ever seen this (maybe i've been reading the wrong books and studying under the wrong teachers but...) and 2. it rings REALLY true to me, like on a gut level, i really feel this is correct.

 

I feel like this is a pretty crucial part of "the puzzle"... anyone have any comments?

Edited October 30, 2011 by anamatva

[starhawk]

I suggest that it has to do with rotating the taiji. What is taiji made of? Where does it reside? Why should it rotate?

 

Food for thought. Say Qi! Qiiiiiise

[cheya]

 

 

from Daoist Nei Gong by Damo Mitchell p.66, 67

"...the teachings of daoism... state that we should breathe in and out qi in the same way that we breathe in and out air. "

Hi Anamatva,
Does Mitchell say more about breathing qi in and out the same way we breathe air?

Regarding the rotating dantien, the book Special Taoist Taiji Stick and Ruler Qigong seems to be about training dantien, which involves doing outer motions with the tai chi ruler and tai chi stick (bang) that entrain the movement of the dantien(s). Yang's Tai Chi Ball practice is also "training dantien". What's more, the dantien(s) rotate in different axes, not just the horizontal in an MCO orientation, but also vertical axis (belt channels) and spiraling as well. Does Mitchell talk about any other axes of rotation? Does his book go into methods of training dantien to rotate?

Great topic!
 

[konchog uma]

I suggest that it has to do with rotating the taiji. What is taiji made of? Where does it reside? Why should it rotate?

 

Food for thought. Say Qi! Qiiiiiise

 

I'm not sure i understand your questions, but i'll do my best to try to answer

 

taiji isn't a substance its a trancendental concept of nonduality. its made of yin and yang and the oneness of the unity thereof

 

it resides everywhere, its like a principle that is evidenced in its own way in all things

 

why should it rotate makes no sense to me... why should it not? everything rotates from atoms to planets to galaxies i don't see the sense in asking "why" things rotate, they just do. Or for a scientific take on things, centrifugal/centripedal force combined with gravity and momentum.

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva,

Does Mitchell say more about breathing qi in and out the same way we breathe air?

 

Regarding the rotating dantien, the book Special Taoist Taiji Stick and Ruler Qigong seems to be about training dantien, which involves doing outer motions with the tai chi ruler and tai chi stick (bang) that entrain the movement of the dantien(s). Yang's Tai Chi Ball practice is also "training dantien". What's more, the dantien(s) rotate in different axes, not just the horizontal in an MCO orientation, but also vertical axis (belt channels) and spiraling as well. Does Mitchell talk about any other axes of rotation? Does his book go into methods of training dantien to rotate?

 

Great topic!

Adeha

 

Thanks cheya, Mitchell doesn't give practices so far about How to breathe qi in and out, but 2 points to that

 

1. im only partially through the book

2. i think he's pointing less at a practice and more at a concept, which is don't "hoard" qi, or think poorly of letting it go, that would be like never breathing out.

 

theres probably a lot of practices to breathe different qis in and out in different ways. I practice bone breathing, which involves breathing bright radiant qi in and stagnant qi out, kinda like breathing air. I think thats a good maxim to follow, good in, bad out.

 

As to the rotation, he only really mentions the horizontal axis, but i think he is talking about it in reference to the microcosmic orbit. I also think he is saying that that is the Natural rotation of the dan tian, without any help from the conscious mind. It makes perfect sense that the dantian could rotate on the taiji pole or in any way the the intention and mind moved it. Its a vortex of energy that has boundaries but i've never heard of it being "fixed" on an axis. I think Damo is saying that moving it around with the orbit helps energy circulate, thats all. He doesn't mention any other rotations though (so far).

 

My girlfriend said that Mantak Chia mentions circulating the dan tian on a horizontal axis forwards and backwards nine times each and then letting the energies rest but I don't remember reading that. Then again, i don't really have a preference for Mantak Chia. She said she read that in one of his MCO writings, but she wasn't sure which one. Thats isn't very helpful, i'm aware, i just thought i would mention it in case it sparks anyone to clarify!

 

So far i haven't seen training of methods to rotate dan tian, but as it is a field/vortex of subtle energy, i think just using the minds visualization and the intention to do it kind of speaks for itself.

 

I hope that helps clarify, and i will post a link to the book on amazon so if you are interested you can buy it. Just talking about scholarly study (not practice), i have read a moderate amount of meditation and energy work material in my life, no expert, but not ignorant, and i do highly recommend this book as being helpful.

http://www.amazon.com/Daoist-Nei-Gong-Philosophical-Change/dp/1848190654/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320010213&sr=8-1

right now new copies are $16 and used start at $19 (huh?)

Edited October 30, 2011 by anamatva

[mjjbecker]

As I mentioned on another thread, a large part of Damo's training has been in the Hunyuan neigong and taijiquan of Feng Zhiqiang. It is therefore worth investigating Feng's information on neigong practice if you are looking for an actual method to do (I learned the method from several family members and a personal student of GM Feng-I have a basic understanding of them). I posted more about this on the other thread:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20003-daoist-nei-gong-the-philosophical-art-of-change/page__p__283642__fromsearch__1entry283642.

 

Feng is a lineage holder of Hu Yaozhen's neigong teachings. Hu was something of a legend in martial arts circles in the 20th century as well as being a great doctor of classical Chinese medicine ( do a search for previous threads on this). Hu was also the teacher of Wang Juemin, a famous neigong master who was considered by some as being the best healer in China in the latter part of the 20th century.

 

Wang Juemin taught Michael Lomax, who posts on this forum as Ya Mu. If you are looking to learn neigong from a master with demonstrable abilities (in a medical and spiritual manner-though I have no doubt it benefits martial artists, that is not Michael's focus), then I would strongly recommend attending one of Michael's courses.

 

Michael doesn't wax lyrical using assorted various Chinese terminology. He is perhaps the most remarkable healer I have met. Also, in my experience, Chinese masters that can actually DO these things emphasise training rather than talking theory.

 

As for 'packing' qi in the lower dantien. Packing, or compressing, qi in the dantien is within the Hunyuan neigong that Damo learned. It is not emphasised-not at initial stages anyhow-but it is there. It is certainly a part of valid methods. What he refers to as 'swelling' of the belly can be due to the physical change of the area due to the breathing exercises and other training used. Take a look at the famous picture of Dong Haichuan, the founder of Bagua. Different people with different physiology will look different-Yin Fu was known as 'thin Yin' but Dong, and Yin's top student-Ma Gui-were known to have solid physiques and thick trunks. Neither were deficient in ability, and the stories that are told regarding their neigong and esoteric abilities suggest their training was certainly effective. Yes, people can damage themselves due to incorrect practice, but just because a person looks a certain way does not mean that they have practiced incorrectly. Good instruction is fundamental to learning properly, especially given certain methods can be dangerous.

 

BTW, Feng Zhiqiang is a lineage holder of the ruler qigong method, as taught to him by Hu Yaozhen. The Hunyuan neigong set does not use specific controlled breathing-the breathing is allowed to go naturally with the exercises. What is important is intent. With correct practice of the exercises, the breathing will change without any deliberate effort, and the practitioner will experience the so called 'embryo' breathing. It is a result of the practice.

 

Personally I like the Stillness Movement neigong that Hu taught Wang Juemin, and which Michael Lomax now teaches. If you are looking for a profound energetic practice then this is that. It's effectiveness as a training method is demonstrated by the abilities of Michael's students that have applied themselves to the practice. You don't have to do the medical side if you choose not too, but the fact it has proved so effective demonstrates the real effectiveness of it.

[konchog uma]

Personally I like the Stillness Movement neigong that Hu taught Wang Juemin, and which Michael Lomax now teaches. If you are looking for a profound energetic practice then this is that. It's effectiveness as a training method is demonstrated by the abilities of Michael's students that have applied themselves to the practice. You don't have to do the medical side if you choose not too, but the fact it has proved so effective demonstrates the real effectiveness of it.

 

Thank you mjjbecker,

 

very informative, i appreciate your comments on packing qi into LDT. That helps me understand why it works when i do it. I also appreciate Michael Lomax, and just posted earlier today that it made me so happy to see the reports of the distance healing that he and his students are able to perform for people who are suffering. Really wonderful, and i'm sure i would benefit from studying it. Right now i am just learning my basic foundation, being a qigong & neigong beginner. So i appreciate all the feedback i can get! Thanks

[mjjbecker]

My pleasure and you are very welcome. We are all lucky to be able to find the information that is available these days. I remember starting out pre-internet and it was a very different story. Magazine articles and a few books from advertisers in them.

 

Historians talk about pre-historic times. I would not be surprised to see the reference to 'pre-internet' times in the future. Quite an epic shift in the history of mankind. This is truly the information age.

[joeblast]

I'm not sure i understand your questions, but i'll do my best to try to answer

 

taiji isn't a substance its a trancendental concept of nonduality. its made of yin and yang and the oneness of the unity thereof

 

it resides everywhere, its like a principle that is evidenced in its own way in all things

 

why should it rotate makes no sense to me... why should it not? everything rotates from atoms to planets to galaxies i don't see the sense in asking "why" things rotate, they just do. Or for a scientific take on things, centrifugal/centripedal force combined with gravity and momentum.

A similar thought occurred to me when studying black holes, the first ones theorized were of a non rotating character, which seemed absolutely absurd to me. Everything moves or rotates in some fashion or another, stasis is most unnatural and...rather devoid of life, it seems. I think if were talking Ian terms of flux density then that is another matter, but it is absolutely not a static thing. Conditioning the vessel for enhanced bandwitth so to speak is entirely different than trying to cram a ton of clothes into a suitcase, heh.

 

iPads are strange, Hawaii is beautiful

[konchog uma]

My pleasure and you are very welcome. We are all lucky to be able to find the information that is available these days. I remember starting out pre-internet and it was a very different story. Magazine articles and a few books from advertisers in them.

 

Historians talk about pre-historic times. I would not be surprised to see the reference to 'pre-internet' times in the future. Quite an epic shift in the history of mankind. This is truly the information age.

 

before the internet i ran a BBS and i thought it was amazing having a filebase of txt files full of information that was "rare" or "obscure" hahahaa now its everywhere

 

you are right, truly epic. Thanks for the reminder, its become so transparent that i forget to appreciate it some days

[konchog uma]

Conditioning the vessel for enhanced bandwitth so to speak is entirely different than trying to cram a ton of clothes into a suitcase, heh.

 

it took me a second to get my head around your analogy, but now i see it. nice point!

[寒月 Hanyue]

"store" qi within the lower dan tien"

"pack" qi into the lower abdomen"

"taiji symbols on their lower abdomen. This is demonstration of their attainment of a rotating lower energy centre."

 

ok so my penneth worth.

 

Basically the above three are discussing three separate but related things.

 

"Storing" qi is NOT the same as "packing" qi, as far as I understand from what I have been taught. This should be clarified as it seems this has been confused.

 

A certain well known and extremely prolific qigong author provided a definition and understanding of "packing" qi to the West that is not truly representative of the practice. The Chinese character means to create space so more can enter. This has a different feel to the English word to 'pack' which has the sense of to condense and squeeze in. As a result the idea of "packing" qi within qigong circles in the West has often led to incorrect and harmful practice as people think they have to force/contract/squeeze qi in to channels, cavities, dan's etc.

 

The character for store is again different (I have seen different ones used in different systems), and storing qi in the dantian is different to trying to "pack" qi anywhere. I have been taught methods that use aspects more associated with "packing" during the process of "storing" qi, and I have been taught methods that store with no sense of "packing" at all so to speak.

 

As for dantian rotation, I would say where is the attainment if these things are already rotating? The taiji symbolises the realisation of what was naturally happening and getting out of the way of that. The movement of qi in the dantian and the storage of qi through the dantian are again related but not mutually exlcusive. It is not a case of either or, it is a case of when is appropriate. The taiji is a clue.

 

As for 'packing' qi in the lower dantien. Packing, or compressing, qi in the dantien is within the Hunyuan neigong that Damo learned. It is not emphasised-not at initial stages anyhow-but it is there. It is certainly a part of valid methods.

 

My experience with this is limited and my thoughts those only of a beginner. It seems to me that the reasoning behind and the function of non-breathing and pressurising the abdomen is confusing and mis-leading. I think the emphasis on natural breathing before such practices is a wise progression indeed. Listening is indeed worthwhile.

 

Best regards,

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[konchog uma]

 

"Storing" qi is NOT the same as "packing" qi, as far as I understand from what I have been taught. This should be clarified as it seems this has been confused.

 

 

Hi snowmonki, thanks for your thoughts.

 

Very helpful insight into the idea of packing qi. As to the purpose of working with LDT rotations, i will only say the words of Damo since i don't know myself. He makes an analogy of a water wheel which drives the circulation of qi through the meridians and vessels, so as friend said, the natural rotation is slow, but one can increase circulation by rotating the LDT, and even "drive" the process of MCO by means of this rotation.

[mjjbecker]

 

It seems to me that the reasoning behind and the function of non-breathing and pressurising the abdomen is confusing and mis-leading. I think the emphasis on natural breathing before such practices is a wise progression indeed. Listening is indeed worthwhile.

 

 

Yes.

 

I don't think many sources-Chinese or Western-really understand this correctly. You need a teacher with verifiable qi. Anyone who talks from 'theory' alone, yet has no discernable qi, should not be claiming to teach these things. They don't have it and they don't understand it.

 

I'll explain which part and where in the Hunyuan neigong when I see you in January (I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the book but I haven't looked). It is, I stress, only a part of the practice, and done at the end of one exercise. This differs to methods where it is quite intensely done and for prolonged periods of time. Whether that is changed at more advanced levels I really couldn't say.

 

On a fundamental level, you need to have qi in the dantien before you can do anything with it.

[joeblast]

ok so my penneth worth.

 

Basically the above three are discussing three separate but related things.

 

"Storing" qi is NOT the same as "packing" qi, as far as I understand from what I have been taught. This should be clarified as it seems this has been confused.

 

A certain well known and extremely prolific qigong author provided a definition and understanding of "packing" qi to the West that is not truly representative of the practice. The Chinese character means to create space so more can enter. This has a different feel to the English word to 'pack' which has the sense of to condense and squeeze in. As a result the idea of "packing" qi within qigong circles in the West has often led to incorrect and harmful practice as people think they have to force/contract/squeeze qi in to channels, cavities, dan's etc.

 

The character for store is again different (I have seen different ones used in different systems), and storing qi in the dantian is different to trying to "pack" qi anywhere. I have been taught methods that use aspects more associated with "packing" during the process of "storing" qi, and I have been taught methods that store with no sense of "packing" at all so to speak.

 

As for dantian rotation, I would say where is the attainment if these things are already rotating? The taiji symbolises the realisation of what was naturally happening and getting out of the way of that. The movement of qi in the dantian and the storage of qi through the dantian are again related but not mutually exlcusive. It is not a case of either or, it is a case of when is appropriate. The taiji is a clue.

 

 

 

My experience with this is limited and my thoughts those only of a beginner. It seems to me that the reasoning behind and the function of non-breathing and pressurising the abdomen is confusing and mis-leading. I think the emphasis on natural breathing before such practices is a wise progression indeed. Listening is indeed worthwhile.

 

Best regards,

Emphasis first on natural breathing, absolutely. Path of least resistance. Stillness.

 

Rotation slowing, amplitude soars. Just like longevity breathing, lots of that extra energy goes to core processes.

 

 

This iPad is terrible at naviagating, too much text here to continue.

 

Speed slows down arcording the book. So slow that it does a rotation in 24 hours.

In the therory of the book it is to make the Water MCO move by the LDT.

So it is a attempt to speed up the Dantien rotation.

[Kali Yuga]

I would like to mention that in the Secret of the Golden Flower method reconstructed by J.J. Semple, he describes the first points of the practice as meditating and slowing down the breath (and thereby the consciousness). Somewhere along this point of continually slowing down the breath and enhancing awareness, a certain "flow" will be perceived within the dantien. JJ Semple emphasizes that once one person starts to feel and perceive this flow, one must use one's intention to change the rotation of the energy center to induce it to rotate towards the opposite direction to induce awakening of the energy dormant there.

 

I find this very interesting as it is supposed to be the precursor to a sensation of an "eggshell breaking" at your sacrum and the activation of one's kundalini.

 

It may not be exactly relevant to the discussion, yet it is an interesting coincidence nonetheless and his books are interesting reads.

[konchog uma]

It may not be exactly relevant to the discussion, yet it is an interesting coincidence nonetheless and his books are interesting reads.

 

That is cool, thanks.. i don't really care if the thread stays PRECISELY on topic, but thats just me. These things have a mind of their own!

 

I have been rotating the LDT forward (one rotation per in/out breath) with success. Hahah it made me poop! It feels nice, and I've been meaning to sit and do a wind channel meditation with backwards rotation of LDT but i haven't yet.

 

Damo writes that one needn't focus on all the meridians and channels to clear blockages that takes too long and is too involved for most people anyway. He says just turn the LDT and the energy will circulate vigorously through the system and clear obstructions. He gives a couple other "fulcrum" techniques where you just use one technique to affect the whole system. I have 5 pages left and then the Conclusion chapter to read.

 

I have realized that by studying meditation and working with orbits i have been doing qigong, and if nei gong is just internal work, then i have been doing nei gong too. But only little foundational stuff compared to the awesome amount of practices out there. So in a way i am beginner and in a way i am more experienced than that, but it doesnt matter, i only say that to give some idea where i am so when i say this book is totally awesome, you know where i am coming from. So that being said, this book is totally awesome, go read it. I think unless you are really advanced and open (in which case you will know that you don't need it) you should read it. It is really helping me.

 

Like the five virtues of the wu xing.. never heard that before! always knew about the 5 movements of energy and their emotional expressions but those can be converted or transmuted into 5 virtues expressions of the elements

 

element emotion virtue

`````````````````````````````````

fire mania/joy contentment

earth worry love/empathy

metal sadness courage/conviction

water fear/paranoia clarity

wood anger patience

 

he gives good instruction on how the heart-mind manifests both positively and negatively and what to do with those emotional vibrations in order to progress towards wholeness and even enlightenment. He is clear that he doesn't consider himself enlightened btw but he does talk about enlightenment a little. Oh well i'm cheerleading, hahaha i can see why Daniel Reid wrote the promo blurb on the back cover tho.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[EagleShen]

Re packing and non-packing, it's a case of Yin and Yang practice IMO.

 

The packing is a Yang approach, pushing energy into the LDT. The Yin approach is allowing the LDT to deepen so that it naturally stores more. Both methods would be employed in some training regimes.

 

Many leap straight for the Yang approach in the quest for results or internal power, and miss the deep wisdom of Yin cultivation.

Edited November 7, 2011 by EagleShen

[konchog uma]

Re packing and non-packing, it's a case of Yin and Yang practice IMO.

 

The packing is a Yang approach, pushing energy into the LDT. The Yin approach is allowing the LDT to deepen so that it naturally stores more. Both methods would be employed in some training regimes.

 

Many leap straight for the Yang approach in the quest for results or internal power, and miss the deep wisdom of Yin cultivation.

 

I think someone here said that the chinese character translated as "packing" was actually closer to "making space for more". It might have been from that book tho. Sorry i can't recall precisely.

[EagleShen]

I think someone here said that the chinese character translated as "packing" was actually closer to "making space for more". It might have been from that book tho. Sorry i can't recall precisely.

 

I like that, "making space for more", still there are Yin and Yang ways to do this, but this translation has at least a more neutral connotation than packing. Thanks.

[konchog uma]

I like that, "making space for more", still there are Yin and Yang ways to do this, but this translation has at least a more neutral connotation than packing. Thanks.

 

yeah i still totally forget where i heard this but "packing" is considered to be a westernism, not really true to the original spirit of it.

 

the method that works best for me to charge the LDT up is to picture myself in a field of white light, like a dimension of white light that exists everywhere but we can't see it with the physical eye (i love doing this). Sometimes i picture it nice and gentle, sometimes so bright its like a blinding awesomeness. Either way, i just picture a soft glow at my LDT of light golden color, and i don't really use effort, i just sort of get a feeling like the golden glow is like a piece of bread in a bowl of milk, just soaking it up. Not a complex technique but the crux of it is not using effort but taking a yin approach instead. I think Kostas Danaos <sp?> who wrote The Magus of Java said that the dan tian has no real limit to how much it can store.. and the 8 vessels store qi too, although i understand the amount they can hold is something you can exercise and flex over time its more set than the dan tian. I don't really understand cause i personally don't have that much juice. My dan tian gets buzzy and warmish and i just cycle it through my orbits and let it do what it does. I think qi naturally goes where it needs to, you don't need a map of the whole meridian system committed to memory using all kinds of complex intention or anything...

 

blah blah blah im rambling any feedback on all that is appreciated tho

[EagleShen]

Totally agree.

 

There is what i refer to as an 'effective philosophy'.

 

The effective philosophy of the yang approach of 'forcing' is that the body does not naturally cultivate, you have to make it. The effective philosophy of the Yin approach is the the body naturally cultivates, you just have to untrain what's in the way.

 

It's a far less perilous approach to err on the side of Yin, and to use Yang sparingly when it's most effective.

[Trunk]

+1

.. picture myself in a field of white light, like a dimension of white light that exists everywhere but we can't see it with the physical eye (i love doing this). Sometimes i picture it nice and gentle, sometimes so bright its like a blinding awesomeness. .. a soft glow at my LDT of light golden color, .. is like a piece of bread in a bowl of milk, just soaking it up.

Really like that description.

Helpful, too.