[Stigweard]

[Jetsun]

I think their "cultural reform" mostly just resulted in them cutting a load of their reality TV shows from prime time tv. Often what looks like religious revival is just tourism driven like at the Shaolin Temple, while in Tibet over ten monks have self immolated themselves this year alone in protest because things have actually got worse

[baiqi]

Very interesting article, thank you very much.

 

This is one of the reason I did not want to become a Daoshi (could have been!): I do not want any connection with the CCP, even by far.

Those people (the CCP, not the taoists) are a shame to Taoism, religious or not.

 

Taoism is about freedom and compassion, following nature. These concepts are completly unknown by the Chinese governmnent.

 

The incident with the 2 year old girl in Foshan is a consequence of their ruling, in my opinion.

 

I'm happy Taoism gets more important in China, but I'm also happy it grows out of control systems. Even it may be a bit chaotic.

[dawei]

IMO, this is nothing that unusual per se; the CCP tried to destroy anything of traditional value (including daoism and confucianism) to only turn around years later to embrace certain aspects of them. I do think it is more like a chess game where the central government wants to control what works or doesn't work for them in relation to their desire for 'social harmony'.

 

I don't see any type of moral decline; I often feel this is just a western view of china; they have a long history of few laws which can promote an 'anything goes attitude' and keeps people from getting involved in which we might think is the 'good thing to do'. The 2 year old girl issue is more complicated than just because of the rulers, it's history; people almost have a fear to help others.

 

I think their challenges are driven by western influence and how to keep the younger generation 'toeing the line'. The one child policy already changed some dynamics of the 'family' which has been the core cohesion in history; remember the government sees themself as part of this 'family' and they want to maintain that image.

 

They control over the internet is well known; control over TV is equally present but the fact is they still have much more openness on some of these issues than the west (ie: the few laws that exist leave wide gaps for other stuff).

 

I just think it is the CCP playing their next card.

[doc benway]

It's my (often inaccurate) opinion that leaders and governments concern themselves with one thing - maintenance of their power. Everything else is an means to achieve that.

 

China's government being genuinely concerned with morality?

 

About as sincere as the American religious right advocating rights for fetuses, then blowing up abortion clinics and advocating the death penalty and shock and awe bombing...

PUH-LEASE!

 

If they are concerning themselves with religion, you can be sure it is a means to a specific end, be it money or power.

[dawei]

It's my (often inaccurate) opinion that leaders and governments concern themselves with one thing - maintenance of their power. Everything else is an means to achieve that.

 

China's government being genuinely concerned with morality?

 

About as sincere as the American religious right advocating rights for fetuses, then blowing up abortion clinics and advocating the death penalty and shock and awe bombing...

PUH-LEASE!

 

If they are concerning themselves with religion, you can be sure it is a means to a specific end, be it money or power.

Most definitely !

 

Their history is one of isolationism; they define freedom as 'free from outside rule'... which leaves only one set of people the rulers can fear: Their own people

 

It should really come as no surprise that such a historical atmosphere produces a nation of 'followers' instead of free thinkers. Not that I am trying to degrade the former as somehow bad and the latter as the ideal. What works in the east does not work in the west; and what works in the west does not work in the east. Both sides will inevitably have their 'spin doctors' and their 'dog and pony show' for the masses.

[Aaron]

I might not agree with a lot of things that go on in China, but what I can see is that they were the first to try to deal with the population problem and people immediately attacked them because of it. I guess we're all so ingrained into believing that our system is the right system, that we forget that in some places people are happy with the way things are and just because a minority resists, doesn't mean that majority isn't happy.

 

I say let China be and worry about our own problems. If they want religion, let them have religion, if they don't then let them decide that as well. Who are we to stick our noses into another countries business? Especially if we're not asked!

 

I mean in forty years, when the population of the world has increased to 20 billion and the majority of people are living at the same poverty level as those in Mexico, do you think we'll still be complaining about China? No we'll be complaining because we had to dig through a garbage heap to find food or something to patch the roof of our hut, even as our neighbor's have lost their newborn child, because half of the children born die within the first year... If people understood how bleak the future actually is, I'm not talking conspiracy theory, global warming bleak, but actual figures and studies concerning sustainability, then perhaps they'd see why the rest of the world needs to catch up to China in some regards.

 

Aaron

[baiqi]

The 2 year old girl issue is more complicated than just because of the rulers, it's history; people almost have a fear to help others.

 

 

Yes, and...no

 

First, they don't ALMOST fear to help others, they are DEFINITLY scared to death to do so!!

 

It is a complex thing, I agree, but their political system does encourage this type of attitude. Explaining why here is a little bit hard.

 

At Twinner: you may be right, but in my case, China isn't a faraway country anymore. I know other coountries are worse, and we don't seem to bother so much, but...

I lived there, part of my family is there, and many things litteraly made me sick. Hard to let them go...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

When people are coerced to not think for themselves and to tow the party line, it would be difficult to then say "yeah, so we want you to deny your own humanity, and we'll act inhumanely if you don't, but really we want you to help other people (as long as we approve of the help, first)." That's not going to have much effect.

 

The top down effect of attitudes is really obvious in companies especially, where the shitty attitude of employees reflects the shitty attitude of the employer. The same goes with rulers. Look at the decline of honest business practices in the US when Bush and Cheney were in power. Everyone just said "oh, ok, George doesn't care, so we don't have to care." It was a clown show of corporate and systemic corruption.

 

If the CCP wants people to change, they have to show some change themselves. Especially after they've already terrified everyone to "toe the line, no matter where the CCP decides it is, including ratting out your family members for their political their opinions even though we will turn them into slaves indefinitely for thinking the wrong thing." An attitude like that is nihilistic -- life is nothing but a means to the collective end. This is where communism, and every dictatorship, fails "the people" inexcusably.

[Aaron]

The 2 year old girl issue is more complicated than just because of the rulers, it's history; people almost have a fear to help others.

 

 

Yes, and...no

 

First, they don't ALMOST fear to help others, they are DEFINITLY scared to death to do so!!

 

It is a complex thing, I agree, but their political system does encourage this type of attitude. Explaining why here is a little bit hard.

 

At Twinner: you may be right, but in my case, China isn't a faraway country anymore. I know other coountries are worse, and we don't seem to bother so much, but...

I lived there, part of my family is there, and many things litteraly made me sick. Hard to let them go...

 

 

My point isn't that it isn't bad or that it is, but rather that I have no business making that decision for China or involving myself in their issues. In my opinion, if we don't start worrying about our own country (or countries) and looking at the future, not just in the next ten years, but the next 50, then we're almost certainly dooming an entire generation to poverty and hardship. We are straining to provide for the people we have now, when we reach 10 million we'll begin to feel the pinch around the world, and that's not really that far ahead in the future. Change needs to happen and it needs to happen as soon as possible, but everyone seems to think we can stick our head in the sand and just ignore it, but that's not going to make it go away, it's just going to make it all that much more worse, because we're not even taking small cautionary steps towards this future, but rather running head long.

 

That's enough out of me. I'm hoping the young wake up, because the old don't seem to give a shit.

 

Aaron

[dawei]

If the CCP wants people to change, they have to show some change themselves. Especially after they've already terrified everyone to "toe the line, no matter where the CCP decides it is, including ratting out your family members for their political their opinions even though we will turn them into slaves indefinitely for thinking the wrong thing." An attitude like that is nihilistic -- life is nothing but a means to the collective end. This is where communism, and every dictatorship, fails "the people" inexcusably.

Already Terrified everyone? That's a bit sensationalism.

 

I've been to china 11 times across 6 years and in a dozen or two cities and never meet someone who felt terrified. Actually the only guy I know who was, was an American and that was because he could not 'work with the way things go'.

 

The penal system is unforgiving because it is more about retribution than reform (but anyone country which thinks going to jail is a valid form of reform is blind). This helps also towards keeping crime down in the largest country of the world where most police do NOT even wear guns. Guns just might scare the average person more than the CCP.

 

Many actually have no beef with the CCP and even admire Mao... so I think we should get a little more balanced perspective. It's not all peaches and cream in the US and a rotten batch of apples in China.

[Stigweard]

Already Terrified everyone? That's a bit sensationalism.

 

I've been to china 11 times across 6 years and in a dozen or two cities and never meet someone who felt terrified. Actually the only guy I know who was, was an American and that was because he could not 'work with the way things go'.

 

The penal system is unforgiving because it is more about retribution than reform (but anyone country which thinks going to jail is a valid form of reform is blind). This helps also towards keeping crime down in the largest country of the world where most police do NOT even wear guns. Guns just might scare the average person more than the CCP.

 

Many actually have no beef with the CCP and even admire Mao... so I think we should get a little more balanced perspective. It's not all peaches and cream in the US and a rotten batch of apples in China.

It's an interestingly mixed bag. Basically you can do whatever you damn well please as long as you don't cross the party line. But if you do then expect the wrath of Mao to descend up you and your family.

 

I had an interesting conversation with a Belgium chocolatier in Shang Hai (which is an interesting notion all on its own ... one of the best damn hot chocolates I have ever had mind you) and he said the way to get ahead in China is P.R.C. ... Patience, Relations, and Cash

 

He also made the comment that, regardless of all their failings, the PRC has still managed to steer 1.3 billion people toward being a world super-power.

 

The event I attended in Beijing was interesting in that the PRC has publicly thrown its weight behind orthodox Taoism with a heavy emphasis on both internal control and international promotion as a way of spreading Chinese culture throughout the world.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Already Terrified everyone? That's a bit sensationalism.

 

I've been to china 11 times across 6 years and in a dozen or two cities and never meet someone who felt terrified. Actually the only guy I know who was, was an American and that was because he could not 'work with the way things go'.

 

The penal system is unforgiving because it is more about retribution than reform (but anyone country which thinks going to jail is a valid form of reform is blind). This helps also towards keeping crime down in the largest country of the world where most police do NOT even wear guns. Guns just might scare the average person more than the CCP.

 

Many actually have no beef with the CCP and even admire Mao... so I think we should get a little more balanced perspective. It's not all peaches and cream in the US and a rotten batch of apples in China.

 

I know people don't walk around terrified all the time.. but the proof is in the pudding.. there are things you just don't read about, talk about, or waste your time thinking about.. freedoms are tied up very tight, and this has a trickle down effect on the humanity of the population... not everyone of course, don't get me wrong, but harshness breeds more harshness and the CCP is HARSH on whatever they decide to be "offenders." This excuses the same attitudes in the population.. That's just the nature of power, politics, and morale anywhere you go.

 

I realize there are more freedoms in other respects, like 24 hour markets, but the undertow of history and present day policies are obvious to some outsiders. How would I run a country the size of China? More people=more corruption.. Even the US would be impossible to clean up the air in politics.. no idea....

[manitou]

 

 

About as sincere as the American religious right advocating rights for fetuses, then blowing up abortion clinics and advocating the death penalty and shock and awe bombing...

PUH-LEASE!

 

 

ain't that the truth??? No reverence for the end of one's life (capital punishment) but plenty to say about the reverence of the fetus in someone else's womb.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Wow, china paints a pretty retarded self portrait.

 

To put it simply, whever there is governed population, there is corruption, mental illness, unnecessary disease, and immorality.

 

China, Afganistan, Somalia, Turkey, England, Brazil, U.S.A., it doesnt matter, it makes no difference, the PEOPLE will never be prosperous so long as they allow themselves to be governed, or think they must govern others.

 

They cant stop something popular from becoming... well... popular elsewhere.

 

 

True Taoism will remain, regardless of how thgey try to squelch it from the rest of the world, or their own country.

 

 

 

This world is, as always, headed straight down the drain.