In Tai Chi Chuan, Should the Body Be Integrated or Separated?

[Stigweard]

I recently had an eye-opening Facebook conversation in one of the Tai Chi groups about, In Tai Chi 'one part of the body moves, the whole body moves'.

 

There was an instant discrediting of the idea, with the counter claim if one part of the body moves all others must remain still; that the body should be separated into disconnected parts. That Tai Chi movements should be sequential, like ... foot moves, then waist, then upper torso, then arm etc ???

 

Read full article on "In Tai Chi Chuan, Should the Body Be Integrated or Separated?"

[Yuen Biao]

I believe how I was taught is definitely the 'integrated' approach.

 

The body moves from the dantien in a continuous wave opening and closing throughout the form. I was always told by my teacher that Taijiquan is one fluid movement; sure we learn it broken up into sections but once practised from memory it is ever-flowing.

[mYTHmAKER]

Everything moves if only one part moves.

Interesting example given in the article.

A bench press you only use your arms.This would be inefficient.

If i were to do a bench press I would push my feet into the floor and my body into the bench.

To me this would be if one part moves everything moves.

The other example of the bow stationary while only the arm moves is also misunderstood.

I anchor my feet, turn my waist for maximum ease and power. This would engage both arms. If i just move my arm again i

am weak, external and my arm gets tired.

This is true for all taiji styles. The principles are the same.

I must confess i only scanned the article.

A lot of this movement is internal and thus hidden so my guess is the person who

wrote the article is not there yet.

They might be confusing it with stillness in movement where one moves

with a still - quiet center. One maintains their center so they are centered - still while moving.

Edited November 2, 2011 by mYTHmAKER

[ChiDragon]

I believe, in Tia Chi, is how one applies the Yin-Yang concept. Yin is when the whole body doesn't move. Yang is when the whole body moves to support the movement of any body part. My basic understand was from the old saying and it applies to all Tai Chi practitioners.

 

靜如山，動如海

Still like a mountain, move like a sea.

"You don't move I don't move; but when you move I move first like the ocean waves."

 

I think it says all. Do we see anything that doesn't move when the ocean waves are moving...???

 

The concept of Tai Chi practice to have body coordination to support every move that the body moves to stay in balance. If the upper body moves and the lower doesn't, then the whole body is vulnerable to be off balanced. In push hand, the opponent definitely will take advantage of that.

[yangluchan]

I recently had an eye-opening Facebook conversation in one of the Tai Chi groups about, In Tai Chi 'one part of the body moves, the whole body moves'.

 

There was an instant discrediting of the idea, with the counter claim if one part of the body moves all others must remain still; that the body should be separated into disconnected parts. That Tai Chi movements should be sequential, like ... foot moves, then waist, then upper torso, then arm etc ???

 

Read full article on "In Tai Chi Chuan, Should the Body Be Integrated or Separated?"

 

 

If I may, I think this might be a misunderstanding?

 

I think they thought you meant "whole body moves" that everything moves instantenously, and I think what they are saying by "sequential" is that everything does not move at once, the wave is initated in the feet and travels upwards into the hands etc.

 

At least that's how I read this, you both mean the same thing? That no movement is generated in itself, the arm doesn't just move itself, it's moved by the movement of the whole body, but there is a slight delay, the wave is initiated in the feet and then moves the hand a split second later.

 

Just my two cents.

[Bubbles]

Hi Stigweard,

 

Taijiquan is Taijiquan be it Chen or Yang.

 

In The illustrated canon of Chen Family Taijiquan by Chen Xin, one can read p 215 that

 

"Hence to practice Taiji boxing successfully, you need to move all parts of the body simultaneously to gain an advantageous position in accord with your pulse and breath, using opening and closing"

 

The video of Chen Zhenglei you show in your article says it all.

 

Chen Xiaowang talks about the principles of movements (Yundong Guilu) as follow:

* Dantian is at the heart of body movement

* Once a part moves, the whole body moves

* Joint by joint energy threads through

* Thus the force transmits unimpeded in one action

 

 

The so called Chen stylists you refer to who advocate the contrary should go back to the basics.

Edited November 2, 2011 by bubbles

[Stigweard]

Cheers for the comments everyone.

 

@Yuen Biao -- Aye I was taught this way as well. Have never come across the whole "split up the body" concept so it was quite a surprise to see folks getting upset with integrated instruction o.O

 

@mYTHmAKER -- As always I am hearing you

 

@ChiDragon -- no doubt you like the idea of keep parts still whilst others are moving. And I am aware that it is the whole associations of Yin and Yang. It just seems to go against everything I have studied:

 

Shang xia xiang sui - Coordinate the upper and lower parts of the body. The T'ai Chi Ch'uan Classics say "the motion should be rooted in the feet, released through the legs, controlled by the waist and manifested through the fingers." Everything acts simultaneously. When the hand, waist and foot move together, the eyes follow. If one part doesn't follow, the whole body is disordered.

 

Xiang lian bu duan - Move with continuity. As to the external schools, their chin is the Latter Heaven brute chin. Therefore it is finite. There are connections and breaks. During the breaks the old force is exhausted and the new force has not yet been born. At these moments it is very easy for others to take advantage. T'ai Chi Ch'uan uses I and not li. From beginning to end it is continuous and not broken. It is circular and again resumes. It revolves and has no limits. The original Classics say it is "like a great river rolling on unceasingly." and that the circulation of the chin is "drawing silk from a cocoon " They all talk about being connected together.

 

RE: Yang's Ten Important Points

 

@yangluchan No misunderstanding that I can see. The idea of the whole body moving DOES mean that everything is moving simultaneously ... everything arrives at the same time NOT sequentially:

 

"One part moves, all parts move; one part stops, all parts stop" is the basis for chansijing (silk reeling). This is from Chen Xin's "Canon of Chen Family Taijiquan."

 

@bubbles I am hearing you and of course I agree ... thank you very much for the reference. Don't mind if I use it do you??

 

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

I dont do Taiji, I do other internal arts but all internal are usually the same in movement although each joint can be used separately to produce ging /fa jing, some use wave action, some use the whole body together depending on the move and the outcome you want when using it in fighting or push hands. I teach separately how the wave works and how the whole body as a structure, fighting and practice to me has more than one method of applying the power from the dan tian.

 

Sifu Garry

[Stigweard]

I dont do Taiji, I do other internal arts but all internal are usually the same in movement although each joint can be used separately to produce ging /fa jing, some use wave action, some use the whole body together depending on the move and the outcome you want when using it in fighting or push hands. I teach separately how the wave works and how the whole body as a structure, fighting and practice to me has more than one method of applying the power from the dan tian.

 

Sifu Garry

Thanks Garry for your balanced point of view

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

All hidden in the circle & squares...

[Bubbles]

 

@bubbles I am hearing you and of course I agree ... thank you very much for the reference. Don't mind if I use it do you??

 

 

Hey Stigweard, I am not Chen xin (too bad )!. So you are free to use it

[doc benway]

There is a one word answer to this question -

Integrated

It's that simple.

The person you were debating is mistaken and seems to be trying to force their practice to conform to an idea or theory.

[dwai]

I recently had an eye-opening Facebook conversation in one of the Tai Chi groups about, In Tai Chi 'one part of the body moves, the whole body moves'.

 

There was an instant discrediting of the idea, with the counter claim if one part of the body moves all others must remain still; that the body should be separated into disconnected parts. That Tai Chi movements should be sequential, like ... foot moves, then waist, then upper torso, then arm etc ???

 

Read full article on "In Tai Chi Chuan, Should the Body Be Integrated or Separated?"

 

I was taught that when the body moves, every part moves together. Whether they arrive in the same space-time is a different topic but the energy should feel like it's a whole.

 

There should be no separate hands, feet, head, neck and so on. My teacher says that all parts should be one and energy can be issued through any point in the body (during application).

 

Also, reading Yang Jwing Ming's book on Advanced Yang Applications, I found out that some other "external MA" such as White Crane or some Shaolin styles, do use localized jin (that is the jin is not driven by dan tien but by hand, shoulder, foot, etc). He also stresses that Jin in Taiji Chuan is driven from Dan Tien and that it integrates the whole body into one.

Edited November 3, 2011 by dwai

[ChiDragon]

I was taught that when the body moves, every part moves together. Whether they arrive in the same space-time is a different topic but the energy should feel like it's a whole.

 

There should be no separate hands, feet, head, neck and so on. My teacher says that all parts should be one and energy can be issued through any point in the body (during application).

 

I see you had been taught properly.

 

I don't know why this thread was initiated to ask this kind of question.

 

Why should there be any doubt if one was taught the right way...??? Learn the basic concept and stick to it then there should be no doubt.

Edited November 3, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Mattimo]

I think there may be a tendency to relate to principles of movement as being external to one's self - this is an error. The fundamental principle(s) of movement is/are not intellectual in nature but in fact are directly perceived or realized. The key is intention and the application and/or translation of minimal effort and the production of maximum physical force. This may be achieved through slow movement which will necessarily lead to the learning and/or realization of these mentioned principles - everything else is intellectual filler. Hopefully that makes sense.

[realfastcat]

All hidden in the circle & squares...

No triangles?

edit> to OP. In training I found it useful to move sequentially, especially early on. In a real situation, I would hope my body(all of it in unity),mind, spirit, focus,will,

would all arrive on scene in the same instant.

And yes a Wave will be delivered. I am not Tai Chi Chuan Player , but rather a Leopard/HsingYi Chuan

kind of guy. But as WBBM said, and I agree any Internal Martial Art will share much in common.

So, please forgive me chiming in about Tai Chi Chuan

as I have a very limited knowledge. But I do have to contend against Tai Chi Players from time to time.

Edited November 4, 2011 by realfastcat

[doc benway]

I recently had an eye-opening Facebook conversation in one of the Tai Chi groups about, In Tai Chi 'one part of the body moves, the whole body moves'.

 

There was an instant discrediting of the idea, with the counter claim if one part of the body moves all others must remain still; that the body should be separated into disconnected parts. That Tai Chi movements should be sequential, like ... foot moves, then waist, then upper torso, then arm etc ???

 

Read full article on "In Tai Chi Chuan, Should the Body Be Integrated or Separated?"

PS It occurs to me that the person you were debating has possibly not yet achieved the skill of being able to attend to the body and it's movement as a whole. He or she may be coming from a place where they can only put their Yi in one body part at a time and therefore must link them together sequentially. I remember that it took me a long time (5-6 years) to begin to understand whole body integration. I continue to work on developing that skill currently. Daoist meditation practice (and one internal exercise in particular) helped me in this area immeasurably.

[konchog uma]

PS It occurs to me that the person you were debating has possibly not yet achieved the skill of being able to attend to the body and it's movement as a whole. He or she may be coming from a place where they can only put their Yi in one body part at a time and therefore must link them together sequentially. I remember that it took me a long time (5-6 years) to begin to understand whole body integration. I continue to work on developing that skill currently. Daoist meditation practice (and one internal exercise in particular) helped me in this area immeasurably.

 

yeah. My first thought was that the person who tried to convince you of the seperation stig was just learning. Cause when you learn, you learn in a more seperated way. But when they progress to the point of martial application i guarantee they will integrate their movements into one thing

 

"wait my foot goes here then my arm..." *WAP!!*

[ChiDragon]

@ChiDragon -- no doubt you like the idea of keep parts still whilst others are moving. And I am aware that it is the whole associations of Yin and Yang. It just seems to go against everything I have studied:

 

I didn't say what was in bold. What I was saying is either all parts of the body are still or all moving.

[LBDaoist]

From the opening, to the closing, via everything in between should flow as a continuous movement. The trickiest part for me has been getting the breath to go along with the program. By that I mean, maintaining a single continuous breath that never fully exhales or fully inhales.

[ChiDragon]

By our natural breathing process, even thought we were fully exhale or inhale, there were still some residues of Oxygen and Carbon dioxide inside the body to keep the balance of the gaseous mixture in a proper proportion.

Edited November 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

From the opening, to the closing, via everything in between should flow as a continuous movement. The trickiest part for me has been getting the breath to go along with the program. By that I mean, maintaining a single continuous breath that never fully exhales or fully inhales.

I don't know if it would help and you may have already tried this, but allowing the breath to breathe itself without any contribution or interference from "me" can be a useful practice.