"Spirit" - what is it?

[al.]

This trinity system is different with counting system of Zhouyi (易經), the binary system.

The oldest records of this thrinity system is "Chon-Bu-Kyung" inscribed on the rock founded in Baekdoo mountain.

this trinity system and culture was originated from the cultural belt who lived north east asia people who had totemism of bear, three leg birds三足烏 , three Gods三神, heaven, earth, man.

 

 

and....

 

"Spirit"

 

....can't say simply in words.... : )

 

Thanks for sharing this! I had not heard of the "CHon-Bu-Kyung" before, very interesting. And three-legged birds!

 

A

[Birch]

Thanks for posting Noelle!

 

I have a banner from Nepal (via the US) that has 4 vajras (crown-looking things) of different colours that then spin (much like the 3 colours your video had) into those colours plus more much like the spin in your video. I've also seen the 'Tai-chi' with colours other than black and white. I don't know enough about those to comment.

 

Chi-dragon, I am suprised at you! I had you figured for a full-on materialist given all your talk about chi being 'air' and naught else. An interesting turn!

[noelle]

Thanks for sharing this! I had not heard of the "CHon-Bu-Kyung" before, very interesting. And three-legged birds!

 

Thanks for posting Noelle!

 

 

 

You're welcome.

 

"Chon-bu-kyung" is regarded as the oldest scriptures of ancient Korea.

The mordern China territory reaches to the far north - east area but ancient Chinese wanted to divide theselves with the people lived in Northern section of ancient Chaina.

 

 

This thrinity system affected China inland(ancient China below the great wall) as well later...

 

but China culture seem to be more under the the binary system than thrinity..

The three-legged bird also changed to two-legged bird in China...

 

One interesting stroy, Korea culture is still more affected under this thrinity sytem much more than binary...

so I had got the question from the company colleague in Hongkong why Korea companies prefered to issue commercial invoice 3, 6, 9 moths and he couldn't understand its reason. : )

Edited November 7, 2011 by noelle

[ChiDragon]

Chi-dragon, I am suprised at you! I had you figured for a full-on materialist given all your talk about chi being 'air' and naught else. An interesting turn!

 

Chi is 'air' to start with; but its phase changes at difference stages. IMO Chi does transform into energy only at the last stage. This is my sole belief. This belief gives me the positive spirit to defend any intruder who looked at it differently. However, I have been feeling that there is a strong negative spiritual force counteracting with my positive spiritual force. In the contrary, my positive spiritual force may be somebody else's negative opposing force.

 

 

Peace...!!!

[Taomeow]

I have been feeling that there is a strong negative spiritual force counteracting with my positive spiritual force.

 

Oh, good. You've discovered sex.

[Taomeow]

Great post TaoMeow!

Hehe, I've often wondered why some "spiritual" folks take up with the old-school language;-)

More seriously, IMO your post is very pointed in a direction that i find interesting.

 

My pleasure. It really happened, you know.

 

The Native American medicine man I mentioned told me a story of his own "spiritual mistake" that got me thinking too... He was on a boat in the ocean and started talking to some spirits and an aquatic animal showed up, so close that he was able to pet it! He was thrilled, and told some folks afterwards how he had a chance to stroke and pet a dolphin who responded to his call, and how much love and trust and a kind of kindred spirit was expressed and exchanged between them, mentioning among other things the sensations in his hand as he petted the dolphin -- the skin on its back was like sandpaper, he said, and the dolphin almost scraped off my palm in its exuberance of spirit... That's when someone told him, ...er... ...like sandpaper?.. -- that's not a dolphin, that's a shark. The dolphin's skin is smooth like silk to the touch. The shark's is like sandpaper.

 

I'm not sure I know what the moral of the story is, but knowing the guy, I can understand why he would spiritually relate to the shark but mistake it for a dolphin. I think it's a very common kind of spiritual self-misunderstanding.

[Birch]

My pleasure. It really happened, you know.

 

The Native American medicine man I mentioned told me a story of his own "spiritual mistake" that got me thinking too... He was on a boat in the ocean and started talking to some spirits and an aquatic animal showed up, so close that he was able to pet it! He was thrilled, and told some folks afterwards how he had a chance to stroke and pet a dolphin who responded to his call, and how much love and trust and a kind of kindred spirit was expressed and exchanged between them, mentioning among other things the sensations in his hand as he petted the dolphin -- the skin on its back was like sandpaper, he said, and the dolphin almost scraped off my palm in its exuberance of spirit... That's when someone told him, ...er... ...like sandpaper?.. -- that's not a dolphin, that's a shark. The dolphin's skin is smooth like silk to the touch. The shark's is like sandpaper.

 

I'm not sure I know what the moral of the story is, but knowing the guy, I can understand why he would spiritually relate to the shark but mistake it for a dolphin. I think it's a very common kind of spiritual self-misunderstanding.

 

Another great story! Seems today on the street that all manner of dogs had me labelled as cat food. Lucky (good name for a dog!) they were on leads and/or very small:-)

 

Being 'spiritually mistaken' is a pretty consistent fear of mine. What if I do end up to be one of those people that Ya Mu refers to as 'depends on who you are' who is categorically unable to progress in any useful (except to the wrong folks) manner??

 

What did the medicine man do/say after the shark issue was pointed out?

 

It ain't easy.

 

Oh yes, I forgot to add that the 'third' item being 'modified' is not fair play. Thanks again to Noelle :-)

[Todd]

Ok, story time. I'm gonna use some technical jargon, but in no way is this meant to be construed as coming from any great authority or depth of scholarship. I am only playing with some things in my head and in my body, and with anyone who happens to read this.

 

 

There are a couple characters in Chinese that are commonly associated with the English word "Spirit".

 

The first is 靈. It is pronounced "ling" with a rising tone. This is the modern traditional character, and it has three main parts. The top part, with the four horizontal lines at the bottom is the radical for rain. The three boxes in the middle indicate three open mouths. The bottom part is the character for shaman. I think of it as two shamans dancing to accomplish some "work", since it is made up of two people characters inside the character for "work" or "public". Overall the image is of shamans calling down the rain. Spirit in this case is the medium by which form influences the formless, and by which the formless in turn influences form, or perhaps more accurately, manifests as form. It speaks to resonance and response. It also speaks to something passing between worlds, as it is used in words for things like coffins and funerals. It also has a very lively character, and often is used to mean intelligence or cleverness, and is also used in the word for pliability and flexibility. Combined with a different character, it can mean "fairy, sprite, elf".

 

The second character, which is more commonly known here, is 神. Pronounced "shen", also with a rising tone. On the left side of the character is radical for an altar/ancestors/religion. On the right is the character for the 9th of the 12 earthly branches, which is where the 12 signs of the Chinese Zodiac come from. This branch is the "monkey" branch, which I find strangely appropriate. We have a monkey before an altar, and this expresses "spirit". So here we also have some of the meaning of communion with "unseen" forces. The "monkey" character also can mean "to stretch, extend, or express", so there is also an indication of the expression of spiritual force. Since the characters for "monkey" and "express" are the same, then monkey in a strange way, IS this expression, even as it engages in a mystery that is in many ways beyond it.

 

Common translations for this character are "God", "spirit", "miracle/miraculous", and in day to day usage, "general expression or appearance".

 

Another character that I have seen used here in reference to "spirit" is 魂. Pronounced "hun", also with a rising tone. In Chinese medical thought, the hun is one of the 5 "little shen" or "little spirits", that are each associated with one of the 5 viscera or solid organs. I feel that a better translation for this character than "spirit", which just confuses it with the two "spirits" above, is "ethereal soul". This is contrasted with 魄, "po" (with a falling tone), which can be translated as "corporeal soul". Both characters have the "ghost" radical on the right side of the character. On the left side of "hun" is the "cloud" radical, giving the association with both rising and heaven. On the left side of "po" is the "white" radical, which is the color associated with metal, whose movement is down, and which is associated with taking distinct form. Together, these two "souls" balance one another out. The "hun" rises up, while the "po" descends.

 

The "hun" partakes of the freedom of the more formless aspects of existence. It has a rather dreamy aspect, spinning images of possibility and potential, pulling stories out of the undifferentiated mass of potential to experience. It is associated with the ability to map out a "life story", and some say it is the part that continues to generate subsequent incarnations if such a thing occurs.

 

The "po" has no desire other than to be in form. It is what brings us into the here and now and allows the intimate, concrete experience of form. There is a way that it brings the energy of heaven down to love itself as form. There is the idea that this "soul" dies with the body, though I would suggest that this potential within the larger "spirit" is inherent.

 

Now there is a funny way that the "po" exists within the "hun" and the "hun" exists within the "po". The "hun" is constantly spinning images out of the formless, and in this way it manifests form. The more fully it dreams, the more real the forms appear. So the more fully in dances its freedom, the more it ties itself into the sort of form that we would expect the "po" to cling to. The "po" on the other hand constantly brings us to what is here. It does not shy away. This might seem to offer no freedom, but the more fully we arrive here, the more we encounter the true nature of form, which is "spirit". As we truly arrive here, all things regain their true freedom. It is as if as we enter more and more fully into here, we pop right into its nothingness.

 

So those are two of the five "little shen". There is a similar dynamic between "little spirit" (as opposed to "big spirit") and "will". And weaving its tendrils throughout it all is "intent". I won't get into that, since this is already a long post, but it is an important point that even though there are these sorts of divisions of "shen" into "little shen", that there is a way in which even the "little shen", with all of their peculiar and particular characteristics, are whole. The whole of the "big shen" can be found within any of them.

 

We cannot truly know this until we have encountered the "big shen", which is possible through any of the "little shen", or just through allowing the "big shen" to reveal itself. The tremendous wonder of the "big shen" is its intimacy with all of the "little shen". The "big shen" has so few qualities that it cannot even really be said to be the substance of the "little shen", and yet its character and the little shens' character is exactly the same. There is no "thing" there, and yet it allows, it IS, every possible "little shen", through and through. Thus, encountering the "big shen" is in many ways synonymous with encountering all of the "little shen". It happens in an instant, and it happens for eternity, as each "little shen" arises and passes away, and thus the question, "What is Shen?" never truly ends, even as it can be immediately answered without moving a finger or even thinking a thought, or through moving your finger and thinking a thought!

 

Of course, the five "little shen" is just one of infinite possible divisions of "big shen". Is it the mind or imagination that makes these divisions? In a way, but often they are also as real as the division between our hand and a cup that we are holding. Not ultimately real, but real enough to explore and enjoy and pay attention to.

 

Also "big shen" is really is misnomer. It might be better expressed as "most essential shen".

Edited November 13, 2011 by Todd

[Wuji108]

I differentiate between Qi and Spirit. If you look at the 3 treasures: Jing, Qi, Shen/essence,energy, spirit then the Jing is closest to physical, Qi to energy, and Shen to spirit or to the driver... We could use the car analogy to say that Jing is the car, Qi is the gasoline and Shen is the driver. The spirit is the source of intention...Intention is the source of manifestation. The pre-heaven spirit is also the thing that carries through life to life. The Jing and the Qi are exhaustible.

 

Then there is the post-heaven spirit - the ego, emotions and intelligence...

and the pre-heaven spirit - the intuition, the intention, the observer

 

Just a few thoughts...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

@ Todd

 

Thanks for writing that all out. Could you recommend any books that discuss more about shen(s) and how they interact? Also, if I may, where did you learn them? Thanks..

[Marblehead]

I differentiate between Qi and Spirit.

 

So do I. Your Qi is my universal Chi, and your Spirit is our personal Chi (including what I call our Life Energy).

[Wuji108]

@Todd

 

Thank you for laying all of this out...

[Todd]

@ HE and Wuji: You're welcome!

 

HE,

 

The only book that comes to mind at the moment is Rooted in Spirit. It is a discussion of Chapter 8 of the Lingshu (Spiritual Pivot), which is one of two main parts of the Huangdi Neijing, which is the foundational text for Chinese medicine. The Lingshu deals mostly with acupuncture. Chapter 8 of the Lingshu speaks of the 5 spirits and how they relate to well-being and health.

 

I have only read the translation of Chapter 8 in it and not the commentary, so can't comment on that. The translation, as with all translations, is not perfect. For example, "Qi" is pretty consistently translated as "Breath", and if you do not know what this refers to, then a layer of depth can be lost. There is a cool glossary in the back though, that seems to relate key terms back to the Chinese characters.

 

Where did I learn this? I can't say that I really did. I learned the names of the 5 spirits and some of their functions in TCM school. I also learned a whole net of associations there: for example, "po" is associated with the lung, which is associated with white, metal, downward and dispersing, 3-5am, pungent/spicy, the nose, smell, the skin, the meridians, harvest, fall, dryness, sorrow, etc... Most TCM texts will have lists like this. They may not make a lot of sense at first, or may seem very surface, but spending time with an awareness of them in life can reveal more depth.

 

The 5 spirits are intimately related to the 5 elements, and I met a Dr. in China who used a system rooted in this, and associated them strongly with movements of Qi. He also made a whole host of other associations, so my viewpoint has been strongly influenced by my experience with him.

 

The nature of Spirit itself is more of a personal experience thing, combined with some explorations of the Dao De Jing (love Red Pine's translation), lots of things here and there that I can't really recall specifically at the moment (though I am sure that Taomeow's sharings in the past have influenced me to some degree), and the teachings of Adyashanti as they relate to my experience.

 

What I shared was just a kind've playing with all this stuff evolving in my head and body, and spirit. Have fun with it, and never forget your direct experience. Its all there for us to play with, and there are whole other systems of ideas, so no need to take it too seriously. It can be a lot of fun though, and reveal neat stuff if we are interested.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2011 by Todd

[Todd]

Also, if you learn Chinese characters, especially if you break them down into component parts with their own meanings (which, in my opinion, is the best way to learn them), then there is a lot to be explored there.

[ChiDragon]

Hi Todd...

Thanks for introducing the four basic characters for the spiritual descriptions of "spirits". May I add some descriptions in a non-medical field but just for the daily usage in the Chinese language in expressing some kinds of spirits...???

 

There are other meanings for the following characters. Since this thread is about spirit, therefore, I will restrict myself to the definitions pertaining to spirits to avoid confusion. Thus I hope others and lienshan will do the same...

 

1. 靈(hun2): a spirit like a ghost or god in general.

2. 靈魂(ling2 hun2): a free spirit roaming outside of a body.

 

3. 魂魄(hun2 po4): a soul of the body.

4. 鬼魂(gui3 hun2): a spirit of a ghost

 

5. 鬼(gui3): a ghost

6. 神(shen2): a deity or spiritual god.

 

靈(ling): In General, the character by itself, it is just a spirit. It was used as compound with the character 魂. 靈魂(ling2 hun2) is a free roaming spirit. When the 魂魄(soul) left the body, it becomes a 靈魂(ling2 hun2) as a free roaming spirit without a body shell.

 

A 靈魂(ling2 hun2) is a ghost(鬼); a spirit of a ghost(鬼魂). However, 神(shen2) was not classified as a spirit because it is a deity which governs over the spirits. Normally, the term 神(shen2) was used more often by the Taoist religion while a Buddhist called his god as a Buddha. A Taoist may be cultivated to be an immortal then become a 神人(shen2 ren2). IMO a 神人 is a Taoist immortal who is in between god and human.

Edited November 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

And here's what a healthy Po looks like at the age of 117:

 

[lazy cloud]

@Todd and Wuji108

Isn't Ling the spirit of being which acts upon others?

Representing emotional comphrehension and understanding?

While alive it is your intelligence and wisdom, and when you die

it is the spirit of your ghost.

Ling Shen is "supernatural". Qi is the source that nourishes Ling.

Ling Qi is "super natural energy, power, or a force."

 

Ling Gen is the life and foundation of a spiritual being.

 

@realfastcat

The spirit of No-Thing-Ness means that there is no such thing as relying upon anything outside of your individual mind.

YOU are the spirit of the Thing Itself. Simply Be.

Edited November 13, 2011 by lazy cloud

[Informer]

Maybe someone could add Lu Zijan to the top of the wikki, it only goes to 115!

 

 

100 verified oldest men

 

Christian Mortensen

 

16 August 1882

 

25 April 1998

 

115 years, 252 days

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_the_verified_oldest_men&action=edit&section=1

[Small Fur]

To ask "What is spirit?" is like asking "What is tree?" or "What is human?". It is many things and yet it is also its own thing. One can describe its features, pointing to many aspects, but ultimately it is an experience in relationship.

 

My first answer is to consider that spirit, like any other form, has its own unique existence. Although it is abstract to the common sense perception- partly because it can appear somewhat translucent to the eye; it is in its own right, a type of substance (much like air bears its own particular quality of existence). Spirit then, is not 'just' a descriptor of qualities, an idea, or feeling, but it actually bears its own 'physical' form, as well.

 

Second, spirit is compromised of many diverse properties. Depending on the system through which you view it, the understanding varies, yet each provides insight and information about the multi-faceted composition of spirit. For instance, the question "What is tree?" to a physicist yields a different answer than if you were to ask the pagan or the biologist.

 

Accordingly, in the system of Chinese medicine, I refer you to the passage in Chapter 8 of the "Ling Shu" or "The Spiritual Pivot". The title of this chapter is "The Roots of Spirit". Qi Bo explains to Huang Di, "Heaven abides so that we have virtue. Earth abides so that we have qi. When virtue flows and qi is blended, there is life. Life comes from what is spoken of as the seminal essence. When two seminal essences strike each other, it is spoken of as the spirit." This is a foundational point to understanding the spirit nature in each visceral organ according to TCM and also as Todd described in his post. (You can follow up his post by learning about the properties of each spirit organ- its movements by pathway, through season, and in various states of condition as they affect your wellbeing by learning more about TCM theory.)

 

Another way to understand spirit is through the Ayurvedic medicine system that examines the relationship between core energy centers and subtle bodies that surround the body. In this system, spirit is an emanation of the energy fields stemming from the integrity of the 'sushumna', a central canal within the body (not dissimilar to the chong mai in TCM theory). The first, most outer layer that hovers above the skin is known as the 'etheric' body. This field is most closely related to our physical existence and acts as a bridge to our soul existence. It is also the body of our emotions, or what could be referred to more concretely as the 'mind-heart connection'.

 

As such, we can take the popular notions of spirit that refer to tone of character or ones unique personality to be part of the vibration that is ones spirit. So if I ask, "How is your spirit?" It is not necessary to consider it from a place of mind or project oneself via imagination (as you mentioned above), but rather to directly sense from a place of heart: heart which is, remember, home to both the small and big 'shen' [see Todd's post] that is attuned to the subtle ether body of your emotions. This is a concrete experience of spirit, like the breath of air, though for some not as readily visible to the common eye (note however, that it is possible to develop ones ability to 'see' spirit at a level that is as obvious to the eye as all common concrete things).

 

A simple way to state this is to say that when you feel your emotions thoroughly, you are experiencing your own spirit, which resides inside your body through the (meridian) channels that lead to your organs, and is also deep in the core of your body (sushumna) and emanates into the presentation of your 'aura'- eg. the aura of your smile, your warmth. These are direct and concrete experiences of spirit. Furthermore, the spirit of shen resides in the eye, and it is not uncommon that each of us can experience the 'light' that is in the spirit of the eyes.

 

This is just a starting point, of course, elementary and actually fairly vague to the complex nature of spirit. Just as any system, body, or being is not compromised only of discrete parts, and because vibrations have a tonal fluidity, there is a point where what I speak of evolves by melding to create more complex manifestations of spirit. Although one spirit may have origin through the visceral organ and energy center within the body, they are also their own body, and as such, the interaction of multiple aspects of spirit creates another field of spirit, so to speak, and now spirit becomes something 'greater'. Finally, this post also does not really address the movement of spirit in its fine details.

 

But really, all this would take tomes to write. :-) Hopefully, this small introduction gives a little food for thought to your excellent question on the mystery of spirit.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Small Fur

[Taomeow]

Nice contributions, guys/gals!

 

A simple way to state this is to say that when you feel your emotions thoroughly, you are experiencing your own spirit (...)

 

Very true. To this I would add that experiencing the whole of one's spirit -- one's ren, "humanness" -- encompasses deep and undistorted (not repressed and not chopped-up and not rationalized away and not stuck-in-a-rut and not stale and not forgotten) feelings, which are more than "emotions" and include sensations from the body, accurate perceptions of the outer environment, accurate perception of the interactions between the inner and outer environment, and many senses in addition to the "five" --

 

e.g. a sense of time, a sense of "propriety" of this or that choice of behavior at this time, territorial sense (home or not home, a place comfortable to be in or to be improved on or to get the hell out of, etc.), a sense of being or not being accepted and loved, a sense of the weather, a sense of nature, an understanding of other creatures (very important) and objects and events (some people know if the shoes on their own feet are too tight and that's where it ends, others know if the country is "too tight" and that's where it begins -- one could say that the first one has a "trapped" spirit that feels "trapped," and the second one, an "expanded" one which feels "trapped"), and on and on... The mind too -- the intellect too -- thinking is a form of feeling, which many don't know because of the overall spirit being in a chopped-up fragmented state. (The unification of thinking and feeling is a noble spiritual goal...)

 

As many other things taoism defines best via what they are not, the human spirit is not a state of bu ren -- "numbing out of one's humanness."

[9th]

I see your sadness like birds in the air... I see them all flying away..

 

- David Byrne

[Taomeow]

I see your sadness like birds in the air... I see them all flying away..

 

- David Byrne

 

[Birch]

" (The unification of thinking and feeling is a noble spiritual goal...) "

 

And so says Jung's commentary on the version of the Secret of the Golden Flower I'm presently reading.

 

In fact, many "things" are to be reunited "on the way" IMO/IME. Not reuniting them, having no conscious awareness of them may mean actual consequences IMO/IME. And I'm sure this way is advocated as "natural". And so it is, I guess. But then, I suppose in being natural I should just "flow" with all and anything that hithertonow I was unconscious/unaware of. What if a large percentage of the "stuff" I am unaware of is part of my life before I was born? I'm not even talking about past lives, I mean the flooding of my system with "whatever" because at one point my system was not "mine". My DNA is not mine and my economic circumstances at birth, yep, not mine. I was hoping that Spirit might be (mine).

[Informer]

" (The unification of thinking and feeling is a noble spiritual goal...) "

 

And so says Jung's commentary on the version of the Secret of the Golden Flower I'm presently reading.

 

In fact, many "things" are to be reunited "on the way" IMO/IME. Not reuniting them, having no conscious awareness of them may mean actual consequences IMO/IME. And I'm sure this way is advocated as "natural". And so it is, I guess. But then, I suppose in being natural I should just "flow" with all and anything that hithertonow I was unconscious/unaware of. What if a large percentage of the "stuff" I am unaware of is part of my life before I was born? I'm not even talking about past lives, I mean the flooding of my system with "whatever" because at one point my system was not "mine". My DNA is not mine and my economic circumstances at birth, yep, not mine. I was hoping that Spirit might be (mine).

 

I don't think the spirit is seperate from you to be yours.

[Marblehead]

I don't think the spirit is seperate from you ...

 

Agree. But in my understanding our soul can lose its connection with spirit. But spirit is always present to return to.