"Spirit" - what is it?

[suninmyeyes]

This will not answer the original post directly , maybe just give different point of view.

Where I am from it is common to talk of spirit/soul (they are the same word but spirit is duh (male) and soul is dusha(female)and can have slightly different usage) as a very alive part of us , without any spiritual/religous conotations whatsoever. It is just normal.

Something that is still a fabric of our culture. Most interesting thing is that people feel it and talk about it , but never think what are they actually saying, almost noone ever says what is spirit or I dont believe in spirit etc.when mentioned in common converstaions . Some do tend to avoid talking of it however and may consider it uncool for some reasons. Most have used it in conversation at least sometimes.

Even my hard core communist grandparents(who are no more) talked of soul.

It is quite common to hear people say things like: 'My spirit hurts today.'

or if in love you can say to another person : 'You are my spirit'.

or 'This has been done without any spirit' meaning carelessly and dry.

or 'I am running out of spirit' ,

Literal translation for example for mental illnes is 'dushevna bolest' meaning 'the illnes of the spirit/soul'.

Sometimes people talk to their spirit/soul for example:'My spirit/soul where do you want to go?'etc.

So when I was 18 and went to UK by myself for the first time (except for loving the country)I thought in my young mind - what a strange nation , where is their soul/spirit? In another words I could understand the language but not the attitude and social norms of the country.

 

And on topic ever fresh Mr. Manuva,

Let the spirit move you

Let the spirit soothe you

Let the spirit know you

 

PS nice theread and interesting posts

[suninmyeyes]

It just crossed my mind that this is a Taoist Discussion only and that maybe I shouldnt be posting undaoist stuff on here. Just thinking out loud , dont know how serious is this offence , if at all.

[Birch]

Yes I agree that there doesn't seem to be many references to soul in English today. Although is mentioned "being in good spirits", "high-spirited". As far as I can tell, "soul" in English is something that requires saving, preferably via religious mediation. Oh, wait, I recall references to "soul-destroying" meaning situations that suck the life from people. But whether people actually believe in spirits or soul seems to be a very personal thing, although i think it's been discouraged as part of the rationalism that the culture has gone through.

[Taomeow]

Yes I agree that there doesn't seem to be many references to soul in English today.

 

I think food references are used instead -- looks like words of love are all about a sugar rush. Sweetie, sugar, honey, for racial diversity brown sugar, chocolate, for an all-American set of values Miss American Pie, for complex carbs -- pumpkin...

 

The Chinese keep the spirit references close to the organs of residence of the five shens! It's not uncommon to hear "you are my heart and my liver" from a lover where we would only mention the heart, and I was just reading a Chinese novel where a protagonist who had tragically lost her family cries, "Oh my heart, oh my liver, oh my spleen, why have you abandoned me?"

[konchog uma]

It just crossed my mind that this is a Taoist Discussion only and that maybe I shouldnt be posting undaoist stuff on here. Just thinking out loud , dont know how serious is this offence , if at all.

 

your native concepts or roots manuva?!

 

 

edit: i think they are both daoist at heart

Edited November 23, 2011 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

in the (cough) spirit of spirit being something you can't describe you just have to witness for yourself, i hope this help you all. I think Junior IS a spirit cause people can't do that stuff man!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ammAU-RKDhs

 

edit: actually i'm serious, i think there is a highly cultivated shen involved in what he is doing

Edited November 23, 2011 by anamatva

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What it is...

 

 

Give it a few minutes for the vocal

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'll tell you, I had a musical epiphany at a drum circle once. There was this group of brothers (literally and figuratively) from Mali or Ivory Coast, I forget which one now, and they were putting on this show on the grass in a huge circle of people. Literally, they were just swaggering up behind each other and doing flips over each other, six feet in the air, and landing like they just hopped over a puddle. They just hopped and bounced and flipped over each other like basketballs, effortless.

 

Then they made pyramids, jumped over like 12 people in a row, stuff like that while the others played drums. What I realized is that they were able to bounce and jump and balance higher off of the drummers and the crowds energy. It was like they floated on the energy or something and you could feel it -- that if you let up in your energy they would fall or miss the jump a bit. When I was drumming later and they came by to mess around some more, it was really really obvious that the higher the energy was the higher they could go. That was some serious stuff. I'm thinking they must have come from some kind of secret African bird cult or something man, they were born in trees man I'm telling you... No gymnast does that so easily. These were tall dudes and they just flipped over each other like they were giving them a high five.. I'm getting pumped just thinking about it. Whoo!

 

edit to add:

Edited November 23, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Mokona]

I talk to everything. On occasion, they talk back.

 

A while ago, after reading up on some Native American rituals and talking to a there-and-back Native American medicine man (who was a medicine man turned aerospace engineer turned medicine man again), I decided to talk to some of the entities they talk to -- the Great Spirit, in particular. Timidly and tentatively, I explained I was not part of the tradition but was inspired by it, and valued this and that and cherished such and such and honored so and so, and so on. As I was getting really going with my monologue, all of a sudden the Great Spirit responded.

 

The Great Spirit asked me, in a tone of voice not so much offended as unmistakably sarcastic, "Hey! Why are you talking to me as though I'm retarded?.. Why are you talking to me in that new age parlance, with all those unimaginative cliches, why are you using someone else's words, boring words at that?.. and dumbed-down words at that?.. You are a poet and an intellectual -- why are you talking to me as though I'm someone who is beneath you poetically and intellectually, someone who can't get complex poetry and top-notch intelligence?.. I am, as you rightfully guessed, the Great Spirit, not the Great Spirit you were trying for, just the Great Spirit of California. Look around. You see this land I am the Great Spirit of? Look past what you people have done here, look at me. Do you see a Hollywood impersonator of the Great Spirit? Do you see a youtube video of the Great Spirit? Whose voice are you parroting when talking to me? I know it's not yours. Speak to me in your own voice, or not at all. Don't give me this hippie shit ever again, do you hear?.."

 

"Yes," I mumbled, stunned, feeling my face burn red with shame.

 

"High poetry, remember -- if you ever wish to talk to me again. I don't want to hear anything else. Over and out."

 

And just like that, the Great Spirit of California left me...

 

Now that's a great experience.

[Birch]

I think food references are used instead -- looks like words of love are all about a sugar rush. Sweetie, sugar, honey, for racial diversity brown sugar, chocolate, for an all-American set of values Miss American Pie, for complex carbs -- pumpkin...

 

The Chinese keep the spirit references close to the organs of residence of the five shens! It's not uncommon to hear "you are my heart and my liver" from a lover where we would only mention the heart, and I was just reading a Chinese novel where a protagonist who had tragically lost her family cries, "Oh my heart, oh my liver, oh my spleen, why have you abandoned me?"

Wow! Really cool insight TaoMeow!

Isn't sugar linked to the kidneys which are linked to sexual potency or something?

Cravings coming from the same place? So it's not like people aren't saying what they actually mean, huh?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

There is no longer any doubt in my mind about mind/body unity. Fine enough.

 

So, remains for me the issue of "spirit". I am currently finding myself unsatisfied by my own vague notions of "spirit" and i do not currently have experiences that i could point to with certainty and say "yes, this was spirit" rather than a type of consciousness or my imagination or ??

 

Perspectives?

 

 

Mind/body/emotion/spirit is our united being.

 

First 3, known, i assume.

 

Spirit is an avatar of the unity of the first three. It is, in essence, what we do. Think of it as being recorded onto film, everything we do is on that film, thus the film becomes our spirit, or perhaps merely entraps it, like framing a picture.

 

 

The aliveness of our being is our spirit. the interactions we have within our community, environment, and world are our spirit.

 

The spirit is an avatar, a representation of who and what we are, presented through what we do and how we interact with the universe in every way we do, conscious or not.

[Taomeow]

Wow! Really cool insight TaoMeow!

Isn't sugar linked to the kidneys which are linked to sexual potency or something?

Cravings coming from the same place? So it's not like people aren't saying what they actually mean, huh?

 

Oh, they are indeed saying what they mean, but it's something very funky if you look deeper into it...

 

The Five Tastes associated with the wuxing phases ("spirits" in their own right) of the Five Organs -- Salty (Kidneys), Sour (Liver), Bitter (Heart), Sweet (Spleen-Stomach) and Pungent (Lungs) -- are, as usual, all good in their right balanced proportions and not so healthy if deficient or excessive. Henry C. Lu (a translator of The Yellow Emperor's Classic and author of some of my favorite books on nutrition from TCM perspective) in his "Chinese Natural Cures" asserts that standard Western diets as we know them today massively undernourish the Heart -- we almost eat nothing bitter, unlike all traditional cultures -- while massively overnourishing the Stomach-Spleen -- with sweet stuff eaten in humongous excess. He further explains how exactly this throws everything else off balance healthwise, while I have my own thoughts in this respect in relation to love and the spirit of love.

 

The real taste of sexual attraction and the spirit of jing is Salty -- not excessively salty like commercial products, but precise-balance Salty like blood, tears, amniotic fluid, semen, the Kidney Yin/Kidney Yang fluids. The salt content of the amniotic fluid and tears is exactly the same as that of the ocean. This is the taste of primordial Xiantian love, we all come from the ocean, life on earth comes from the Water phase, from the Kidney qi, which is the first "translation" of jing into materiality. This taste is of primal, natural, all-encompassing love that is experienced by a fetus in the womb swimming in it, swallowing it, having it washed in with nourishment and growth and life with every heartbeat of the mother -- and this is the only "unconditional" love there is -- for any "conditions" imposed on it would terminate life. "Unconditional love" is an immersion, and its taste is salty.

 

Now the funky part. The Sweet taste is the taste of infancy. The mother's milk is sweet. Western civilization has destroyed the real close intimate relationship between the mother and the infant. Failure to breastfeed, failure to do it for an adequate period even if it does happen, failure to do it in a 'free access' fashion of natural humans and substituting schedules instead, failure to carry the baby on the mother's body (which satisfies the real, not Freudian-tales-derived, need for physical closeness in an infant which is not "sexual" except in the sick imaginations of sick deranged "authorities" but natural -- you develop your multiple senses, including the sense of competence in space, gravity, weight distribution, etc., from being carried like that -- continuously for the first year or two and on and off for up to four years in all natural cultures -- and in other species of primates, if the little one is deprived of it he or she grows up with impaired social behaviors, both males and females become either oversexed or afraid of sex, many become aggressive and abusive, and females are uniformly not interested in their motherly functions and abandon their infants.) So the funky part is, associating "sweet" with love and intimacy means sexualizing infantile drives, i.e. members of our culture, frustrated at the phase of infantile development due to a lack of "sweetness" they were supposed to get from the mother at this stage, with milk and "sweet baby love," never grow out of this stage.

 

The law of psychological development is ironclad -- any normal developmental stage that didn't happen at the allocated time will keep trying to happen, in a distorted-any-which-way fashion because its timing is now forever wrong, and consequently all its manifestations. No one can move on to the next stage who is busy re-representing the one that has been stunted -- in all new situations, that's what will try to unfold, while stunting the "next" developmental stage and the next after it. All of them. No human development of "full potential." No "fully human" humans. And all because no "fully human human infancy" has taken place.

 

So "sweet" love is a symptom of a major MAJOR major problem we as a society are having with love... Most people are emotionally stuck in infancy -- forever. The whole "baby," "honey," etc., hoopla is about "I couldn't get sweet love as a baby, so now I will lump it together with adult love and sexualize my baby needs for closeness and intimacy and try to get it this way." So, no real sex in this culture for most of its members. Only neurotic re-representations of frustrated early developmental needs onto the next developmental stage.

[Taomeow]

Now that's a great experience.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Taomeow, that's some very critical stuff you're talking about. I dont know much, but i do know that i classify to some extents as having been deprived as a child. to what extents, i am unsure, however, they can be overcome if it is recognized in the individual, over time, but it is not easy. by no measure can it be related to 'ease'.

 

The difficulty is great, regardless of what tools are available to aide you. I am lucky to have a "second family" that is presently helping me with a lot of personal progress, getting on my own two feet, and into college and the like, however, it makes no difference shortly, in that the effort put into letting go of what i needed but never had is mentally demanding and exhausting.

 

Without their help, i'd have quit on myself a long time ago. It's simply too hard. But it is also as unnatural as it is difficult. These are things that nu human should have to go through, but like all things, the harder the challenge, the greater the benefit in the result of success.

 

Even in spite of my losses as an baby/toddler, i have certain levels of mental and emotional maturity that people whom i know that had the 'sweet love' as infants and toddlers which they lack. It isnt a whole encompasment, but one of many ingredients in the development of the human being.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow, that's some very critical stuff you're talking about. I dont know much, but i do know that i classify to some extents as having been deprived as a child. to what extents, i am unsure, however, they can be overcome if it is recognized in the individual, over time, but it is not easy. by no measure can it be related to 'ease'.

 

The difficulty is great, regardless of what tools are available to aide you. I am lucky to have a "second family" that is presently helping me with a lot of personal progress, getting on my own two feet, and into college and the like, however, it makes no difference shortly, in that the effort put into letting go of what i needed but never had is mentally demanding and exhausting.

 

Without their help, i'd have quit on myself a long time ago. It's simply too hard. But it is also as unnatural as it is difficult. These are things that nu human should have to go through, but like all things, the harder the challenge, the greater the benefit in the result of success.

 

Even in spite of my losses as an baby/toddler, i have certain levels of mental and emotional maturity that people whom i know that had the 'sweet love' as infants and toddlers which they lack. It isnt a whole encompasment, but one of many ingredients in the development of the human being.

 

Oh, I agree, consciousness overcomes much -- taken to its full potential, perhaps all -- but consciousness has to be there, and stuff that is "heavy" and hard to accept into consciousness is hidden from it the deepest.

 

I think that, with the exception of extreme cases ("extremely abnormal" or "completely natural and normal" of which the first one is far more common than the second one), it's often impossible to tell who was deprived more than the next guy/gal, the external "markers" are not all that reliable. I do believe we as a society, culture, civilization have ALL been deprived of normal development -- to varying extents, from fairly "standard" to incompatible with survival (like abandoned babies who are not held at all and not shown any love -- orphanages personnel know by now that they die, even if they are fed adequately, they can't survive zero human closeness -- and those who are "handled" briefly do survive but their brains in adulthood weigh 2/3 of the brains of those who had more contact... and those who had full contact, in indigenous tribes still practicing it, provided there's no malnutrition offered in the same helping by OUR civilization taking charge of theirs, are at the level of our 4-year-olds developmentally at the age of nine months!) So I think it's both personal and universal, ontogenic and philogenic, and can ultimately be solved only on both levels... Some people make the mistake of "I'm OK, it's you who's in trouble" -- they can never be OK, just defensively equipped to turn consciousness down. We are all in trouble. Realizing that makes it both easier and harder to own up to "I am in trouble." But without such "ownership" there's no normalizing. The body, the mind, and the spirit all have to know they have been wounded in order to begin to heal.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

Hm, this is getting more involved by the letter...! lol you're right, without recognition of the self or the problems a self has, they cannot acknowledge their own responsibility thereof, and therefore never make any progress toward overcoming or improving their state of being, weather of mind or of emotion, body, or a mix thereof, including all 3... The Self Being cannot grow or improve without personal acknowledgment.

 

 

Hm, this is getting more involved by the letter...! lol you're right, without recognition of the self or the problems a self has, they we cannot acknowledge their our own responsibility thereof, and therefore never make any progress toward overcoming or improving their our state of being, weather of mind or of emotion, body, or a mix thereof, including all 3... The Self Being cannot grow or improve without personal acknowledgment.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[9th]

Hm, this is getting more involved by the letter...! lol you're right, without recognition of the self or the problems a self has, they we cannot acknowledge their our own responsibility thereof, and therefore never make any progress toward overcoming or improving their our state of being, weather of mind or of emotion, body, or a mix thereof, including all 3... The Self Being cannot grow or improve without personal acknowledgment.

 

fixed, according to your wishes

 

o master

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

You have done well my deciple, +4181 exp.

 

i've been playing too many videogames all this last month *sigh*

 

 

HAH, but you caught me there! i didnt even notice i did that Thanks for the revision XD

[9th]

Videogames are great fun, and I enjoy them as well. Longtime PC gamer here. I've got a PS3 but almost never use it. God of War 3 was quite the spectacle though.

 

edit: for the buddhist gamers out there:

 

Edited November 24, 2011 by 9th

[Birch]

Oh, I agree, consciousness overcomes much -- taken to its full potential, perhaps all -- but consciousness has to be there, and stuff that is "heavy" and hard to accept into consciousness is hidden from it the deepest.

 

I think that, with the exception of extreme cases ("extremely abnormal" or "completely natural and normal" of which the first one is far more common than the second one), it's often impossible to tell who was deprived more than the next guy/gal, the external "markers" are not all that reliable. I do believe we as a society, culture, civilization have ALL been deprived of normal development -- to varying extents, from fairly "standard" to incompatible with survival (like abandoned babies who are not held at all and not shown any love -- orphanages personnel know by now that they die, even if they are fed adequately, they can't survive zero human closeness -- and those who are "handled" briefly do survive but their brains in adulthood weigh 2/3 of the brains of those who had more contact... and those who had full contact, in indigenous tribes still practicing it, provided there's no malnutrition offered in the same helping by OUR civilization taking charge of theirs, are at the level of our 4-year-olds developmentally at the age of nine months!) So I think it's both personal and universal, ontogenic and philogenic, and can ultimately be solved only on both levels... Some people make the mistake of "I'm OK, it's you who's in trouble" -- they can never be OK, just defensively equipped to turn consciousness down. We are all in trouble. Realizing that makes it both easier and harder to own up to "I am in trouble." But without such "ownership" there's no normalizing. The body, the mind, and the spirit all have to know they have been wounded in order to begin to heal.

 

Yes I liked that idea of owning up. The idea about stages is a really interesting one too. I have an idea about resolution as well, but I suppose it could be seen through the lens of completion of "what's required" to get to the next step. Reckon our fear of aging is the realization that we will not actually have lived to adulthood? Not actually a fear of death.

[Taomeow]

Yes I liked that idea of owning up. The idea about stages is a really interesting one too. I have an idea about resolution as well, but I suppose it could be seen through the lens of completion of "what's required" to get to the next step. Reckon our fear of aging is the realization that we will not actually have lived to adulthood? Not actually a fear of death.

 

I think that's exactly what it is. Ours is the first culture on earth afraid of aging -- and for a damn good reason. Old people were honored and treated with great respect in all others -- "older" was indeed quite naturally associated with "wiser," and people welcomed rather than feared growing old, because that which lay ahead with old age was an attractive rather than an atrocious social proposition. There's a Chinese prayer that goes something like, "gods, let me see my hair turn white, let me see my teeth turn yellow and fall out, let me see my face crease with living, let me exchange my youthful vigor for the wisdom of old age."

 

"Botox" is "botulinum toxin," something that forms in canned (dead but preserved intact in this state) products. It's interesting that consumer demand for eternal youth is met with the industry's eager offer of mummification.

[9th]

It's interesting that consumer demand for eternal youth is met with the industry's eager offer of mummification.

 

What is the taoist demand for immortality met with?

[Taomeow]

What is the taoist demand for immortality met with?

 

The Pill.

 

Except you can't have a doctor prescribe it, you have to make it yourself.

[Marblehead]

The Pill.

 

Except you can't have a doctor prescribe it, you have to make it yourself.

 

Hehehe.

[9th]

Hehehe.

 

Thanks for joining the party!