Chuang Tzu Chapter 3, Section A

[Marblehead]

Section A

 

There is a limit to our life, but to knowledge there is no limit. With what is limited to pursue after what is unlimited is a perilous thing; and when, knowing this, we still seek the increase of our knowledge, the peril cannot be averted. There should not be the practice of what is good with any thought of the fame (which it will bring), nor of what is evil with any approximation to the punishment (which it will incur): an accordance with the Central Element (of our nature) is the regular way to preserve the body, to maintain the life, to nourish our parents, and to complete our term of years.

 

His cook was cutting up an ox for the ruler Wen Hui. Whenever he applied his hand, leaned forward with his shoulder, planted his foot, and employed the pressure of his knee, in the audible ripping off of the skin, and slicing operation of the knife, the sounds were all in regular cadence. Movements and sounds proceeded as in the dance of 'the Mulberry Forest' and the blended notes of the King Shou.' The ruler said, 'Ah! Admirable! That your art should have become so perfect!' (Having finished his operation), the cook laid down his knife, and replied to the remark, 'What your servant loves is the method of the Dao, something in advance of any art. When I first began to cut up an ox, I saw nothing but the (entire) carcase. After three years I ceased to see it as a whole. Now I deal with it in a spirit-like manner, and do not look at it with my eyes. The use of my senses is discarded, and my spirit acts as it wills. Observing the natural lines, (my knife) slips through the great crevices and slides through the great cavities, taking advantage of the facilities thus presented. My art avoids the membranous ligatures, and much more the great bones. A good cook changes his knife every year; (it may have been injured) in cutting - an ordinary cook changes his every month - (it may have been) broken. Now my knife has been in use for nineteen years; it has cut up several thousand oxen, and yet its edge is as sharp as if it had newly come from the whetstone. There are the interstices of the joints, and the edge of the knife has no (appreciable) thickness; when that which is so thin enters where the interstice is, how easily it moves along! The blade has more than room enough. Nevertheless, whenever I come to a complicated joint, and see that there will be some difficulty, I proceed anxiously and with caution, not allowing my eyes to wander from the place, and moving my hand slowly. Then by a very slight movement of the knife, the part is quickly separated, and drops like (a clod of) earth to the ground. Then standing up with the knife in my hand, I look all round, and in a leisurely manner, with an air of satisfaction, wipe it clean, and put it in its sheath.' The ruler Wen Hui said, 'Excellent! I have heard the words of my cook, and learned from them the nourishment of (our) life.'

[ChiDragon]

吾生也有涯，而知也無涯。以有涯隨無涯，殆已！已而為知者，殆而已矣！為善無近名，為惡無近刑，緣督以為經，可以保身，可以全生，可以養親，可以盡年。

 

One of the Chinese interpretations:

这句出自《庄子•内篇•养生主第三》

吾生也有涯①，而知②也无涯

①吾生也有涯——吾生，指人的生命。 ②知——知识。

全句话的意思是:人的生命是有限的，而知识是无穷的，以有限的生命去追求无穷的知识，就会搞得精疲力竭，既然如此，还去追求知识的人，就只能弄得疲困了。养生的人不做好事去追求名声，也不做坏事而触犯刑律，把顺着自然规律去做，做为处事的法则，就可以保护生命，保全天性，可以养护精神，享尽天的。

 

This seems like what it says by a direct interpretation:

The lives of the people are very limited; but the knowledge is endless. Using a limited life to pursue the endless knowledge, thus that would make one to become extremely fatigued. If that was so, then those who are still going to pursue knowledge will tire themselves out. Those ones who cultivate theirs lives to do good deeds not to be famous; and do not commit crimes to go against the law. They do things according to natural principles. Thus that can sustain life, keep everything to its natural characteristics; nourish the soul and spirit and lived for rest of the life.

 

Let's ask ourselves, is this what ZZ want to say and meant not to pursue knowledge due to one's short lifespan...??? I don't think that is what he was saying. It doesn't make any sense at all....

Edited November 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Let's ask ourselves, is this what ZZ want to say and meant not to pursue knowledge due to one's short lifespan...??? I don't think that is what he was saying. It doesn't make any sense at all....

 

No, I don't think that is what he was pointing at. More at, know when enough is enough. We need knowledge so that we can attain wisdom. But to constantly chase after anything will cause us anxiety and we will tire, possibly become sick because of it, etc, etc.

[ChiDragon]

No, I don't think that is what he was pointing at. More at, know when enough is enough. We need knowledge so that we can attain wisdom. But to constantly chase after anything will cause us anxiety and we will tire, possibly become sick because of it, etc, etc.

 

Yes...A reasonable point indeed.

 

There was this scholar spent two years and tried to come up with an interpretation which will make sense to him.

 

The lives of the people are limited; but the knowledge of desire is endless. Using a limited life to pursue the endless desire, thus how can one not to be exhausted. If one has already being sensing it was troublesome and still continue to be intrigued, then it would be very dangerous. It was because of the driven factor of desire, the action of the people will be out of control. Desire engenders the root of resentment. If one doesn't restrain one's crave and expect something in return from a good deed, then he should expect a punishment for committing a crime. People should stay at a distance from the crave and be very careful not to make any mistake as a matter of principle. Hence, it may protect oneself; it may be kept it natural; it may support their parents and it may enjoy one's life until death.

Edited November 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables"

 

 

Our lives are limited,

But knowledge is limitless.

To pursue the limitless

With the limited

Is dangerous.

 

Such being the case, if one still goes after knowledge,

One's life will definitely be in danger.

 

In doing good, approach not fame

In doing bad, approach not punishment.

Follow the central artery as conduit,

And you can preserve your body,

Maintain your life,

Nourish your inmost viscera,

And complete your allotted years.

 

 

 

 

A cook was cutting up an ox for Lord Wenhui.

Wherever

His hand touched,

His shoulder leaned,

His foot stepped,

His knee nudged,

the flesh would fall away with a swishing sound. Each slice of the

cleaver was right in tune, zip zap! He danced in rhythm to

"The Mulberry Grove" moved in concert with the strains of

"The Managing Chief."

"Ah, wonderful!" said Lord Wenhui, "that skill can attain

such heights!"

The cook put down his cleaver and responded, "What your

servant loves is the Way, which goes beyond mere skill. When I

first began to cut oxen, what I saw was nothing but whole oxen.

After three years, I no longer saw whole oxen . Today, I meet the

ox with my spirit rather than looking at it with my eyes. My

sense organs stop functioning and my spirit moves as it pleases.

In accord with the natural grain, I slice at the great crevices, lead

the blade through the great cavities. Following its inherent

structure, I never encounter the slightest obstacle even where the

veins and arteries come together or where the ligaments and

tendons join, much less from obvious big bones. A good cook

changes his cleaver once a year because he chops . An ordinary

cook changes his cleaver once a month because he hacks. Now

I've been using my cleaver for nineteen years and have cut up

thousands of oxen with it, but the blade is still as fresh as though

it had just come from the grindstone. Between the joints there

are spaces, but the edge of the blade has no thickness. Since I am

inserting something without any thickness into an empty space,

there will certainly be lots of room for the blade to play around

in. That's why the blade is still as fresh as though it had just come

from the grindstone . Nonetheless, whenever I come to a compli-

cated spot and see that it will be difficult to handle, I cautiously

restrain myself, focus my vision, and slow my motion. With an

imperceptible movement of the cleaver, plop! and the flesh is

already separated, like a clump of earth collapsing to the ground.

I stand there holding the cleaver in my hand, look all around me

with complacent satisfaction, then I wipe off the cleaver and

store it away!"

" Wonderful!" said Lord Wenhui. "From hearing the words

of the cook, I have learned how to nourish life!"

[ChiDragon]

Such being the case, if one still goes after knowledge,

One's life will definitely be in danger.

 

Is ZZ saying not to go to school to earn a degree to make a living...??

Is that dangerous...???

Edited November 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[XieJia]

No Zhuangzi didn't say that.

 

The thing about seeking is that the others (that is not sought) got neglected.

Like when sharing a dish in Eastern culture; one goes for only the meat.

One forgets about the other stuffs; i.e. vegetables, mushrooms and etc.

 

The life is limited, the principles of myriad things are unlimited.

This can be reference back to the previous chapter about the tailored bird and the mole.

We should took only what it needed and use them to nourish life.

[Protector]

Doesn't the cook section explain the first paragraph?

[XieJia]

Doesn't the cook section explain the first paragraph?

 

Yes, all life knows it.

But would the philosophers understand that?

 

Edited November 5, 2011 by XieJia

[Protector]

oh ok...

NEXT SECTION!!!

[ChiDragon]

No Zhuangzi didn't say that.

 

The thing about seeking is that the others (that is not sought) got neglected.

Like when sharing a dish in Eastern culture; one goes for only the meat.

One forgets about the other stuffs; i.e. vegetables, mushrooms and etc.

 

The life is limited, the principles of myriad things are unlimited.

This can be reference back to the previous chapter about the tailored bird and the mole.

We should took only what it needed and use them to nourish life.

 

What kind of explanation is this....???

[konchog uma]

What kind of explanation is this....???

 

i think its good that ZZ isn't easy to get in a heartbeat but you have to think about it a lot

 

We are limited, knowledge is not. So its like he is saying we can't know everything, its impossible. But people who know a lot inevitably think they know everything. He is saying, to me, that even thinking we know SOMEthing is fallacy, just be happy knowing what you know and don't chase knowledge like an addict, thats dangerous. Its dangerous because like any other addiction it will never really fulfill a person just drain them. I know i'm extrapolating, he doesn't mention addiction or anything, but that is my take on it all the same. In short, what we can know is next to nothing compared to all knowledge, so like he says in the second part of that section, just stay close to the center and don't lean to extremes, live simply and contentedly, thats worth more than thirst for knowledge.

 

i can't really improve on what he said with my own explanation, but he says it clear as day. I tried a little but probably just obscure the point more... maybe if you come back to it later it will just jump out at you!

 

[Marblehead]

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables"

 

Yeah, I like the way he handled this section better than I do Legge's. Better word choices, I think.

[Marblehead]

Another point to consider too, I think, is that in the story of the cook, he was an excellent butcherer of oxen. But ask him to build a cart and he would like be at a total loss.

 

Yes, we can gain knowledge, go to school and get a degree and a good job. No problem there, I think. It is when we constantly seek new knowledge, chasing after it as if we would be lost without this new knowledge, that we forget to live - to live naturally, to rest when the work is done. To sleep without dreams and wake without worries.

[konchog uma]

Another point to consider too, I think, is that in the story of the cook, he was an excellent butcherer of oxen. But ask him to build a cart and he would like be at a total loss.

 

Yes, we can gain knowledge, go to school and get a degree and a good job. No problem there, I think. It is when we constantly seek new knowledge, chasing after it as if we would be lost without this new knowledge, that we forget to live - to live naturally, to rest when the work is done. To sleep without dreams and wake without worries.

 

Right, the cook wasn't just some spiritual master at whatever he did, first he spent time looking at the ox with his eyes and cutting it like every other butcher, in other words he had training before it sunk in to the spiritual level. So everyone knows what they know, and they can know just enough and know it really well, but they can't know everything (or even come close). I think that is a key to contentment.

[ChiDragon]

There was this scholar spent two years and tried to come up with an interpretation which will make sense to him.

 

The lives of the people are limited; but the knowledge of desire is endless. Using a limited life to pursue the endless desire, thus how can one not to be exhausted. If one has already being sensing it was troublesome and still continue to be intrigued, then it would be very dangerous. It was because of the driven factor of desire, the action of the people will be out of control. Desire engenders the root of resentment. If one doesn't restrain one's crave and expect something in return from a good deed, then he should expect a punishment for committing a crime. People should stay at a distance from the crave and be very careful not to make any mistake as a matter of principle. Hence, it may protect oneself; it may be kept it natural; it may support their parents and it may enjoy one's life until death.

 

Yes, we can gain knowledge, go to school and get a degree and a good job. No problem there, I think. It is when we constantly seek new knowledge, chasing after it as if we would be lost without this new knowledge, that we forget to live - to live naturally, to rest when the work is done. To sleep without dreams and wake without worries.

 

People do get wiser as they have grown older because they had gained more knowledge and empirical experiences. Obtaining knowledge shouldn't be considered as dangerous. The way the classic text was phrased is very misleading; but, hey, that is one of those classic paradoxes again. It was up to the interpreter to make some sense out of it.

 

The people do not have a problem forgetting how the live. In fact, it was the problem with their knowledge of how to live with endless craves. IMO The metaphor here was that life is too short. It's better to learn as much as one can in life but do not take advantage of what one has learned for egocentricity...

Edited November 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The metaphor about the skilled cook was a ridicule about a cook that he is a better butcher than an actual one. ZhuangTze described that the cook was learned to butcher an ox from the basic technique. From the empirical experience, after nineteen years, the basic technique becomes an art how to butcher an ox. Hence, the cook was butchering an ox with the state of the art from his heart. He doesn't have to replace as many knives as other butchers because of his own cutting skill. He does not use his knife for chopping nor cut the bone with it. He knew exactly where to start cutting. He can visualize where every bone and joint are in the ox. He can have a smooth cut at the joint to separate the bones and the meat from the bones. When he was done with the butchering, there was nothing wasted.

 

This metaphor can be apply to one's life. If one has the heart into something, one can be as smooth as the skillful cook to handle any convoluted situation without any doubt.

Edited November 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Protector]

Funny how at the same time as we're discussing this, there's a thread about shen going on

[dawei]

the cook laid down his knife, and replied to the remark, 'What your servant loves is the method of the Dao, something in advance of any art.

 

Interesting that in the cooks own words, he describes it as the method of Dao but so far nobody has tied back the cook's Way to the great Way; it seems that the explanations are just study hard, gain knowledge from doing it and one day you will master it.

 

I recall the book, The Art of Archery in which a german man describes his experience going to Japan to study archery. One day he called his master and said, "look !" And then proceeded to get bullseye after bullseye... The master huffed away and stated he has produced nothing and was to leave the student. Of course, the german student was shocked since wasn't that the goal; to get bulleyes? Isn't it the goal just to cut through the meat and not waste knives? This is the kind of goal [seeking] which ZZ says is useless.

[Protector]

bla blah

This is the kind of goal [seeking] which ZZ says is useless.

 

ah ah ah we don't know anything about the cook or his goals

It is not dumb to seek endless knowledge,

because if you seek knowledge that's limited it's easy to reach your goal and you can never advance again

but good thing knowledge is limitless so we can always be happy

[Marblehead]

Interesting that in the cooks own words, he describes it as the method of Dao but so far nobody has tied back the cook's Way to the great Way; it seems that the explanations are just study hard, gain knowledge from doing it and one day you will master it.

 

I recall the book, The Art of Archery in which a german man describes his experience going to Japan to study archery. One day he called his master and said, "look !" And then proceeded to get bullseye after bullseye... The master huffed away and stated he has produced nothing and was to leave the student. Of course, the german student was shocked since wasn't that the goal; to get bulleyes? Isn't it the goal just to cut through the meat and not waste knives? This is the kind of goal [seeking] which ZZ says is useless.

 

Hi Dawei,

 

I am repeating your entire post because what you have said is valid up to the last sentence.

 

At first glance one would possibly agree with your conclusion. But I will suggest that we be cautious with making early assumptions.

[ChiDragon]

A skilled cook was slicing an ox but not chopping it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBX7ZmmRtx8&feature=related

[Marblehead]

A skilled cook was slicing an ox but not chopping it.

 

That cook sure has some big teeth.

 

There were a couple things I didn't understand. Well, actually, I didn't understand any of it but I understood all of it.

 

But then again ...

[Protector]

That video... was... all Chinese to me

[dust]

I looked this thread up because of some odd stuff I've been reading on the forum recently.

 

There seems to be some kind of weird superiority complex among many 'Taoists' on here.

Mighty Huns rising up in a dominant display of challenge-meeting and job-doing?

The best-educated of any generation?

If this is the Taoism, Taoism has nothing to do with LZ and ZZ. Almost everything they say is in direct opposition to these grand ideas about great power and knowledge.

 

 

 

Interesting that in the cooks own words, he describes it as the method of Dao but so far nobody has tied back the cook's Way to the great Way; it seems that the explanations are just study hard, gain knowledge from doing it and one day you will master it.

 

Yes. I was wondering if anyone had actually read the text. This chapter is not all that hard to comprehend. The translations are all pretty good.

 

 

 

"臣之所好者道也，進乎技矣"

"This servant cares only for the Way, which goes beyond skill"

 

"方今之時，臣以神遇，而不以目視，官知止而神欲行"

"These days, this servant is guided by his spirit, and not with his eyes; senses and knowledge cease, and the spirit moves as it will"

 

 

 

It's about going beyond skill; learning how to use one's intuition, one's entire being, to do something fully.

 

Any butcher with a knife can "get the job done" by hacking the carcass into pieces.

 

The cook is not concerned with getting the job done as much as doing the job.

 

It's the process that's important to him. He gets lost in it. It's a reconnection with the Way.

 

And when the process becomes the important thing, a good finished product is the inevitable result.