Chuang Tzu Chapter 3, Section A

[ChiDragon]

I looked this thread up because of some odd stuff I've been reading on the forum recently.

 

There seems to be some kind of weird superiority complex among many 'Taoists' on here.

Mighty Huns rising up in a dominant display of challenge-meeting and job-doing?

The best-educated of any generation?

 

If this is the Taoism, Taoism has nothing to do with LZ and ZZ. Almost everything they say is in direct opposition to these grand ideas about great power and knowledge.

 

While the site was developing, our minds were still young then. We are getting wiser as we get order and have more understanding about Tao. Unfortunately, we took a hard way to learn all these. I guess that was a natural process of learning. Some of us may become a Taoist by now but some are not.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

Welcome to the site, by the way, dusty....

Edited December 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

I looked this thread up because of some odd stuff I've been reading on the forum recently.

 

There seems to be some kind of weird superiority complex among many 'Taoists' on here.

Mighty Huns rising up in a dominant display of challenge-meeting and job-doing?

The best-educated of any generation?

 

If this is the Taoism, Taoism has nothing to do with LZ and ZZ. Almost everything they say is in direct opposition to these grand ideas about great power and knowledge.

 

'cultural colonialism' + 'wishful thinking'= 'fantasy of entitlement'

[dust]

我以后只要浏览 Taoist Textual Studies 了... 和其他人谈论这些事太TM费劲儿

Edited December 14, 2014 by dustybeijing

[ChiDragon]

我以后只要浏览 Taoist Textual Studies 了... 和其他人谈论这些事太TM费劲儿

 

No, please don't just browsing around. Then, it would be no fun without your contribution in the discussion.

[dust]

我说错了吧！

我的意思是只要在 TTS 和你们几个谈谈有关老子、庄子的事，不再参与别的讨论。不要浪费时间啦

 

我得多练习点儿，中文水平下降了

Edited December 14, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

I cannot agree with that.

[Daeluin]

Brook Ziporyn

 

 

The flow of my life is bound by its limits; the mind bent on knowledge, however, never is. If forced to follow something limited by no bounds, the bounded [current of life] is put in danger. And to meet this danger by enhancing knowledge even further -- that merely exacerbates the danger. What it does may be "good," but not to the point of bringing reputation. What it does may be "evil," but not to the point of bringing punishment. It tends toward the current of the central meridian as its normal course. And this is what enables us to maintain our bodies, to keep the life in them intact, to nourish those near and dear to us, and to fully live out our years.

 

 

The cook was carving up an ox or King Hui of Liang. Wherever his hand smacked it, wherever his shoulder leaned into it, wherever his foot braced it, wherever his knee pressed it, the thwacking tones of flesh falling from bone would echo, the knife would whiz through with its resonant thwing, each stroke ringing out the perfect note, attuned to the "Dance of the Mulberry Grove" or the "Jingshou Chorus" of the ancient sage-kings.

 

The king said, "Ah! It is wonderful that skill can reach such heights!"

 

The cook put down his knife and said, "What I love is the Course, something that advances beyond mere skill. When I first started cutting up oxen, all I looked at for three years was oxen, and yet still I was unable to see all there was to see in an ox. But now I encounter it with he spirit rather than scrutinizing it with the eyes. My understanding consciousness, beholden to its specific purposes, comes to a halt, and thus the promptings of the spirit begin to flow. I depend on Heaven's unwrought perforations and strike the larger gaps, following along with the broader hollows. I go by how they already are, playing them as they lay. So my knife has never had to cut through the knotted nodes where the warp hit the weave, much less the gnarled joints of bone. A good cook changes his blade once a year: he slices. An ordinary cook changes his blade once a month: he hacks. I have been using this same blade for nineteen years, cutting up thousands of oxen, and yet it is still as sharp as the day it came of the whetstone. For the joints have spaces within them and the very edge of the blade has no thickness at all. When what has no thickness enters into an empty space, it is vast and open, with more than enough room for the play of the blade. That is why my knife is still as sharp as if it had just come off the whetstone, even after nineteen years.

 

"Nonetheless, whenever I come to a clustered tangle, realizing that it is difficult to do anything about it, I instead restrain myself as if terrified, until my seeing comes to a complete halt. My activity slows, and the blade moves ever so slightly. Then all at once, I find the ox already dismembered at my feet like clumps of soil scattered on the ground. I retract the blade and stand there gazing at my work arrayed all around me, dawdling over it with satisfaction. Then I wipe off the blade and put it away."

 

The king said, "Wonderful! From hearing the cook's word I have learned how to nourish life!"

Edited December 24, 2014 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

Certainly, the cook was highly skilled. Yet in doing he did not use his knowledge, he opened to heavenly knowledge and flowed with spirit.

 

My understanding consciousness, beholden to its specific purposes, comes to a halt, and thus the promptings of the spirit begin to flow.

 

One might discern from this the cook understands the difference between his human mind and the "mind of tao" which is in communion with the knowledge of heaven.

 

Then he describes how when faced with tangles, doing is not his answer, but he withdraws and allows to an even greater extent, and allows the Course to flow imperceptibly, leaving him amazed by the power of the Tao.

 

Nourishing life may be done by way of allowing oneself to flow with the way, and the greater one trusts, the more can be accomplished. Why seek out knowledge when allowing produces results that meet all situations? Do nothing, and allow everything to be done.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Daeluin

[nestentrie]

The flow of my life is bound by its limits; the mind bent on knowledge, however, never is. If forced to follow something limited by no bounds, the bounded [current of life] is put in danger. And to meet this danger by enhancing knowledge even further -- that merely exacerbates the danger. What it does may be "good," but not to the point of bringing reputation. What it does may be "evil," but not to the point of bringing punishment. It tends toward the current of the central meridian as its normal course. And this is what enables us to maintain our bodies, to keep the life in them intact, to nourish those near and dear to us, and to fully live out our years.

 

 

I like this first part. Apprehension (a shade of terror), recognises that the ox was once a poweful beast capable of trampling and killing a man. The system of knots and cartilage represent the working system of that power. The butcher, apprehensive about what he wants, harmonises his own system (that is not entirely built for the purpose his mind has) with that of the ox. Amazingly, the Tao shows him what both his mind and body seemed not able to do together alone from Tao. Maybe it's magic, I dunno, but what else it has to say, namely about passions, is certainly cause for pause.

[dawei]

Certainly, the cook was highly skilled. Yet in doing he did not use his knowledge, he opened to heavenly knowledge and flowed with spirit.

 

One might discern from this the cook understands the difference between his human mind and the "mind of tao" which is in communion with the knowledge of heaven.

 

 

Have you ever truly experienced or connected to this?

[Taoist Texts]

Do nothing, and allow everything to be done.

except paying for groceries

[Marblehead]

except paying for groceries

Yeah, there are some things we have to do if we want to stay out of trouble.

[Daeluin]

 

Have you ever truly experienced or connected to this?

 

 

If this is going to be about me, I'll just be silent.

If something I say doesn't add up, clarifications are welcome!

[Daeluin]

except paying for groceries

 

I suppose I see non-doing as more of a free-fall, where one responds to prompts and allows flow with the current of one's way, but does not control where the current leads as much as possible. By all means one may take care of one's needs as one perceives them.

[dawei]

If this is going to be about me, I'll just be silent.

If something I say doesn't add up, clarifications are welcome!

 

Sorry... I was not picking on you... more curious... thread can carry on.

[Taoist Texts]

Brook Ziporyn

"Nonetheless, whenever I come to a clustered tangle, realizing that it is difficult to do anything about it, I instead restrain myself as if terrified, until my seeing comes to a complete halt. My activity slows, and the blade moves ever so slightly. Then all at once, I find the ox already dismembered at my feet like clumps of soil scattered on the ground. I retract the blade and stand there gazing at my work arrayed all around me, dawdling over it with satisfaction. Then I wipe off the blade and put it away."

 

The king said, "Wonderful! From hearing the cook's word I have learned how to nourish life!"

In this translation I do not understand the logic.

 

" I have learned how to nourish life!"

 

How exactly ?

[Daeluin]

My interpretation of this, is that the king's people are like the ox, and the king feels like the butcher. The people come to him to be "cut up", to have their problems sorted, their conflicts resolved. Often these conflicts are between multiple parties, all of whom are members of the kingdom.

 

Should the king chose one side over the other side, it is like damaging part of the ox in order to cut through a knot. And of course this also places extra pressure on the knife - the king, and the enforcers of the king's decisions.

 

But by learning to flow in complete harmony with the people, the king may dissolve conflict, negotiating even the most complex issues so that there are no losses and all are nourished in some way.

[dust]

In this translation I do not understand the logic.

 

" I have learned how to nourish life!"

 

How exactly ?

 

I'm not sure about this translation either

 

吾聞庖丁之言，得養生焉

 

养 = feed, raise, cultivate, maintain...a whole bunch of things. Originally to raise/herd sheep.

 

 

 

Have you ever truly experienced or connected to this?

 

I'm not particularly good at anything, but I know people, or have read things from people, who are.

 

I came across the works of a highly accomplished artist -- someone who produces stunning oil paintings with superb draughtsmanship and understanding of lighting, form, composition, etc -- who said that he spent years studying the old masters and practicing brushwork and everything else, but that when the time comes to actually paint, his challenge is to forget everything he's learned and paint from the heart.

 

I think this often happens to people by accident, and we forget how to recreate it. Those moments when we stop thinking and just do something, and it turns out better than we thought it possibly could. Because our thinking mind is holding us back.

[Marblehead]

In this translation I do not understand the logic.

 

" I have learned how to nourish life!"

 

How exactly ?

By not interfering with the natural flow of things as much as possible. (If the people are happy then leave them alone.)

[ChiDragon]

I'm not sure about this translation either

 

吾聞庖丁之言，得養生焉

 

养 = feed, raise, cultivate, maintain...a whole bunch of things. Originally to raise/herd sheep.

 

養生 is to keep oneself alive or maintain one's life in a healthy way.

[dawei]

By not interfering with the natural flow of things as much as possible. (If the people are happy then leave them alone.)

 

I think the idea of 'interference' often steps on it's own feet... as I would interpret your meaning to suggest that if they are NOT happy, then one should 'interfere' ... which goes against the first part.

[Daeluin]

I don't take "not interfering" to be the same as "avoiding things." Liu Yiming warns against escaping from the world, Zhuangzi suggests adapting to the world externally to preserve the internal, and the Zhouyi advises external flexibility and softness to preserve internal firmness. Laozi suggests being like the ocean or the earth, which allow their energy to be used knowing it will return; they work like a bellows, focused in one direction, inwards.

 

So I take not interfering to mean not interfering with the way. If events desire one's attention, one responds to them, leading them back to emptiness by yielding, suppleness, subtlety, compassion. The more one follows the way, the more synchronicities arise, and the more one becomes centered in the way, fully immersed in the current. When the current is strong and one's heart is merged with the tao, why would one interfere with where one is lead?

 

In the king's case, he is the fulcrum of the kingdom, and events of the kingdom converge upon him. If people are happy, the are less likely to be requesting changes; what reason to interfere? If the people are demanding change, then let there be change. But change often pleases some and displeases others - the trick is to apply the change so that it benefits all. This is the king's knot, and where the king may restrain myself as if terrified, until my seeing comes to a complete halt. My activity slows, and the blade moves ever so slightly. Then all at once the solution presents itself, and the way to maintain life in a healthy way is known.

[Marblehead]

I think the idea of 'interference' often steps on it's own feet... as I would interpret your meaning to suggest that if they are NOT happy, then one should 'interfere' ... which goes against the first part.

Nice to see you imagining me having said something. Hehehe.

 

But then, perhaps your point is valid.

 

If they are not happy it is likely that the government is interfering too much.

 

And then, it seems people need governments and religions to tell them what to do. Seems that if the people aren't happy then the government isn't doing enough to ensure their happiness. Same with religions.

 

People need to have leaders to blame problems on. Religions created a devil for that purpose.

 

I don't know. Maybe interfering is a part of human nature.

[dust]

People need to have leaders to blame problems on. Religions created a devil for that purpose.

 

I don't know. Maybe interfering is a part of human nature.

 

In my opinion, there's no "maybe" about it

[Marblehead]

In my opinion, there's no "maybe" about it

I wasn't expecting such strong agreement so soon after my post.