Chuang Tzu Chapter 3, Section A

[Daeluin]

I don't know. Maybe interfering is a part of human nature.

 

I think interfering is part of nature, part of post-heaven interactions, where energies mate with each other to create new things.

 

But usually these ecosystems also find balance.

 

Humanity became so skilled in interference that it quickly broke apart the natural systems of balance, and attempts to self-balance, but doesn't really have a clue.

[dawei]

I think interfering is part of nature, part of post-heaven interactions, where energies mate with each other to create new things.

 

But usually these ecosystems also find balance.

 

Humanity became so skilled in interference that it quickly broke apart the natural systems of balance, and attempts to self-balance, but doesn't really have a clue.

 

B-I-N-G-O

 

Nature itself has constantly re-balanced from its inception... if anyone would just read the archaeological accounts.... what is in the north is now only in the south... past rivers are deserts; past cities are buried in water.

 

Interference is a given.... and necessary part of life.

 

The Way is also a Way of Interference.

[Yasjua]

Another point to consider too, I think, is that in the story of the cook, he was an excellent butcherer of oxen. But ask him to build a cart and he would like be at a total loss.

 

Yes, we can gain knowledge, go to school and get a degree and a good job. No problem there, I think. It is when we constantly seek new knowledge, chasing after it as if we would be lost without this new knowledge, that we forget to live - to live naturally, to rest when the work is done. To sleep without dreams and wake without worries.

This is so helpful for me to read. Thank you.

[Taoist Texts]

 

Interesting that in the cooks own words, he describes it as the method of Dao but so far nobody has tied back the cook's Way to the great Way; it seems that the explanations are just study hard, gain knowledge from doing it and one day you will master it.

 

I recall the book, The Art of Archery in which a german man d

you gonna enjoy this;)

 

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2726

[Taoist Texts]

By not interfering with the natural flow of things as much as possible. (If the people are happy then leave them alone.)

hmm...cutting the entire carcass into small bits is not interfering? i donno about that.

[Marblehead]

Well, yeah, I suppose the cow was not very happy having its life terminated prematurely.

 

And sure, the cow's life was interfered with.

 

Now, as we have already killed the cow so that we can eat it, I doubt any of us would want to eat it raw (uncooked).

 

Therefore the cow must be cut into small bits.

 

How do we cut up the cow so that the pieces will fit into the oven?

 

We cut along the joints, avoiding the bones. Trying to cut the bones would be interfering with the physical structure of the animal.

 

We know where to cut because there is a naturalness to all cows. Their skeletal structure are all the same. That is the nature of the cow.

 

Have we interfered? Of course we have. Had we not the cow would still be alive. But we have to eat.

 

And after the people have eaten their fill they will be happy so leave them alone.

[Taoist Texts]

thats all good. i just feel that people curiously miss the point of this story and i was always interested where the blind spot is cognitively speaking.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, my understandings alter from time to time as well, even in my old age.

 

It wasn't too long ago I recommended to ChiDragon that he forget about his "non-interference" when talking about the concept of "Wu Wei".

 

We are going to interfere; that's a part of "our" nature, I think.

[ChiDragon]

Yeah, my understandings alter from time to time as well, even in my old age.

 

It wasn't too long ago I recommended to ChiDragon that he forget about his "non-interference" when talking about the concept of "Wu Wei".

 

We are going to interfere; that's a part of "our" nature, I think.

 

There is still something missing either on your pat or mine. Your recommendation is interfering my process of WuWei. However, I will hold to it so that will not be interfered.

 

If "non-interference" was not the whole concept behind the philosophy of Wu Wei, otherwise, the TTC wouldn't have had been written. Of course, we will interfere in lots of ways. We can make things better or worse. Interfering by making things better does not apply to the concept of Wu Wei because it caused no harm. Making things worse is causing harm which is not Wu Wei. So far, I haven't encountered anyone who has a thorough understand the concept of Wu Wei. Sigh....!!!

 

What is the point in discussing the principles in the TTC without knowing the most basic fundamental concept of WU Wei to begin with....??? Needless to say, it seems to me that we cannot have this minor issue resolved for sometime. Thus I think I am no longer needed to participate in any further discussion. Our thoughts are just not synchronized. I will let you people have it your way.

 

PS.....

I will continue to finish the translation of the chapters in the TTC section.

Edited January 3, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

There is still something missing either on your part or mine.

Well, sure, I understand the concept. I even agreed with you regarding non-interference for a while. But I cannot suggest that I follow the way of Wu Wei if I am understood to be saying that I do not interfere with the flow of cause and effect.

 

I still agree with your "harm none" thought. I have no problem with that. "Harm none" is a good creed.

 

Please don't be upset just because I can't agree with the other concept any more.

[ChiDragon]

Well, sure, I understand the concept. I even agreed with you regarding non-interference for a while. But I cannot suggest that I follow the way of Wu Wei if I am understood to be saying that I do not interfere with the flow of cause and effect.

 

I still agree with your "harm none" thought. I have no problem with that. "Harm none" is a good creed.

 

Thank you! Just between you and me. I just want to be known that I only refer to the negated part of the definition of Wu Wei when I interpret the TTC. The result of the negated part which made Wu Wei positive.

It is not an either or situation in the case. Thus I would like to keep it as pure as possible in my thoughts.

 

I will always kept in mind to save the drowning baby in the river......

 

 

Note:

The either or situation I am referring to.....

Wu Wei is non-doing.

Wu Wei is not doing anything to cause harm.

 

The former means doing nothing at all make no sense to me. The latter is the only definition I will go by to maintain the consistency throughout the TTC.

 

Edited January 4, 2015 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Back to topic please... Chuang Tzu Chapter 3, Section A

 

Take up Wu Wei bickering in a Wu Wei thread.

[Daeluin]

It begins with doing and hardly can one see a thing,

when it comes to non-doing, all begin to understand.

But if you only see non-doing as the essential marvel,

how can you know that doing is the foundation?

 

Awakening to Reality

 

Wuwei is a method, a choice. Choices make change, choices are part of the doing that is the foundation of non-doing. Being a cook was the Cook's doing and he used non-doing to nurture this purpose. Ruling was the king's doing and he saw how non-doing might help nurture the life of his kingdom. Selfish interference is humanity's doing and could use non-doing to settle into harmonious relationship with other life-forms. Living is a taoist's doing, and a taoist uses non-doing to return from duality. But still choices, still change.

[Daeluin]

Back to topic please... Chuang Tzu Chapter 3, Section A

 

Take up Wu Wei bickering in a Wu Wei thread.

 

Sorry - I feel my comment sums up what Zhuangzi is speaking to in this section, but it came out all wuwei. I feel Zhuangzi showed us different applications of wuwei for different people, as well as showing how doing could be put to use in different ratios with nondoing to achieve different results in different situations.

 

And if we take it further, perhaps it also unveils the doing to non-doing ratio as a means for identifying the point of balance in one's interference.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Daeluin

[Marblehead]

There is another concept in this section I'm not sure we have talked about and that is the thought that we should nourish and maintain our self so that we might live out the full potential of our life. (That is in the first paragraph prior to the butcher story.)