Judging Others

[ATMA]

What is the correct approach here?

 

 

Is it okay to view Bill Gates as a great man because of his vaccine work?

Also some would say that his vaccine work is something else entirely mass-sterilization, cancer-causing etc.

Then the others would deny it. They might enter into an argument.

So it seems that judging someone can only lead to conflict as all opinions differ.

 

It seems one should never invest anything in the affairs of the average man.

 

It's obviously wrong to punish wrong but is it right to praise right?

Or is the only correct approach (as always?) the approach of no-approach?

 

Even asking this question seems being a drawback to approach of growth but that's outside the topic.

 

I ask you this:

 

Do you hate anyone?

 

Nevermind that it's too easy.

 

Do you have a hero?

[Jeff]

Even asking this question seems being a drawback to approach of growth but that's outside the topic.

 

I ask you this:

 

Do you hate anyone?

 

Nevermind that it's too easy.

 

Do you have a hero?

 

Judging others is never helpful. Right & wrong is always dependent on context.

 

Do you hate anyone?

No.

 

Do you have a hero?

No.

 

Have a great weekend.

 

[Marblehead]

Judging others is never helpful. Right & wrong is always dependent on context.

 

Agree. But then most of us do judge others, at least on occasion. If we do though, it is important that we judge the individual according to the individual, not as compared with someone else or especially our expectations.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Why do we even need to judge?

 

Bill Gates made decisions which led to an objectively profitable business which brought him great personal success.

 

He also used that money for research for things that wouldn't otherwise have gotten done, and that research may go on to help people who otherwise wouldn't have gotten a certain kind of treatment.

 

Actions happened. It is what it is. Why do we need to even say if they were good or bad?

[Protector]

and I was told that Taoists were supposed to practice non-judgment

[Aaron]

Talking about it and doing are two different things. I judge people, even though I know sometimes it's not necessarily right, but the fact is there is no clear cut right or wrong, at times you're required to judge someone, especially their actions. If no one judged anyone, that would be ideal, but then how do you prevent people from hurting others or even protect ourselves from their actions.

 

So this is my own philosophy regarding this, if you judge someone, then you should not be upset if others judge you. If you cannot forgive someone, then don't expect forgiveness. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Simple stuff, but it's the best way to interact with others.

 

If you want to get metaphysical, then look at people as they are, transient upon this earth. Each of us is only what our experiences have made us. The person you judge could've been you, if you had lived their life. So with everyone show as much compassion as you can. Do not judge so harshly that you cannot allow yourself to forgive. Give everyone a chance for redemption, but do not be blinded by compassion, for there is no compassion in allowing another to repeat the harm they've done in the past.

 

Aaron

Edited November 4, 2011 by Twinner

[Cat Pillar]

Talking about it and doing are two different things. I judge people, even though I know sometimes it's not necessarily right, but the fact is there is no clear cut right or wrong, at times you're required to judge someone, especially their actions. If no one judged anyone, that would be ideal, but then how do you prevent people from hurting others or even protect ourselves from their actions.

 

So this is my own philosophy regarding this, if you judge someone, then you should not be upset if others judge you. If you cannot forgive someone, then don't expect forgiveness. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Simple stuff, but it's the best way to interact with others.

 

If you want to get metaphysical, then look at people as they are, transient upon this earth. Each of us is only what our experiences have made us. The person you judge could've been you, if you had lived their life. So with everyone show as much compassion as you can. Do not judge so harshly that you cannot allow yourself to forgive. Give everyone a chance for redemption, but do not be blinded by compassion, for there is no compassion in allowing another to repeat the harm they've done in the past.

 

Aaron

 

Hmm...a thought.

 

Is judgment necessary to protect oneself from harm?

 

A person attacks you, you defend yourself. The action of self-defense can be taken without regards to a moral categorization of the attacker. Simply a natural response to the present situation of being attacked.

[Aaron]

Hmm...a thought.

 

Is judgment necessary to protect oneself from harm?

 

A person attacks you, you defend yourself. The action of self-defense can be taken without regards to a moral categorization of the attacker. Simply a natural response to the present situation of being attacked.

 

Who said anything about moral categorization? I was talking about behavior. I don't judge people as good or bad, believe it or not, but rather by their actions.

 

I am strong advocate that one should behave in a socially acceptable way (if one wants to live within society) but they should not blindly follow moral ideology (be it Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever religion). In my own life I examine the effects my actions have on others and go from there. I also examine the effects someone else's actions have on others, and that of course requires judgement.

 

Aaron

[Cat Pillar]

Who said anything about moral categorization? I was talking about behavior. I don't judge people as good or bad, believe it or not, but rather by their actions.

 

I am strong advocate that one should behave in a socially acceptable way (if one wants to live within society) but they should not blindly follow moral ideology (be it Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever religion). In my own life I examine the effects my actions have on others and go from there. I also examine the effects someone else's actions have on others, and that of course requires judgement.

 

Aaron

 

Ah...I tend to consider the term "judgment" as implying a moral/ethical standard against which the subject is being judged.

 

As a matter of practicality I agree that one should generally behave within the acceptable limits of their society (unless of course that behavior is harmful to themselves or others).

 

I offer that perhaps "discernment" may be a better term for examining the effects of actions. There's a sense of finality carried with the term "judgment" that seems out of sorts with the spirit of what I think we're trying to convey. Of course, that sense of finality may only exist within my own perceptions.

[Jeff]

.

 

I offer that perhaps "discernment" may be a better term for examining the effects of actions. There's a sense of finality carried with the term "judgment" that seems out of sorts with the spirit of what I think we're trying to convey. Of course, that sense of finality may only exist within my own perceptions.

 

Can one "discern" without making a judgement?

 

[三江源]

Can one "discern" without making a judgement?

 

 

Great question, Jeff. In taoism, as in any individuation process, the locus of evaluation is internal.

 

The issue that so many people have around the word 'judgment' is that they see it as applying externally acquired principles to a situation or person, in a harsh or unknowing way.

 

Within taoism, we cultivate "TE" which is virtue in accordance with the tao, and we cultivate the inner sage, or shen.

 

With te and shen, one has the clear ability to discern, in a deep way.

 

What is out of accord with the tao is crystal clear.

 

If 'judgment' implies using an external locus of evaluation, there is no need to 'judge' anything, with 'judgement' as an action,or reflex, as nothing very much is achieved in depth by such an action or reflex.

 

Teh and shen are active in bringing discernment, those without these attributes may take recourse to 'judgment' in order actively to filter out of their system that which is undesirable for health, of them, or their society.

 

The fear of judgement is quite a cultural joke these days with 'dont judge' being a mantra for the lost souls that are without teh or shen within or around them. It is a sign of the oppression in our society of being alienated from deep te. The cultivation of a relationship with deep wisdom and virtue being something so rare as to be generally invisible, and in fact, inconceivable by many.

 

I dont know about Steve Jobs though, I havent been paying attention..

[Taomeow]

 

The fear of judgement is quite a cultural joke these days with 'dont judge' being a mantra for the lost souls that are without teh or shen within or around them. It is a sign of the oppression in our society of being alienated from deep te.

 

Thank you. A cultural joke indeed.

 

I remember a discussion with someone over the meaning/translation of "te" which made me realize that in English, "te" is spelled "inTEgrity." It is an inTEgral part of being able to inTEgrate.

 

Bill Gates is one of the devils of hell, and the penchant of the devil for making evil masquerade as good is a registered trademark of evil well established in worldwide traditions. To come up with such "judgement," a cultivated ability to inTEgrate moral and intellectual functions is a prerequisite; while throwing a camouflage blanket of non-judgement over any and all moral and intellectual functions of one's psyche is a prerequisite for DISinTEgration of both.

[三江源]

 

Thank you. A cultural joke indeed.

 

I remember a discussion with someone over the meaning/translation of "te" which made me realize that in English, "te" is spelled "inTEgrity." It is an inTEgral part of being able to inTEgrate.

 

Bill Gates is one of the devils of hell, and the penchant of the devil for making evil masquerade as good is a registered trademark of evil well established in worldwide traditions. To come up with such "judgement," a cultivated ability to inTEgrate moral and intellectual functions is a prerequisite; while throwing a camouflage blanket of non-judgement over any and all moral and intellectual functions of one's psyche is a prerequisite for DISinTEgration of both.

 

100%so.

 

Yes. It is a 'joke' amongst those who know, ( gallows humour, what else..) and a numbing mantra amongst the dead zone zombie nation, otherwise.

 

 

Tragic.

 

The demonic nature of being sold the idea that it is a limitation to bring discernment ( inner judgment) to bear on life is very palpable to me. I fully agree. The paralysis of discernment is being taught in schools now.

 

They have successfully brainwashed hordes of people out of their individuation.

 

And the collective who have been so stolen, feed one another group validation, that being lost is the norm, they have no sense of there being an alternative.

 

Dark indeed.

[三江源]

 

Thank you. A cultural joke indeed.

 

I remember a discussion with someone over the meaning/translation of "te" which made me realize that in English, "te" is spelled "inTEgrity." It is an inTEgral part of being able to inTEgrate.

 

 

[Aaron]

This Bill Gates conspiracy crap is funny, at least to me. There is no evidence to actually support any of it and in fact if he was actually sterilizing the majority of people in overpopulated areas, I'd give him a gold star for helping to do something about overpopulation. I mean lets face it, if something isn't done the world will be a miserable place for everyone to live in less than twenty years... unless you're very wealthy and can afford your own private compound. I'm not talking societal collapse by the way, that's not going to be the real apocalypse, the real apocalypse will creep up on us, slowly, so slowly that in forty years people will have forgotten the quality of life we have now. People will die of disease, starvation, and violent crimes in droves, all the while there will be more to replace them, increasing the population til we disintegrate and finally implode around eighty years down the line with a massive near extinction (if not actual extinction).

 

Anyways these are conservative estimates, it might take a couple decades longer or less, but most agree it wont be much better than I describe and it could get very much worse much sooner. So next time you come up with some conspiracy regarding Gates sterilizing millions of people around the world, keep in mind that could probably be one of the most humane things someone could do for the human race.

 

Aaron

[Jeff]

 

What is out of accord with the tao is crystal clear.

 

 

Nothing is ever out of accord with the Tao. It is only our artificial perceptions (or judgements) that make it appear so.

 

[三江源]

Nothing is ever out of accord with the Tao. It is only our artificial perceptions (or judgements) that make it appear so.

 

 

what is an 'artificial' perception?

 

It is nice to think that nothing is out of accord with the tao. I think it must be a comfortable thought.

[Jeff]

what is an 'artificial' perception?

 

It is nice to think that nothing is out of accord with the tao. I think it must be a comfortable thought.

 

In the context of this discussion an artificial perception is a judgement (or discernment).

 

It is not a thought, but what is...

 

Everything is Tao... Even those pesky thoughts...

 

[Jetsun]

Nothing is ever out of accord with the Tao. It is only our artificial perceptions (or judgements) that make it appear so.

 

 

I'm not so sure, in everything we do we can act in accordance with the Tao or not, for example Chuang Tzu in one off his chapters talks about a butcher who never blunts his knife because he cuts his meat along the natural line or gaps in the meat, that is butchery in line with the Tao, if the butcher just chopped anywhere that is butchery out of accord with the Tao because he is using unnecessary effort and friction, that is not just mind perception of the consequences it is direct action not in harmony with the Tao.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Jetsun

[RiverSnake]

Personally speaking, judging others has never helped me live a better life or grow as a person. All it has given me in return is psychological stress.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited November 7, 2011 by OldGreen

[manitou]

I love the part in the TTC where it says something like 'Between 'ugh' and 'aah' how much difference is there, really?

 

This speaks to the relativity of all things, and the awareness that good to one will appear to be bad to another. Therefore, the non-judgmental mind is the most expedient and the one with the most clarity. Our natural tendency is to judge, most likely, because of our conditioning. But this is what Te is partially about - to understand those inner parts of ourselves that do the judging; to realize why it is that we are judging; to recognize that the judgment always has a fear at the very base of it; to overcome the fear and to recognize the spark of 'the divine' in each other and to address that part of the other person. Regardless of how furled and contorted their insides may be, which is causing them to act out in

 

As to reacting when we are physically attacked by another, I agree that it doesn't have to be in the spirit of hatefulness. After all, the attacker is also Us. We must do what must be done to protect ourselves, but no doubt can be done with a smile on our faces, lol. If we look at it through the lens of Tao philosophy, it is the reluctant general who kills only as a last resort and aligns himself with virtue that will be the most effective, if The Art of War is taken into consideration.

[Protector]

I'm not so sure, in everything we do we can act in accordance with the Tao or not, for example Chuang Tzu in one off his chapters talks about a butcher who never blunts his knife because he cuts his meat along the natural line or gaps in the meat, that is butchery in line with the Tao, if the butcher just chopped anywhere that is butchery out of accord with the Tao because he is using unnecessary effort and friction, that is not just mind perception of the consequences it is direct action not in harmony with the Tao.

 

Objection

That chapter wasn't about this. Chi follows the course of less resistance. So whatever happens, it happens because that's the easiest thing to happen. Apple tree can't grow oranges for example. For the cook it was easy to find the right path for the knife after 3 years of trying it out. If the cook was a real master, he could have created his own paths himself and cut through a rock without damaging the knife. But the chapter wasn't about this either.

[三江源]

In the context of this discussion an artificial perception is a judgement (or discernment).

 

It is not a thought, but what is...

 

Everything is Tao... Even those pesky thoughts...

 

 

Of course they arent 'pesky' are they, that's an artificial perception.

 

What practices do you do Jeff? How did you develop your te and shen?

[三江源]

I'm not so sure, in everything we do we can act in accordance with the Tao or not, for example Chuang Tzu in one off his chapters talks about a butcher who never blunts his knife because he cuts his meat along the natural line or gaps in the meat, that is butchery in line with the Tao, if the butcher just chopped anywhere that is butchery out of accord with the Tao because he is using unnecessary effort and friction, that is not just mind perception of the consequences it is direct action not in harmony with the Tao.

 

Jetsun, hi.

 

Everything the sage does is in accord with the tao.

 

For those of us that havent reached sagehood, there's a bit more to it.

[Jeff]

Of course they arent 'pesky' are they, that's an artificial perception.

 

Thank you for the smile.

 

What practices do you do Jeff? How did you develop your te and shen?

 

My main practice is trying to be constantly in the moment. But, to your question, it has been evolving energy practices combined with some meditation. Currently, it is "opening to the energy" and "no thought" meditation. Similar to Shaktopaya in Kashmir Shaivism. Feel free to email me if you have a specific question.

 

Edited November 5, 2011 by Jeff