Actual Manifestation Of Chi

[forestofsouls]

I was perusing the John Chang thread recently, and it made me wonder: how many people out there have actually met some one who could provide a real, demonstrable manifestation of chi or chi-like phenomenon? I think that Mr. Denty is right: once you taste the real thing, there's no doubt whatsoever. Personally, I've met two. The most powerful was Master Waysun Liao.

 

When I met Master Liao, I wanted to "test" him. We've all seen those martial arts demonstrations where the so-called master demonstartes mystical techniques on people of their own choosing. I had this in mind and wanted to test ML. Much to my surprise, he ASKED me to test him. At one point, I had my body wedged between the floor and his arm trying to keep him from lowering it, all to no avail. But the real kicker is when he was demonstrating how chi should feel when one is practicing correctly. Make no mistake, this stuff is as far from imagination as the law of gravity.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has had similar first-hand experiences, and if so, with who.

[thaddeus]

I was perusing the John Chang thread recently, and it made me wonder: how many people out there have actually met some one who could provide a real, demonstrable manifestation of chi or chi-like phenomenon? I think that Mr. Denty is right: once you taste the real thing, there's no doubt whatsoever. Personally, I've met two. The most powerful was Master Waysun Liao.

 

When I met Master Liao, I wanted to "test" him. We've all seen those martial arts demonstrations where the so-called master demonstartes mystical techniques on people of their own choosing. I had this in mind and wanted to test ML. Much to my surprise, he ASKED me to test him. At one point, I had my body wedged between the floor and his arm trying to keep him from lowering it, all to no avail. But the real kicker is when he was demonstrating how chi should feel when one is practicing correctly. Make no mistake, this stuff is as far from imagination as the law of gravity.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has had similar first-hand experiences, and if so, with who.

Problem is what is 'chi'? How does Master Liao 'demonstrate' how chi should 'feel'? Alot of stuff that some people call 'chi', because they don't understand what is going on, is actually body mechanics, conditioning, etc.

So I think we should put some context around the examples.

Good thread, btw, not trying to poo poo it right off the bat.

T

[...]

I have never met anyone capable of this sort of shit.

the most is as such-- one reiki buddhist I went to for a session, (for some reason I never went back for the 2nd and 3rd,) put his hand on my forehead, and energy began to flow from my sacrum up. this is not uncommon for me in regular practice, however... and the rest of the session was a fucking bust...and I got nothing.

another 'reiki' dude gave me a 2 minute reiki session. I laid down on my front, and he touched my third or fourth chakra.. and my back twitched a large a bit. nothing really special though.

 

Otherwise, the most profound manifestations of energy, (or the consequences thereof,) come from me =( which is really crappy, lame, and pathetic.

 

OH OH ! I was going to a tai chi teacher for a while learning his form... I was paying out of the ass for private lessons, and I swear the dude was prolonging the lessons and teaching me as little as possible as he could, so I would have to come more often. I think he is pretty low level... I would not be surprised if I topped him at times, energy-wise... but I SWEAR he pulled this trick of stopping me from thinking!!!

it was like, I knew the form, was going through it, and he would fill my head with chi or something so my mind would go blank and would have to stop! (I don't know!) Maybe I am being paranoid, and I am personally surprised that he was evolved enough to pull a stunt like that... but still... =(

 

I also have experienced 'vampires' in qigong groups.. don't know who it was but I had to stop going to one, and group, because someone was absorbing all my energy, and instead of feeling high as usual, I would feel totally drained... (bastard...)

 

OH and I was doing qigong with this one dude... when he first met he looked at my right ear and made it ring. that was cool at the time... but I don't remember any other tricks he might have had up his sleeve... this was when I was at my strongest, and I think that my energy was much stronger than his at the time... I could see aura's a bit at the time... he had a very strong one... probably about as strong as mine... mine probably red mroe often because I was adept at tantric masturbation.

 

oh well =( no super cool teacher dude, yet... I probably won't settle for anything less than an immortal when it comes to teachers =(

[rex]

I've got one:

 

1) An akido guy brushed his hand up my forearm and all the strength left it. Brushing his hand down again restored the strength.

Edited October 5, 2006 by rex

[forestofsouls]

"Problem is what is 'chi'? How does Master Liao 'demonstrate' how chi should 'feel'? Alot of stuff that some people call 'chi', because they don't understand what is going on, is actually body mechanics, conditioning, etc.

So I think we should put some context around the examples.

Good thread, btw, not trying to poo poo it right off the bat.

T"

 

Sorry, I haven't gotten the quote thing figured out.

 

What we did was we all gathered in a circle. Master Liao had us put our hands out in the tai chi ball stance, which is standing shoulder width apart, with our palms facing one another, perpendicular to the floor. Sort of like holding a beach ball in front of you. He placed his hands around my hands, without touching. Then he said, let me know when you feel something.

 

Mind you, I was a chi skeptic at this time. I could feel vague light buzzings, but nothing substantial.

 

What I did was try to keep an open, empty mind and a relaxed body. I was curious, but quite sceptical. What happened was it felt like suddenly I was hooked up to a power generator. When I was younger, I once grabbed a refrigerator that wasn't fully grounded, and was mildly electocuted. It was similar, but it felt good. It started out vague, then I felt a lot of pressure as though I was submerged under water. I said nothing, and the feelings got very strong. Then the pressure gave way and it felt like liquid electicity was flowing throughout my body, and it felt as real and vivid as an oak table. I also felt my lower dan tien and upper dan tien swelling and opening, and it was ecstatic. It also felt like there was a fine electrical wire connecting the two dan tiens. I felt giddy and high, and couldn't stop smiling. It also felt there was an actual ball between my hands.

 

The main thought I had was "Oh my God I can't beleive this is real!"

 

Master Liao said that the object was to cultivate oneself so that one could feel that way without a master "charging you up".

 

To some extent, we all feel chi: when we are well rested and feel alive. But this was magnified many times over. I would say chi is energy, much like electrical energy. I've been told that some people can hear it, some people can see it, but most feel it. When talking about chi, I mean feeling electrical energy with no technological source that feels as vivid as physical objects.

 

I agree with what you say, T. I firmly believe that most of the stuff on chi out there is imagined, wrong, or mistaken. Which is why I wanted to start a thread, to try to separate out the phonies. Now I'm not saying that Master Liao is the ONLY possible source of authentic chi exercises, just one. I think Wong Kiew Kit may be another, but I don't have direct experience and so I can't say. I hear Yan Xin does some amazing things, but once again, I don't have direct experience of it.

[spyrelx]

Probably a good time to renew the chi challenge I made a few years ago on the HT board:

 

I'll pay $500 to anyone who can produce someone that can move my body with chi.

 

Here's the conditions:

 

--This must be in NYC or environs.

 

--I'll be sitting on an office chair with rollers on a smooth (no carpet) floor -- i.e., I would roll if pushed.

 

--the person is not allowed to touch me.

 

--I'd want to put something on his hands like flour or powder so if he did touch me quickly the residue would be on my clothing. Perhaps some other check can be devised.

 

--He's got to roll me at least 8 feet across the floor.

 

--I'm going to videotape the encounter (though will not sell the tape or otherwise derive profit from the event).

 

 

No one ever answered the challenge on the HT board. Perhaps we'll have better luck here.

[mYTHmAKER]

I've got a few:

 

1) An akido guy brushed his hand up my forearm and all the strength left it. Brushing his hand down again restored the strength.

 

That sounds like kinesiology,

[forestofsouls]

spyrelx,

 

$500? I wouldn't even come to New York to pick up the money if you were giving it away. With air flight (I'm not sure if that'll even cover air fare), hotel reservations, and time-in-transit (away from my family, who I don't get to see enough of as it is), it wouldn't be worth MY time, and I'm no master.

 

No one has to believe that people can do amazing things with chi. You're better off NOT believing it, unless you've experienced it yourself, because direct, personal experience is the only thing that really counts.

[thaddeus]

No one has to believe that people can do amazing things with chi. You're better off NOT believing it, unless you've experienced it yourself, because direct, personal experience is the only thing that really counts.

but you see the problem with this..since it's personal experience, one can not rule out delusion. there has to be some sort of objective results if anyone is to take it seriously.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 20, 2021 by darebak

[thaddeus]

 

Sorry, I haven't gotten the quote thing figured out.

 

there are two 'reply' buttons, if you hit the one under the message (not at the bottom of all the messages) it should copy the text so you can edit it..

T

[thaddeus]

I have never met anyone capable of this

Honestly, me neither..and I've been around the block. In fact BP Chan would rap you on the head or scold anyone who ever 'talked chi'. He thought it was load of crap and a sure sign of a BSer. I find most serious martial artists take this view. I'll call it now..anyone talking about all this chi stuff sooner or later is exposed as a manipulator..it's a sure fire way to control someone..purporting you have 'powers'.

Regarding the 'chi ball' sensations, anyone can do it, and it really has nothing to do with doing taichi correctly. I would seriously question a taichi teacher that over emphasized that phenomena.

But with all that said, I still am guilty of 'talking chi'..it's a seductive topic..

T

[forestofsouls]

but you see the problem with this..since it's personal experience, one can not rule out delusion. there has to be some sort of objective results if anyone is to take it seriously.

 

I'm not sure there is such thing as "objective". People who are generally predisposed to belief tend to believe with very little evidence. People who are generally predisposed not to believe usually set a very high burden of proof. I've noticed that many people, including myself, prefer to follow our pre-mapped worldviews. We decide, then see rather than the other way around.

 

One of the first rules I was taught on this path was to verify everything for myself. I've found this to be quite helpful in maintaining the balance between naivete and constant skepticism.

[thelerner]

I took Ki-Aikido for quite a few years. There were 3 regular Aikido classes a week plus a Ki class where we'd work on balance or breathing or ki tricks.

 

One thing I liked about my instructor is he'd show us the tricks/techniques behind the impressive stuff. Too often Chi Gung teachers like to leave it as mysterious otherworldly.

 

We couldn't do them on his level but we understood how they were done. Simple stuff like having 6 or 7 people push against you when standing or seated. Note 2 harder then 3. After 3 it gets easier as they interfere with each other.

 

One neat thing he'd do is hold a staff with one finger right in the middle. He'd have two people hold the ends and push against him. Impressive, as always there is the relaxed extension at work. You can call it 'Ki' but its no different then how any good dancer holds there body. Similarly with any type of push trick, if you take up slack first, just a few pounds of pressure at the right moment, just before there force comes, people bounce back nicely.

 

I think some people are more energy sensitive, and you can do more spectacular things with them. There was one Steven Seagal teaching video where he said, 'I'd like to see someone throw me without touching. It can't be done.' Yet in the video you'd clearly see his Uke, partner being thrown without touch. Part of it was-its better to go down early then get smacked and go down. Part was simpatico, they'd worked so long together that moves were ingrained.

 

I think Ki can be used for healing and body heat generation, in some cases transmission of energy. Levitation? Only in universes far far away.

 

Michael

[sean]

Subtle energy is part of a rich cosmology on a path to awakening to the truth of the Tao. Everything is an "actual manifestation of chi" because we are all part of the same energetic field. When people get into these discussions about magic tricks I'm sorry I just have to shake my head. For me the concept of chi within the Taoist worldview has as much relevance to unbendable arms, electric tingles and shooting fireballs as it does with farting the alphabet. Go watch a live childbirth for the most amazing manifestation of chi! I'm not trying to dismiss the conversation completely, it's interesting on some level I guess, but I just hope it's in the right perspective. The real Taoist classics are about cultivating qualities so ordinary they are almost completely neglected.

[rex]

That sounds like kinesiology,

Neat trick though. Probably only works on forearms of relaxed compliant subjects. Never did get to test if he could do it sparring on other body parts.

[forestofsouls]

Subtle energy is part of a rich cosmology on a path to awakening to the truth of the Tao. Everything is an "actual manifestation of chi" because we are all part of the same energetic field. When people get into these discussions about magic tricks I'm sorry I just have to shake my head. For me the concept of chi within the Taoist worldview has as much relevance to unbendable arms, electric tingles and shooting fireballs as it does with farting the alphabet. Go watch a live childbirth for the most amazing manifestation of chi! I'm not trying to dismiss the conversation completely, it's interesting on some level I guess, but I just hope it's in the right perspective. The real Taoist classics are about cultivating qualities so ordinary they are almost completely neglected.

 

Cosmology isn't all about what's out there. It's all about what's in here. What you might call a "magic trick" and write off as ancient superstition might be part of a teaching more powerful than we previusly imagined. These "tricks" may show an open door to a greater human potential, and a world far more rich and complex then we imagined. If so, then it is like using an airplane to haul a vegetable cart: a waste of potential.

The suggestion that our worldview may be incomplete is indeed a frightful one, because we do not and perhaps never will have a complete worldview that provides us with safety and comfort. It is far easier to dismiss these claims outright than to keep an open mind and see what we can see. What might be considered extraordinary powers may be signposts to something quite significant.

 

Tingles, etc. have been used by Taoist cultivators just in this way: as signposts on the path. They can not be forced, or chased for their own accord, but this does not mean they are not significant.

 

The real Taoist classics were written in Chinese, which is a complex language, in a specific cultural context, with specific symbols. Many written texts (the Bible, the Buddhist sutras, the Tao te ching) throughout history are accompanied by an oral tradition that passes from a living mouth to a living ear. As books translated by Western academics, they generally become texts that espouse a practical quietism. As translated by practicing Taoists with access to the living tradition, they tell a far different story.

Edited October 5, 2006 by forestofsouls

[Yoda]

Spyrelx,

 

Plato and Winn recommend a healer in NYC... he can't move you around, but per Plato and Winn, he has the ability to heal by a very powerful energy flow. I think he charges around $100 for a session. If I lived in NYC, I'd definitely check him out. E-mail Winn or pm Sheepishlord if you are interested.

 

Nice to have you check in again!

 

-Yoda

[spyrelx]

Thanks Yoda, nice to be back. I know about the guy, he's on my list . . . .

 

forestoffools, you'd think a place like NYC, with an extensive chinese community, daoist community, martial arts community and new age community -- all with constant visiting "masters" -- would be able to produce SOMEONE like this. I also throw this challenge here, since everyone here is hooked in to these various communities and persumably knows SOMEONE who has these powers.

 

A challenge like this tends to clarify things pretty quickly. I'm not a rich man and have no desire to part with the dough. But I don't expect to either. Personally, I don't think there's a person on the planet who could do it. Which to me means when a martial arts master throws me across the room with seemingly barely the flick of a pinky he's using body mechanics rather than chi. (I mean, if he was using chi he could push the chair across the room, couldn't he?).

 

It's an interesting conundrum for those of us on this path. If you believe in chi (and I do) then there's a bit of a problem.

 

-We feel it in our body, so it exists there.

 

-We believe a healer has the ability to transmit it to others, or a master that touches your third eye can send electric shocks into you -- so it can be "projected" those ways.

 

-If you believe in the immortal fetus or astral projection, then you're basically saying that energy can be projected quite far outside the body.

 

And yet no one can manage to move a chair across a room (on wheels no less!).

 

Interesting.

[sean]

Cosmology isn't all about what's out there. It's all about what's in here.

Like I said, I see everything as a manifestation of chi. Inside and outside. Taoist cosmology in particular deeply associates the interior and exterior. It also places a unique emphasis on the interior, along with most wisdom traditions.

 

What you might call a "magic trick" and write off as ancient superstition might be part of a teaching more powerful than we previusly imagined. These "tricks" may show an open door to a greater human potential, and a world far more rich and complex then we imagined. If so, then it is like using an airplane to haul a vegetable cart: a waste of potential.

 

The suggestion that our worldview may be incomplete is indeed a frightful one, because we do not and perhaps never will have a complete worldview that provides us with safety and comfort. It is far easier to dismiss these claims outright than to keep an open mind and see what we can see.

Frankly I believe that anything is possible. In fact the funny thing about infinity is, anything you imagine, will eventually happen. Infinity contains everything imaginable.

 

... What might be considered extraordinary powers may be signposts to something quite significant. ... Tingles, etc. have been used by Taoist cultivators just in this way: as signposts on the path. They can not be forced, or chased for their own accord, but this does not mean they are not significant.

Maybe cultivating and/or witnessing external displays of chi power are an expression of your path to awakening the Tao. I am just speaking for myself when I say it's not a draw for me. External chi fireworks are just personally mundane to me. First, because I would rather spend my time with enlightened teachers than powerful magicians. Second, because I have enough faith in myself and my path as it is. Third, because being able to do roundhouse chi kicks says nothing to me about a person's level of awakening. Fourth, because 100% of the cases of so-called chi power I've looked into have panned out as delusion or deliberate trickery. ... I could probably go on.

 

Your latter point on internal tingles is different. Using your internal senses to navigate spiritual cultivation does not have the same validity problems as saying someone held your arm at a wierd angle and you couldn't move it so therefore they have highly developed chi. This is where science is helpful in sorting out the different classes of validity claims.

 

I think my main point is that, on the path to awaken to the Tao, chi is subtle energy, but subtle doesn't mean closer to Truth. The most subtle phenomenon is as close to Truth as the most dense.

 

The real Taoist classics were written in Chinese, which is a complex language, in a specific cultural context, with specific symbols. Many written texts (the Bible, the Buddhist sutras, the Tao te ching) throughout history are accompanied by an oral tradition that passes from a living mouth to a living ear. As books translated by Western academics, they generally become texts that espouse a practical quietism. As translated by practicing Taoists with access to the living tradition, they tell a far different story.

Can you give me an example of the latter type of text? Just curious where you are coming from here.

 

Sean

[Trunk]

I'm more interested in the meditative arts, and have sat with several teachers who did group transmissions such that 30-250 people's consciousness were altered during the sit with the teacher. Of those, I consider Mark Griffin to be exceptionally accomplished and of impeccable character. Everyone feels something strong & profound going on sitting with him. When I was studying with him, I wrote something along the lines that, "Hard Light lived up to its name: I didn't know anyone studying with him that wasn't consistently stretched to receive and integrate what was being transmitted". I could write many paragraphs about him and it'd all sound hyperbolic. His is extremely accomplished. (He studied in Siddha and Kagyu lineages.)

[sunshine]

 

And yet no one can manage to move a chair across a room (on wheels no less!).

 

Interesting.

 

Well. I assume those that can are clever enough not to show it punblicly... or covered as "magical trick"...

 

don't you think whichever sick secret service would try to nail you?

 

and believe me: If I could I sure wouldn't believe you not to give the video away

[thaddeus]

 

And yet no one can manage to move a chair across a room (on wheels no less!).

 

Interesting.

well one thought i had on this is the following..a big mantra of many internal stylists is that the 'mind leads the chi'..they don't say chi leads the mind. So if you want to move someone, you need to make *their* mind lead their chi. So when someone moves someone without touching them, they are really affecting their mind, which in turn moves their body. a scientist could say hypnosis or suggestion or conditioning. someone less scientifically inclined would say 'chi'.

an old trick for fighting is to position yourself in such a way that you have no apparant targets, then open up a part of your body that you want your attacker to attack. then say something to provoke them to attack you, you are already ready for that punch to the face because in reality you are completely controlling the mind of your attacker without him realizing it. to onlookers it appears magical and that you have super reflexes or 'special chi powers'. we can go on and on with this stuff...

T

 

I'm more interested in the meditative arts, and have sat with several teachers who did group transmissions such that 30-250 people's consciousness were altered during the sit with the teacher. Of those, I consider Mark Griffin to be exceptionally accomplished and of impeccable character. Everyone feels something strong & profound going on sitting with him. When I was studying with him, I wrote something along the lines that, "Hard Light lived up to its name: I didn't know anyone studying with him that wasn't consistently stretched to receive and integrate what was being transmitted". I could write many paragraphs about him and it'd all sound hyperbolic. His is extremely accomplished. (He studied in Siddha and Kagyu lineages.)

He seems to have some cool things to say..i like the link to the body in his articles..

what does he mean by 'in spiritual life form is destiny. any depth of understanding of the human form must lead you to believe that the entire destiny of a human being is to awaken..'

T

[...]

spyrelx--

 

it was written in the book ;magus of java' (ring of fire dude,) that john chang can do that sort of thing. (fuck, he said he wrote how he could levitate, and stop pellet-bullets...)

 

it is because john chang could project yin and yang energy... as opposed to how if you or I tried to project it, we would probably only be projecting yang...thus ruining our attempt ineffective.

 

there wa sa story how guys practicing nei gung would try to knock over beer cans or something... they would project theyr yang qi or whatever... but it was only because john chang would fill the atmosphere with yin-chi or whatever that the yang projected was rendered effective enough to manifest in 'telekinesis' or whatever.

 

I am gullible... But I don't think that kostas is a liar. I definately believe in some crazy-ass shit you can pull with the right sorts of cultivation. I believe you have the potential to shoot fireballs at people. walk through walls. be 'immortal'.

 

 

Goodluck figuring out how... and then managing the discipline to achieve the art without seriously injuring yourself...

[Smile]

Probably a good time to renew the chi challenge I made a few years ago on the HT board:

 

I'll pay $500 to anyone who can produce someone that can move my body with chi.

 

And how much are you paying the actual person that will move your body?

If the price is right, i will ask my teacher.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Smile