The Supernaturals

[Immortal4life]

One of the most mysterious spiritual practices, and one that is often misunderstood by westerners, is the practice of taking Hallucinogenic plants to aid in understanding the universe and nature. Most people know a little bit about beings like Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, etc. but Shamanism can also be very interesting. The Shamans of the Amazon Rainforest have always known about the value of plants to aid in increasing their spiritual knowledge, and in attaining altered states of consciousness.

I have heard theories that old meditation and Chi Kung practitioners, thousands of years ago, were very sensitive to the properties of plants, and using plants may even have influenced the development of their exercise practices and knowledge of the energies of the internal organs. There is even a theory that Jesus and his followers took hallucinogenic mushrooms to aid in raising their consciousness.

In modern times a few "rogue" researchers have now begun to seriously investigate this phenomena. What has been discovered so far is very interesting. Throughout history, all over the world, the oldest pre-historic art is often found to be depicting a certain type of being. Beings that are half human/half animal hybrids. Not only do they exist in the most ancient Rock and Cave Art, but also in the legends and histories of so many ancient peoples, the Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Greeks, the Hopi, etc. So what does this mean? What is so interesting is that modern researchers who have visited with, and experienced ceremonies with the Shamans of the Amazon Rainforest, have found that these same Hybrid beings come to the Shamans when they take Ayahuasca, also called "the Vine of Souls". The Shamans encounter and communicate with these same Hybrid beings. Add to that, that even people who live in the modern world and who are not Shamans, often independently experience encountering these beings when given DMT, which is one of the main ingredients in the Ayahuasca brew.

What this seems to prove is that these "Supernatural" half-human/half-animal hybrids do exist in some objective form. Of course atheists and skeptics will claim the visions are just hallucinations, caused by drugs. However, this does not explain why so many people have the same visions. If it were just hallucinations, you would expect people to see things in line with their cultural programming.

What is your explanation and opinion of this? Who are these "Supernaturals" who have guided Shamans for thousands of years? Are they actual beings who exist in another plane, and who communicate with humans who know the right plants and have the right keys? Did these beings actually live on Earth at one time, and have now moved beyond Earth? Is it how we perceive the spirit and consciousness of the plant to look like or their true form?

Here is a really cool interview with researcher Graham Hancock, about his experiences taking Ayahuasca with the Shamans of the Amazon, and altered states of consciousness in general-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze0qVmghxF0

Part 2-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDdpr4C9ikQ

Supernatural-
http://www.grahamhancock.com/archive/supernatural/

Ayahuasca Art-
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/supernatural/ Edited January 18, 2013 by Immortal4life

[Jetsun]

What are the beings? I think even if you interact with them and you learn things from them you question whether they are just hallucinations or not, then the other question is whether many of the fairy tales that you heard growing up are actually talking about a real aspect of reality, but if you genuinely start to ask these questions then it shows your perception has been loosened from the rigid consensus reality which may be the most important thing even if you have no answers. I agree with a lot of what Hancock says, although it is quite common for people to see Jesus on ayahuasca, but if you really want to know the answers the best way would be to go and talk to the spirits yourself and ask them what they are.

[Mokona]

The way i can tell - i ask a spirit to prove itself to another person. Pinches are the best, when they jump or suddenly go "ouch!"

[Informer]

I think the most physical interaction they can have is with your energy. Third eye + sleep deprivation = same things.

[ATMA]

I think the most physical interaction they can have is with your energy.

 

What about case and point of so called 'demonic possessions'?

Edited November 8, 2011 by ATMA

[Gerard]

One of the most mysterious spiritual practices, and one that is often misunderstood by westerners, is the practice of taking Hallucinogenic plants to aid in understanding the universe and nature.

 

Hi there,

 

Let me give you my personal experience on the matter:

 

Relying on exogenic substances to manipulate consciousness will create dependence and it will not promote your spiritual growth from a karmic perspective. In other words, you will further dig a hole in your psiritual evolution as you will stunt that growth which only results from the noble eightfold path:

 

1. Wisdom

 

2. Ethical conduct

 

3. Mental development. This is where substance use will fail in terms of "right effort", "right mindfulness" and "right concentration."

 

If you are after directly exploring higher states of consciousness and being in touch with beings dwelling in either our three dimensional realm or on others, then train to transfer your conscious state to your astral body during sleep (yin phase of our human existence). For some astral projection is almost a natural exercise, but for most of us it requires a dedicated and disciplined practice. Connecting to the instant switch from the yang to the yin cycle is not easy and also the energy required to travel in the astral is also significant, which explains why a daily meditation routine and internal energy work that builds up our Qi and refines the essence "jing-qi-shen" is needed in order to "remain" during the yin phase.

 

Dragon Gate Daoists, Yogis belonging to the Samkhya school (Raja Yoga) and Tibetan Buddhists actively incorporate astral work in their spiritual practices in order to overcome the fear of death (loss of ego) and acquire higher knowledge of the workings of the Universe. These people don't use hallucinogenic substances; they don't need to as they put a lot of effort into daily meditation, and their karma will grow as well as their spiritual insight and wisdom.

 

I personally would refer to this final group for advice on the matter.

 

If you are really interested in exploring those realms and our physical Universe introduce in your daily regime lucid dreaming and astral projection practices. There is plenty of free literature online on this subject and a very active and supportive forum

 

Good luck.

[starhawk]

Hi there,

 

Let me give you my personal experience on the matter:

 

Relying on exogenic substances to manipulate consciousness will create dependence and it will not promote your spiritual growth from a karmic perspective. In other words, you will further dig a hole in your psiritual evolution as you will stunt that growth which only results from the noble eightfold path:

 

1. Wisdom

 

2. Ethical conduct

 

3. Mental development. This is where substance use will fail in terms of "right effort", "right mindfulness" and "right concentration."

 

If you are after directly exploring higher states of consciousness and being in touch with beings dwelling in either our three dimensional realm or on others, then train to transfer your conscious state to your astral body during sleep (yin phase of our human existence). For some astral projection is almost a natural exercise, but for most of us it requires a dedicated and disciplined practice. Connecting to the instant switch from the yang to the yin cycle is not easy and also the energy required to travel in the astral is also significant, which explains why a daily meditation routine and internal energy work that builds up our Qi and refines the essence "jing-qi-shen" is needed in order to "remain" during the yin phase.

 

Dragon Gate Daoists, Yogis belonging to the Samkhya school (Raja Yoga) and Tibetan Buddhists actively incorporate astral work in their spiritual practices in order to overcome the fear of death (loss of ego) and acquire higher knowledge of the workings of the Universe. These people don't use hallucinogenic substances; they don't need to as they put a lot of effort into daily meditation, and their karma will grow as well as their spiritual insight and wisdom.

 

I personally would refer to this final group for advice on the matter.

 

If you are really interested in exploring those realms and our physical Universe introduce in your daily regime lucid dreaming and astral projection practices. There is plenty of free literature online on this subject and a very active and supportive forum

 

Good luck.

 

Gerard, You seem to be a Dharma protector type. I'll PM you a question.

[Gerard]

Gerard, You seem to be a Dharma protector type. I'll PM you a question.

 

I don't think so.

 

At this stage of my practice, names, tags, titles, brands, schools, etc., mean little.

 

Kind regards.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

 

Relying on exogenic substances to manipulate consciousness will create dependence and it will not promote your spiritual growth from a karmic perspective. In other words, you will further dig a hole in your psiritual evolution as you will stunt that growth which only results from the noble eightfold path ( snip )

 

Dragon Gate Daoists, Yogis belonging to the Samkhya school (Raja Yoga) and Tibetan Buddhists actively incorporate astral work in their spiritual practices in order to overcome the fear of death (loss of ego) and acquire higher knowledge of the workings of the Universe. These people don't use hallucinogenic substances; they don't need to as they put a lot of effort into daily meditation, and their karma will grow as well as their spiritual insight and wisdom.

 

Check out Plants of the Gods: Their Sacred, Healing, and Hallucinogenic Powers by Richard Schultes. A superbly researched treatise on the subject, it has photographs of holy men in India, Nepal, Tibet, etc. smoking ganja from humongous hookas, enveloped in thick clouds of psychedelic smoke, in strict accordance with their ancient traditions. Yogis, Buddhists, Tibetan Buddhists... everybody who is anybody in the world of spiritual pursuit outside the jurisdiction of the FDA and its clones. 1/3 of all sacred Hindu sutras are glorifications of the ganja, did you know that?

 

Of course no shaman in his (or shamanka in her) right mind takes DMT, to say nothing of much viler lab-created substances, whether mind-altering prescription drugs or street drugs, that are addictive and destructive. There are no drug users among shamans. Drugs are not sacred. Drugs are profane. Sacred plants taken for sacred purposes are sacred, however. Have always been, despite centuries of persecutions by the fathers of the church and their modern arms of enforcement, suppression, falsification, profiteering from profane substitutes while criminalizing the sacred, relentless brainwashing, and so on.

[michael245]

immortal ,I use to eat shrooms all the time,never had any bad hullicinations,just laughed ALOT.No offense to you Gerard but,you're a big sponge bob SQUARE pants. immortal4life,people who have never used hallucinogenic mushrooms over exagerate,some people will lie about taking shrooms just to look cool in front of a group of people.I've caught many people lying before.

[Gerard]

A superbly researched treatise on the subject, it has photographs of holy men in India, Nepal, Tibet, etc. smoking ganja from humongous hookas, enveloped in thick clouds of psychedelic smoke, in strict accordance with their ancient traditions. Yogis, Buddhists, Tibetan Buddhists... everybody who is anybody in the world of spiritual pursuit outside the jurisdiction of the FDA and its clones. 1/3 of all sacred Hindu sutras are glorifications of the ganja, did you know that?

 

Holy men?

 

 

 

In my opinion, these are some of the holy men and women who practiced diligently without the use of any mind-altering substances:

 

 

 

(http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Steps_Toward_Inner_Peace)

 

 

 

 

I would look at their message as a means of inspiration/motivation in your spiritual path.

 

 

On the other hand, the book states the following:

 

The Tibetans considered Cannabis sacred. A Mahayana Buddhist tradition maintains that during the six steps of asceticism leading to his enlightenment, Buddha lived on one Hemp seed a day. He is often depicted with "Soma leaves" in his begging bowl and the mysterious god-narcotic Soma has occasionally been identified with Hemp. (p.97).

 

One tradition only? The very one that justifies drug use in their practices by referring to the Buddha? As if a 'Buddha seal' was enough for a guaranteed approval. I disagree here, sorry but that book excerpt is utter nonsense.

 

In my opinion, the Tibetan Buddhist schools have the issue of not having fully dealt with overcoming some of the Bon practices which inevitably lead to the dark side. How come Tibet was lost to the Chinese? Something to ponder upon.

 

There is no substitute for hard work and lifetime and after lifetime of refining karma and acquiring more spiritual wisdom. Drugs are for cheats and the karmic consequences are great for those who reinforce their already bloated egos via substance use, and they eventually will abuse power for personal gain.

 

Hallucinogenics can be useful for those (in a carefully supervised environment, kind of a Ayahuasca ceremony for cleansing purposes) who have seriously damaged their minds and bodies as a result of their past actions and find a meditative daily regime almost impossible to begin with; however, they shouldn't expect their use as an effective shortcut because it simply won't work.

 

Those shamanic practices that evolved around the use of power plants and intended for rites of passage, divination, protection and some sort of spiritual insight are embedded in their cultural traditions, but sorry they won't lead to enlightenment.

[Taomeow]

Those shamanic practices that evolved around the use of power plants and intended for rites of passage, divination, protection and some sort of spiritual insight are embedded in their cultural traditions, but sorry they won't lead to enlightenment.

 

Enlightenment, a concept cherished by sun-worshiping species (the cold-blooded light-and-heat-activated reptiles), was certainly not part of "those shamanic practices" that created and perpetuated human history for hundreds of thousands of years. I'm not at all convinced that selling this tall tale to humans by Marduk and the nagas and the rest of them creepy crawly critters had humans' best interest at heart to begin with.

 

Bon, with its powerful but (alas) peaceful shamans and hundreds of thousands of peaceful practitioners, was destroyed with extreme prejudice by the invading buddhists (sic), and the best of Tibetan Buddhism is what remains of Bon that, as a bright afterthought, they managed to incorporate instead of eliminating. Karmically speaking, what the Chinese communists did to Tibetan buddhists is exactly what Tibetan buddhists did to Tibetan Bon practitioners earlier, to answer your question.

 

And at least one of the people in the pics you posted is a ruthless fraud, embezzler of money obtained through manipulating the public with tall tales of compassionate missions that were in reality a self-serving crusade for power, and a not-so-petty tyrant who managed to fool the world (power-hungry tyrants are known to do that on occasion, you know).

 

And so on. I could, but won't, give you much of the "so on," but I'll limit myself to this one item for consideration maybe at some later date:

 

a little bird told me that the absolute worst karmic sin of them all is taking the side of the oppressor against the oppressed. If you examine the history of destruction of shamanism by institutionalized religions, and figure out who the oppressor has been, consistently, for many hundreds of blood-soaked years, in this long and merciless story of enslavement of the human spirit, maybe you will want to change sides someday... Till if/then, I'm resting my case.

[Patrick Brown]

[Taomeow]

The whole of humanity throughout the whole of its history (until some 120 years ago when a new German paradigm of schooling was proposed by a few powerful members of the ruling class and implemented first in the West and then globally) accepted that these beings are perceived because they, um, exist.

 

The first alkaloid isolated from ayahuasca (out of many, most of which have functions science can't begin to understand -- to say nothing of their synergistic action -- which is one reason I'm vehemently opposed to drugs, the isolates of substances, and more so to the use of the word "drug" to refer to a plant that is infinitely more complex than any drug and infinitely removed from the latter if only by virtue of this unmatched complexity) -- I was saying -- the alkaloid was named telepathine, because this happens to be an accurate description of the effects induced by its ingestion: people become telepathic. I don't know what happens when they take an isolated alkaloid, but in the whole complex totality of the experience, what happens is manifold and farther out than any far-out far-outness you can think up (the neocortex can't think up what ayahuasca can show and tell, no way... it's not equpped) -- but the simplest thing that happens is, you might gain telepathic rapport with other members of the tribe... er... participants of the ceremony.

 

This was the very first thing that happened to me, actually, before the rest of it kicked in. I was trying to determine whether anything at all was going to happen or not (I had no nausea whatsoever and wasn't sure if I under-dosed or something, initially), when out of the blue I knew the name of someone present in the maloka. That was pretty weird, because we had arrived in the jungle late that day and, after resting a bit, proceeded straight to the ceremony without having met anyone else. So, not only had I never met that guy ever before, not only did I not even know he existed, but, the ceremony taking place in complete darkness, couldn't possibly tell him from the next blob of darkness, whether empty or filled with a human form. All of a sudden I knew there's someone by such and such name there (a rare one) and called him, mentally, by his name. He approached and said, "yes? you called me?" -- without saying a word. "Well, I called out such and such name..." "Right. That's my last name." And so on. We were in telepathic communication with this guy for the rest of the ceremony. This couldn't be "collective unconscious" since a rare last name that happens to have personal significance for me (for reasons that make the presence of a guy with this name a LOT weirder to begin with -- he simply shouldn't have been there by accident... yet he was) can't be explained away like that at all.

 

So, the next thing that might happen is, you gain telepathic access to other beings, and not all of them are necessarily humans. Not all of them are necessarily on this planet. Not all of them are necessarily in this dimension. Not all of them are necessarily restricted in their activities by ANY dimensionality. And so on. There's no limits. At least in my experience. But there's a commonality of experience for people who happen to get to the same place. There's places where She will take those who She thinks won't lose their mind from visiting them. It's like a restricted area where an investigator must go, so She will take you there unless She knows it will undo your marbles. One such place is where she rarely takes "civilized" people, but all indigenous visitors discuss it the way you'd discuss a Starbucks on the corner with your friends who've all been there done that. She took me there. I have no more way to "prove" it than the fact that I dropped by a Starbucks today at lunchtime and had a cup of coffee and a pepperjack cheese croissant.

 

Nothing of this nature can be proved except experientially, and that's why "objectivity" is the biggest joke ever told/sold to the dumbest species in the universe, which is us. Sacred plants remove the Great Wall between "subjective" and "objective" and unite participants in an experience that is both and neither. They have been vilified precisely because enslavers of humanity fear only one thing -- a humanity united, a humanity no longer divided into "subjective" and "objective" experience, a humanity that is both and neither and much greater than either and greater than the sum of both and greater than anything they could do anything about. Our current state is the direct outcome of deforestation -- what did you think civilization was all about?..

[Patrick Brown]

Well there's a problem here as we need to differentiate between one shared reality and a shared group reality! For sure the world functions reasonable well as we all accept the objective world. Now I'm not denying that isolated groups can have a different view of the world and that this view may even have mystical other worldly elements but is their reality more real or just different?

 

In the mystery schools they often allude to the evolutionary streams which the sparks of consciousness travel as they fall. These streams are related to plants and animals so perhaps we should bear in mind that an individual totem as well as a tribal totem will play an important part in this "shared reality". Basically elements of their conscious experience are specific to them as a group and whereas an outsider may experience the prescribed effects of a substance but not understand them as being meaningful.

 

I do believe that we share a holographic consciousness but that there are layers. So we can move from our ego-centric consciousness to a group consciousness and then to a planetary consciousness and so on.

 

But lets get back to the question of whether these elementals are individual entities or just thought forms created by the individual or group. Whether beings of light, Buddha's or demons I still think they are figments of our imagination! Of course Jung would argue that they can be helpful as manifest aspects of our consciousness and perhaps even bridging the conscious and unconsious minds. So perhaps these ethereal beings serve a purpose by setting up a kind of dialogue between the dream world and the waking world? In that context I don't see a problem but it's when people give them sentience that problems may arise, we're talking split and multiple personalities together with psychotic behaviour.

 

If there's nothing wrong then don't mess. Of course people have and will experiment with altered states but I think along with all the other mystical baggage it's not really of any value. What killed the cat?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Patrick Brown

[Jetsun]

The main purpose of the power plants is to heal you and bring you to balance on all levels, the fundamental job of the Shaman is that of a healer and the primary thing that Shamen get taught when they interact with these spirit beings is how to heal people and not to become some holy religious leader or spiritual messenger. This sort of healing is not something meditation will achieve easily or it may take years to achieve what the power plant could do in one night, so to demonise the whole area of power plants as karmically bad is ridiculous in my view, it's like saying the doctor or psychologist is bad for helping you with your problems.

 

I do agree you are unlikely to be enlightened by taking them but they may shift your perception enough to put you on the right path, this is the purpose they served in the Castaneda books as Don Juan realised that Carlos had potential but his perception was too rigidly fixed in one place by lifes conditionings for normal methods to break through so his training began with power plants just as an introduction to loosen his perceptio, or assemblage point as they call it.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Jetsun

[Gerard]

a little bird told me that the absolute worst karmic sin of them all is taking the side of the oppressor against the oppressed. If you examine the history of destruction of shamanism by institutionalized religions, and figure out who the oppressor has been, consistently, for many hundreds of blood-soaked years, in this long and merciless story of enslavement of the human spirit, maybe you will want to change sides someday... Till if/then, I'm resting my case.

 

Neither Shamanism nor Religion are needed. Go past both and the ego (the greatest hindrance of all) and you'll find enligthenment.

 

 

 

The main purpose of the power plants is to heal you and bring you to balance on all levels, the fundamental job of the Shaman is that of a healer and the primary thing that Shamen get taught when they interact with these spirit beings is how to heal people and not to become some holy religious leader or spiritual messenger. This sort of healing is not something meditation will achieve easily or it may take years to achieve what the power plant could do in one night, so to demonise the whole area of power plants as karmically bad is ridiculous in my view, it's like saying the doctor or psychologist is bad for helping you with your problems.

 

Care to re-read my post instead of acting like a victim?

 

Thanks.

[konchog uma]

power plants, even cannabis, are no free ride. Nothing's free, that's important to remember. I have never heard of a free ride in life.

 

Sure you can have awesome experiences with plants and compounds, but all things being equal, i don't like relying on externals for my bliss either. The price, even of cannabis, is high in my evaluation.

 

Interestingly, it pops up over and over again that people who espouse drug use as a valid path cite Carlos Casteneda's work as some kind of proof that it works. Sure it works, but if you read those books carefully, Don Juan Matus told Carlos he was only going to use the power plants because he was so stupid and blocked that he needed a shit ton of help from nature, and at another time told him power plants to irrevocable damage to the energy body and are only used when absolutely necessary.

 

I used to use them, and when they told me to stop, I stopped, and having lived on both sides of the line, I am much much much happier on the purist (hahah "square"... try "responsible") side. I am not thirsty for externals to give me bliss because i have learned to tap into sources that do not require drugs at all.

 

Maybe nothing's free but i feel a lot free-er without power plants in my life.. just 2c from a bum

[Taomeow]

Neither Shamanism nor Religion are needed. Go past both and the ego (the greatest hindrance of all) and you'll find enligthenment.

 

As a taoist traditionalist I hold no belief in the existence of an "ego" -- my psychophysiology contains jing, qi, Greater shen, Lesser (heart) shen, hun, po, yi, zhi, each of these wuxing-propelled and wuji-taiji-cycling between xiantian and houtian. Consequently, I can't go past something that's not there to find something I'm not looking for.

[michael245]

I use qi retention too,at the same time I embrace my ego.For those who hate ego,my advice to you is to try inflating it for once and see how it feels.Karma consequences is a belief that is not provable at all.

[konchog uma]

I use qi retention too,at the same time I embrace my ego.For those who hate ego,my advice to you is to try inflating it for once and see how it feels.Karma consequences is a belief that is not provable at all.

 

what is qi retention? I've heard of semen retention but never qi retention.

 

I'm not sure what the ego and karma have to do with each other.

 

as to only believing what is "provable" good luck with that. One day science will evolve to encompass reality on realities terms, i hope you live that long.

[Immortal4life]

Hi there,

 

Let me give you my personal experience on the matter:

 

Relying on exogenic substances to manipulate consciousness will create dependence and it will not promote your spiritual growth from a karmic perspective. In other words, you will further dig a hole in your psiritual evolution as you will stunt that growth which only results from the noble eightfold path:

 

You are suggesting that there is only one legitimate path of spirituality. I am not so sure about that.

 

Is it true that all consciousness altering plants will lead to dependence? I don't think so because there are so many instances where such plants are used in an initiatory fashion, or ceremonial fashion. In such cases it is just like a final push when someone is ready. Then, when the person comes back, maybe they will have gotten some new insights into their being and nature, and will then begin to gradually change their lives. Also, developing an understanding of and relationship with plants should make you more aware and connected to all things by extension.

 

 

1. Wisdom

 

2. Ethical conduct

 

You can still practice these things regardless of whether your path incorporates the use of consciousness altering plants.

 

3. Mental development. This is where substance use will fail in terms of "right effort", "right mindfulness" and "right concentration."

 

I understand this perspective, that natural methods are the best way to go. To develop a pure consciousness, pure awareness, and pure state of mind.

 

However, more and more I wonder if there is truly such a thing. The mind will always be imperfect. In any path I have ever seen, each had it's own specific state of consciousness. Methods with mantras for example place you in a certain state of consciousness. Methods of focusing the mind on energy and higher frequencies puts one in another state of consciousness. Even different martial art schools place one in a different state of mind with different intents. No two schools' state of consciousness is ever exactly the same. What makes you think your altered state, is the highest and most complete state?

 

Another important factor of the mind is the link between the mind and emotions. The mind must be able to keep emotions under control and become detached from them. I fail to see why a plant substance could not be useful with this. In fact people taking Ayahuasca say they eventually have to let themselves learn to give in and just accept the experience. Sounds like it could be a useful way of learning to overcome fear.

 

Perhaps Ayahuasca ceremonies, and attainments toward enlightenment, are not so different like you think they are.

 

If you are after directly exploring higher states of consciousness and being in touch with beings dwelling in either our three dimensional realm or on others, then train to transfer your conscious state to your astral body during sleep (yin phase of our human existence). For some astral projection is almost a natural exercise, but for most of us it requires a dedicated and disciplined practice. Connecting to the instant switch from the yang to the yin cycle is not easy and also the energy required to travel in the astral is also significant, which explains why a daily meditation routine and internal energy work that builds up our Qi and refines the essence "jing-qi-shen" is needed in order to "remain" during the yin phase.

 

Dragon Gate Daoists, Yogis belonging to the Samkhya school (Raja Yoga) and Tibetan Buddhists actively incorporate astral work in their spiritual practices in order to overcome the fear of death (loss of ego) and acquire higher knowledge of the workings of the Universe. These people don't use hallucinogenic substances; they don't need to as they put a lot of effort into daily meditation, and their karma will grow as well as their spiritual insight and wisdom.

 

I personally would refer to this final group for advice on the matter.

 

If you are really interested in exploring those realms and our physical Universe introduce in your daily regime lucid dreaming and astral projection practices. There is plenty of free literature online on this subject and a very active and supportive forum

 

Good luck.

 

Lucid Dreaming does not have to be incompatible with using plant substances. There are many herbs, and health food products, that people use to have better dreams, sleep better etc. If changing between Yin and Yang is so difficult, why not learn to use herbs to aid you?

 

Not all plants are as strong as Ayahuasca, some may just stimulate someone a bit, but keep their mind totally clear and pure.

 

So, the way I am seeing it is this.....How do you know your enlightenment is the highest achievement or highest enlightenment? Isn't it possible that you can always learn more from new sources? Why is your path so incompatible with others?

 

Also, what do you do after enlightenment? Do you just leave your body and never come back? Why not develop your full potential and full power as a human being? Maybe the Shamans have something that would be helpful to you. Maybe experiencing Ayahuasca could give you an extra push, add to your enlightnement. Maybe the Shamans have abilities you could pick up and develop.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Immortal4life

[michael245]

Anavatma,breathe retention,I take a deep breathe in like this then I blow out like this ...more oxygen for the lungs..

[konchog uma]

Anavatma,breathe retention,I take a deep breathe in like this then I blow out like this ...more oxygen for the lungs..

 

oh okay, i like your emoticon descriptions i've heard of breath retention i guess i just didn't make the connection.

[Nanashi]

It is interesting when something natural, an idea or an object, can be considered profane or sacred depending on the team. It really is a subjective opinion, since there are certain people who cannot handle certain tools properly.