The Supernaturals

[Birch]

I think any finger too heavily pointing either towards something or away from it ought to be brought into question since we know that dualism is reductionist. What does telling someone they have an ego that ought to be gotten rid of accomplish? What does pointing to achievement (enlightenment) that is extremely difficult and you probably won't get there in this lifetime accomplish? What does telling someone they cannot practice their sacred practices accomplish?

[Gerard]

I understand this perspective, that natural methods are the best way to go. To develop a pure consciousness, pure awareness, and pure state of mind.

 

However, more and more I wonder if there is truly such a thing.

 

 

Yes, it truly exists (nirvana, source/Dao, moksha) but to get there...pffff, it's a hell of a long and difficult journey since you'll be facing all your demons (fear of losing the ego and all desires) and you also need a bit of luck to tap into that state which passes in front of you as fast as lightning and then you grasp it and become free, like a quantum leap, the so-called Eureka!

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/resonance.html

[Patrick Brown]

 

This is all getting very tangled!

 

All I can say is follow your heart but also make sure you keep a mirror nearby!

 

[manitou]

Sometimes I wonder if mushrooms aren't the 'brain' of the planet.

 

Looking at it from way out in space, we are all the children of the sun; we are stardust that has somehow been animated. If the evolution of the earth began with fire cooling, and cooling, and life forming, a little at a time, then we are all a part of that dynamic.

 

I've heard it said that there are huge mushroom fields under the earth in certain parts of the planet. I can't help but think that perhaps there's an analogy to the mushroom of the earth and the brain of the human being somewhat analogous.

 

When we tap into the mushroom (or a vine, or even cannabis) perhaps this is the very joinder between man and plant and the earth's intelligence. We receive open-mindedness, we receive visions, we do receive wisdom. But it's my experience that the information or insight comes at the level that the person is ready for.

 

After all, we and all life on the planet are in unison.

[Immortal4life]

Have you ever looked into this theory?

http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2008/09/jesus-christ-magic-mushroom-part-1.html

Edited November 11, 2011 by Immortal4life

[konchog uma]

Have you ever looked into this theory?

http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2008/09/jesus-christ-magic-mushroom-part-1.html

 

you might like Food of the Gods by Terrence McKenna if you haven't read it already!

[manitou]

Have you ever looked into this theory?

http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2008/09/jesus-christ-magic-mushroom-part-1.html

 

Well, not until now.....

 

 

YESSSSS!!!!!!

 

 

This ties in so beautifully with my shamanic half and it also satisfies my detective brain. I fully agree with everything there - I've always been of the belief that the prophets of old were granted their visions while under the influence of something wonderful and strange, lol.

 

The manna thing is perfect. Mushrooms. Of course.

 

I honestly believe all our various thought-bubbles, especially involving the religious beginnings of all thought, stem from mushrooms and similar substances; ayahuasca, cannabis, etc. This is truly a perfect way for the earth, our mother, to hand down certain types of information about the way things work. These are the types of things, the nondescribable things, that are conveyed to us through the plant kingdom.

 

The Sage understands the workings of the Tao. Throughout history, certainly many plants have had their say to men who are willing to listen.

 

Thanks to both of you -

[Birch]

It's an interesting site.

I've been pondering the successive replacement of reality with symbols recently.

And in some cases the replacing of symbols with other symbols that run counter to the original symbol.

Then i end up confused.

[Seth Ananda]

Hmm, I am glad for my few experiences with Aya, {and everything else I occasionally tried over the years, peyote, psilosyb's, aminitas...}

But seriously my days with anything like those are over...

 

I know a lot of people who go head over heels for Aya, and to me it seems {meaning it may have nothing to do with actual reality, lol, just how it seems} that they are finally getting to 'Experience' something:

Bliss, Healing, Entities, Energies and so on.

 

I find this a bit sad. Most I know have never had any form of real Sadhana in their lives, so never really had any Interesting or 'spiritual' experiences.. So then Aya comes along and all of a sudden it becomes the Be all and end all of everything...

 

I guess I was fortunate. I had already gone far further many many times into realms of bliss, energy, spirit, than a mere substance can produce...

 

So although I found It valuable in ways, I could not see what the big fuss was all about. I too prefer el natural! so much deeper and clearer....

 

 

All that said, in the Jungle Junky community I have one friend [out of about 100] who has grown so much with Aya that is is quite amazing to me. He joined Sante Daime a few years ago, and completely took on its world view, and its transformation of him is remarkable..

[Cat Pillar]

Hmm, I am glad for my few experiences with Aya, {and everything else I occasionally tried over the years, peyote, psilosyb's, aminitas...}

But seriously my days with anything like those are over...

 

I know a lot of people who go head over heels for Aya, and to me it seems {meaning it may have nothing to do with actual reality, lol, just how it seems} that they are finally getting to 'Experience' something:

Bliss, Healing, Entities, Energies and so on.

 

I find this a bit sad. Most I know have never had any form of real Sadhana in their lives, so never really had any Interesting or 'spiritual' experiences.. So then Aya comes along and all of a sudden it becomes the Be all and end all of everything...

 

I guess I was fortunate. I had already gone far further many many times into realms of bliss, energy, spirit, than a mere substance can produce...

 

So although I found It valuable in ways, I could not see what the big fuss was all about. I too prefer el natural! so much deeper and clearer....

 

 

All that said, in the Jungle Junky community I have one friend [out of about 100] who has grown so much with Aya that is is quite amazing to me. He joined Sante Daime a few years ago, and completely took on its world view, and its transformation of him is remarkable..

 

You pointed out exactly the main reason I'm interested in things like Ayahuasca and psilocybin. I've never really had any interesting or "spiritual" experiences, and so there's a strong attraction to taking something that purports to deliver such experiences.

 

I'd still rather do it the natural way, although I've never had any luck with the natural way. For whatever reason all this spiritual stuff just doesn't seem to exist for me.

[Seth Ananda]

You pointed out exactly the main reason I'm interested in things like Ayahuasca and psilocybin. I've never really had any interesting or "spiritual" experiences, and so there's a strong attraction to taking something that purports to deliver such experiences.

 

I'd still rather do it the natural way, although I've never had any luck with the natural way. For whatever reason all this spiritual stuff just doesn't seem to exist for me.

Well good luck!

 

And do you have any kind of proper sadhana?

20 mins of watching the breath every couple of days and a few moments of mindfullness while washing the dishes every now and then wont give you any interesting experiences...

 

It can be dangerous to 'hunt' for experiences, but if you really want them, pick a process and do it till something happens... seriously, if it takes you months, just keep at it like a dog at a bone...

lol, 'something' will happen...

[Taomeow]

Seth,

 

you didn't do it with a real shaman, did you?..

 

I'm sure you are right about "some" people being impressed due to getting to experience "something" --

 

but I've experienced pretty much everything before ayahuasca (have you tried giving a natural birth to twins, e.g.? or major surgery with near-death out-of-body adventures? or visits by a spiritual teacher in your dreams who explains taoism to you before you find out it exists it in the waking world? to name a few?) My life has never been about "not enough experiencing," has always been about "too much." And still real ayahuasca (there's different grades of the brew, some are about as potent as two aspirin, and all of the non-shamanically non-traditionally obtained ones are along these lines), in a real shamanic context, with the real deep jungle involved in the experience (95% of all fauna and flora species on Earth reside there -- have you experienced that?) and with a real quest for motivation (not curiosity, not just something different to do, but a quest, a fire in the belly sending you there) -- that's an experience you can't possibly compare to any other if She chooses to open you up. (And She is picky as to who She will initiate and who She will dismiss... some people can take all the right steps and still not get anywhere no matter how many times they try. I've seen it.)

 

I'd still rather do it the natural way, although I've never had any luck with the natural way. For whatever reason all this spiritual stuff just doesn't seem to exist for me.

 

How is a doctrine (like, e.g., buddhism) more natural than a plant in the rain forest?

[Jetsun]

Well good luck!

 

And do you have any kind of proper sadhana?

20 mins of watching the breath every couple of days and a few moments of mindfullness while washing the dishes every now and then wont give you any interesting experiences...

 

It can be dangerous to 'hunt' for experiences, but if you really want them, pick a process and do it till something happens... seriously, if it takes you months, just keep at it like a dog at a bone...

lol, 'something' will happen...

 

For me mediation experiences seem to be of a different taste or realm than the Shamanic, maybe I'm just not experienced enough but meditation experiences are more likely to result in feelings of bliss or oneness while ayahuasca and Shamanism leads you to directly interact with beings in the spiritual realm. I'm not going to pass judgement over which experiences are more important but they seem different to me. I know some Tibetan Buddhists talk about such direct interaction with spiritual beings but that is considered very advanced in meditation I think, I don't know how common it is to have such direct experiences even at advanced stages, I don't hear it talked about much in Buddhism, but the Shamanic and meditation experiences seem different to me.

[Seth Ananda]

Seth,

 

you didn't do it with a real shaman, did you?..

 

 

Does someone held in high regard as an Ayahuascerio {or however one spells that} by the Shipibo count?

I have friends who have lived in there getting trained for over a decade, speak Portuguese and local dialects, and bring back the most potent brew...

 

[三江源]

Baby, bathwater.

 

 

As we become increasingly aware of the amount of sensationalists there are hanging out in the world of 'spiritual practitioners', ie. there are those who accumulate high energy moments and imagine they are accruing anything, when in fact they are acting out consumerism and treading water, its important to know that this doesnt mean EVERYONE is superficial in their experience and understanding, just that a lot are, and they dont know they are, from inside their 'arent I having fun, wow, I'm so cool' zone.

 

An individual with integrity , with te and developed shen, will have an experience which is integratable and furthers wisdom.

 

Others will just have more stories to tell that foster their false sense of specialness.

 

[Cat Pillar]

 

How is a doctrine (like, e.g., buddhism) more natural than a plant in the rain forest?

 

Hmm...you make a good point. Although I don't really adhere to any doctrines, my main interest is in practices that give results. I prefer the flavor of Taoism, though.

 

I'm just wary of mind-altering substances because I don't want them to turn into crutches. I don't want to have to rely on plants and plants alone if I can help it, y'know? Or is that an irrational concern?

 

Well good luck!

 

And do you have any kind of proper sadhana?

20 mins of watching the breath every couple of days and a few moments of mindfullness while washing the dishes every now and then wont give you any interesting experiences...

 

It can be dangerous to 'hunt' for experiences, but if you really want them, pick a process and do it till something happens... seriously, if it takes you months, just keep at it like a dog at a bone...

lol, 'something' will happen...

 

Don't really have a proper sadhana quite yet (had to look that one up.) Most of the practices I'm interested in are transmission-based, so I mostly get by with a somewhat irregular breathing practice until I can make it to a workshop.

 

I was practicing diligently for a few months, but didn't notice any kind of "spiritual" results.

 

Dangerous to hunt experiences? Any more dangerous than leading the average modern American life?

 

but I've experienced pretty much everything before ayahuasca (have you tried giving a natural birth to twins, e.g.? or major surgery with near-death out-of-body adventures? or visits by a spiritual teacher in your dreams who explains taoism to you before you find out it exists it in the waking world? to name a few?) My life has never been about "not enough experiencing," has always been about "too much." And still real ayahuasca (there's different grades of the brew, some are about as potent as two aspirin, and all of the non-shamanically non-traditionally obtained ones are along these lines), in a real shamanic context, with the real deep jungle involved in the experience (95% of all fauna and flora species on Earth reside there -- have you experienced that?) and with a real quest for motivation (not curiosity, not just something different to do, but a quest, a fire in the belly sending you there) -- that's an experience you can't possibly compare to any other if She chooses to open you up. (And She is picky as to who She will initiate and who She will dismiss... some people can take all the right steps and still not get anywhere no matter how many times they try. I've seen it.)

 

I've wondered recently if I'm one of those unlucky ones who are "spiritual rejects." Sure would be disappointing to discover that all the time I've spent in spiritual pursuits was wasted effort.

 

Not that it would stop me from trying anyways. I'm stupid like that.

[Cat Pillar]

Baby, bathwater.

 

 

As we become increasingly aware of the amount of sensationalists there are hanging out in the world of 'spiritual practitioners', ie. there are those who accumulate high energy moments and imagine they are accruing anything, when in fact they are acting out consumerism and treading water, its important to know that this doesnt mean EVERYONE is superficial in their experience and understanding, just that a lot are, and they dont know they are, from inside their 'arent I having fun, wow, I'm so cool' zone.

 

An individual with integrity , with te and developed shen, will have an experience which is integratable and furthers wisdom.

 

Others will just have more stories to tell that foster their false sense of specialness.

 

 

Perhaps this is something I need to be wary of in myself. I don't really think of myself as a "thrill seeker," but I did note a defensive reaction when reading this, so maybe it's something I need to look at.

 

I just think a spiritual experience of some kind would go a long ways toward fueling my motivation. As it is, it's hard to maintain a practice when the world feels like a desert.

[Birch]

Thing is, those "experiences" can a) be scary ("abject terror" is what I'd use to describe some of them) make you question so much that it really interferes with the business of living in this world (i.e. has real social consequences) and c) take some getting used to without losing it:-)

 

My 2cts

[三江源]

Perhaps this is something I need to be wary of in myself. I don't really think of myself as a "thrill seeker," but I did note a defensive reaction when reading this, so maybe it's something I need to look at.

 

I just think a spiritual experience of some kind would go a long ways toward fueling my motivation. As it is, it's hard to maintain a practice when the world feels like a desert.

 

I really understand. Your point about modern american life is certainly contributory to the whole consumerist mind set.

 

I met a lot of american people who have this issue!

 

I am torn between saying something that might sound trite like 'the whole of life is a spiritual experience, it's in your point of view that you will find it.." and 'dont force your fate'.. and saying, 'well, get yourself in to some shamanic states, and start exploring'... only you will know which path is the most conducive to your te.

 

Your honesty is lovely, catpillar, and is a great quality to work from.

[三江源]

Thing is, those "experiences" can a) be scary ("abject terror" is what I'd use to describe some of them) make you question so much that it really interferes with the business of living in this world (i.e. has real social consequences) and c) take some getting used to without losing it:-)

 

My 2cts

 

Really really true.

[Taomeow]

Does someone held in high regard as an Ayahuascerio {or however one spells that} by the Shipibo count?

I have friends who have lived in there getting trained for over a decade, speak Portuguese and local dialects, and bring back the most potent brew...

 

 

Yeah, my point exactly. Your friends aren't living there getting trained for over a decade so as to "experience something," do they? I mean, you wouldn't maintain friendships with people this superficial, would you?

 

I believe you were describing your experience, and I believe it has pretty much nothing in common with mine, not because of a (to quote Cat) "false sense of specialness" of "me" but because of a true sense of specialness of the experience in comparison to many other "experiences of me" I've had, including, um, but not limited to, "spiritual" ones.

 

I think I've said it many times in various shapes and forms and will say it again:

whoever places themselves and their ways above shamanism and its ways has had the Way taken away from them. By force, by deceit, by hook or by crook. Authentic shamanic ways are not to be condescended to from ANY platform. Word.

[lazy cloud]

Word. I also understand that 99.98% will never undertand this.

[三江源]

Yeah, my point exactly. Your friends aren't living there getting trained for over a decade so as to "experience something," do they? I mean, you wouldn't maintain friendships with people this superficial, would you?

 

I believe you were describing your experience, and I believe it has pretty much nothing in common with mine, not because of a (to quote Cat) "false sense of specialness" of "me" but because of a true sense of specialness of the experience in comparison to many other "experiences of me" I've had, including, um, but not limited to, "spiritual" ones.

 

I think I've said it many times in various shapes and forms and will say it again:

whoever places themselves and their ways above shamanism and its ways has had the Way taken away from them. By force, by deceit, by hook or by crook. Authentic shamanic ways are not to be condescended to from ANY platform. Word.

 

I cant say 'word' cos I'm English. So I'll say... Top hole!

[Jetsun]

 

I think I've said it many times in various shapes and forms and will say it again:

whoever places themselves and their ways above shamanism and its ways has had the Way taken away from them. By force, by deceit, by hook or by crook. Authentic shamanic ways are not to be condescended to from ANY platform. Word.

 

I do more or less agree but in some circumstances it can be a mistake to over glamorise Shamanism, i'm not saying that is going on in this thread but it seems to be quite common for many Westerners to go to an Amazonian Shaman not find the moral holy spiritual man they were expecting.

 

In my own research before I went to Peru I found many stories of Shaman taking advantage of nieve trusting Westerners, one story I read one Shaman managed to get one trusting young American to buy his entire healing compound and tricked him to sign over all the deeds to the land worth thousands of dollars; another Shaman would half way through his healing sessions tell the patient he was working on that he had discovered an illness in one their family members and would ask for extra payment to heal it remotely, so effectively emotionally blackmailing them into paying twice. Some would even purposely cause illness in people so they would have to pay the Shaman to get it healed.

 

The town of Iquitos in Peru is probably the Ayahuasca Shamanism capital of the world with healing centres around every corner, but when you dig into the undercurrent of what is really going on there between all the Shaman there is a massive undercurrent of jealously, competition and hostility between many of them, which can extend to direct attacks. If you read about many of the more "famous" Shaman they nearly all talk about having to defend themselves from many attacks from rivals who send what they call "magic darts" at each other in the spirit realm,. Many of them spend a lot of time in spiritual warfare with each other and are not above many of the petty base emotional states.

 

One account of a Ayahuasquero apprentiship I read the writer said that at a point in your training you are tempted with extreme power and promises of wealth etc from the spirits and many people fail this test and end up using the power and knowledge they gain in that realm for their own personal benefit and egotistical aims. One taxi driver I spoke to in Iquitos said that you only really find the real genuine powerful Shaman deep within the rainforest these days as so many within the towns have been corrupted by money and power, so there is nothing to say that if you walk the path of a Shaman you will come out as a particularly compassionate or morally balanced person as the power you are dealing with is so tempting you can fall off the right path very easily.

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited September 26, 2020 by Ocean Form