The Supernaturals

[Taomeow]

I do more or less agree but in some circumstances it can be a mistake to over glamorise Shamanism, i'm not saying that is going on in this thread but it seems to be quite common for many Westerners to go to an Amazonian Shaman not find the moral holy spiritual man they were expecting.

 

In my own research before I went to Peru I found many stories of Shaman taking advantage of nieve trusting Westerners, one story I read one Shaman managed to get one trusting young American to buy his entire healing compound and tricked him to sign over all the deeds to the land worth thousands of dollars; another Shaman would half way through his healing sessions tell the patient he was working on that he had discovered an illness in one their family members and would ask for extra payment to heal it remotely, so effectively emotionally blackmailing them into paying twice. Some would even purposely cause illness in people so they would have to pay the Shaman to get it healed.

 

The town of Iquitos in Peru is probably the Ayahuasca Shamanism capital of the world with healing centres around every corner, but when you dig into the undercurrent of what is really going on there between all the Shaman there is a massive undercurrent of jealously, competition and hostility between many of them, which can extend to direct attacks. If you read about many of the more "famous" Shaman they nearly all talk about having to defend themselves from many attacks from rivals who send what they call "magic darts" at each other in the spirit realm,. Many of them spend a lot of time in spiritual warfare with each other and are not above many of the petty base emotional states.

 

One account of a Ayahuasquero apprentiship I read the writer said that at a point in your training you are tempted with extreme power and promises of wealth etc from the spirits and many people fail this test and end up using the power and knowledge they gain in that realm for their own personal benefit and egotistical aims. One taxi driver I spoke to in Iquitos said that you only really find the real genuine powerful Shaman deep within the rainforest these days as so many within the towns have been corrupted by money and power, so there is nothing to say that if you walk the path of a Shaman you will come out as a particularly compassionate or morally balanced person as the power you are dealing with is so tempting you can fall off the right path very easily.

 

Yeah, if someone is looking for a "holy man," the place to go is elsewhere -- a church, an ashram, a lunatic asylum... A shaman is a force of nature, and to judge a shaman is to judge a force of nature. Where would one climb to position oneself higher than a force of nature that creates and destroys, heals and kills, deceives with mimicry and false tracks, hides behind so many veils, and tells the truth only to those who go all the way to find out? Only to those who realize the whole of their true nature, not a half-assed "nice try"? You can't tell from a three-week-old embryo whether it's a frog or a prince. You have to go all the way to find out. Shamans do. Fakes don't. Fakes are reprehensible, real shamans are beyond judgement, they don't respond to the demands of the most popular morality of the moment, they respond to the demands of the morality of eternity.

 

Too huge a subject for a forum post, as usual...

[Seth Ananda]

Don't get me wrong Taomeow, I think Shamanism is great, I myself just prefer the non ethnogen forms, like the Qero, who hold one of my all time favourite traditions...

 

And I dont see it doing much for [most] of the westerners who take it, even the ones who 'She' talks too, as she did to me. But as I said I do think it works well for the occasional person...

 

My friends go trapsing off to the jungle, to drink and train with the elders, and sometimes they come back, well just really a bit screwy... They [most of them] seem to be gettting more scattered and etherial, the more brew they drink...

 

 

and to Jetsun, the Vajrayana techniques, and many various energetic kinds of traditions [like the Qero], have superb methods for Interacting with spirits. I personally find these safer, as I do think it is good to not be off ones face when meeting such beings... The chances for possession are just to great...

[Birch]

That's an interesting point Seth. I had a chat with another bum about what I'd call "spiritual forays" and his take was they could weaken people. My current perspective is that as an incarnate being, unless I have stuff to do that requires "spiritual forays" then going on such just for kicks makes me a bit of a useless tourist. Equally, I do not appreciate "spiritual" incursions into my life unless I have stuff to do that requires it. Or stuff that is required of me? So "who" would decide when and what is "required" of me in the spiritual sense? Last time I checked I was not leading people, nor curing them of anything, nor protecting them from anything. I mean it doesn't say "as below, so above" does it?

I do think that people ought to get healed from whatever they're suffering from though. And there's IMO far too much suffering going on.

[Seth Ananda]

That's an interesting point Seth. I had a chat with another bum about what I'd call "spiritual forays" and his take was they could weaken people. My current perspective is that as an incarnate being, unless I have stuff to do that requires "spiritual forays" then going on such just for kicks makes me a bit of a useless tourist. Equally, I do not appreciate "spiritual" incursions into my life unless I have stuff to do that requires it. Or stuff that is required of me? So "who" would decide when and what is "required" of me in the spiritual sense? Last time I checked I was not leading people, nor curing them of anything, nor protecting them from anything. I mean it doesn't say "as below, so above" does it?

I do think that people ought to get healed from whatever they're suffering from though. And there's IMO far too much suffering going on.

Interesting points...

I sometimes wonder as well about the wisdom of seeking out such experiences, but then I think about how enriching all such experiences have been for me.

I tend to think life should be interesting in many directions, and the deeper life of the mind/spirit is one of the most Interesting subjects of all.

 

I have seen studies on altered states and mental health, which claimed there is a direct correlation between lower levels of depression, and increased levels of happiness and meaning and sense of connection to life, in people who regularly experience deeper altered states, {if i remember rightly, the studies were on people who used non ethnogen shamanic trance techniques}.

If ones brainwaves never really change, I think ones mind slowly becomes ossified... lol

 

I think humans have a need to experience altered states and have bizarre experiences every so often. But in cultures where this is not really allowed, people fulfil this need with alcoholism [a fairly boring altered state that drowns out and numbs, rather than enriches]

and teens get driven to self medicate into altered state through whatever destructive substances are available... That's very sad to me.

[Birch]

Interesting points...

I sometimes wonder as well about the wisdom of seeking out such experiences, but then I think about how enriching all such experiences have been for me.

I tend to think life should be interesting in many directions, and the deeper life of the mind/spirit is one of the most Interesting subjects of all.

 

I have seen studies on altered states and mental health, which claimed there is a direct correlation between lower levels of depression, and increased levels of happiness and meaning and sense of connection to life, in people who regularly experience deeper altered states, {if i remember rightly, the studies were on people who used non ethnogen shamanic trance techniques}.

If ones brainwaves never really change, I think ones mind slowly becomes ossified... lol

 

I think humans have a need to experience altered states and have bizarre experiences every so often. But in cultures where this is not really allowed, people fulfil this need with alcoholism [a fairly boring altered state that drowns out and numbs, rather than enriches]

and teens get driven to self medicate into altered state through whatever destructive substances are available... That's very sad to me.

Well, IMO if the ecstatic and the imagination are lost to the grind of "all work and no play" then yes, you end up with a pretty fed up Jack to whom you can then sell ecstatic imaginary stuff. What's more dangerous, Jack the ecstactic who will actually act on his imagination and creativity or Jack the junky who will buy whatever? I contend it's the former:-)

[Gerard]

I know some Tibetan Buddhists talk about such direct interaction with spiritual beings but that is considered very advanced in meditation I think, I don't know how common it is to have such direct experiences even at advanced stages, I don't hear it talked about much in Buddhism, but the Shamanic and meditation experiences seem different to me.

 

Easier than you think. Training is involved of course, but better for your health, no need to travel to exotic locations and worship some self-proclaimed guru. Knowledge at the tip of your fingers. The practice is called astral projection, which you'll experience every time you are asleep anyway; the difference is that when you are not you'll transfer part of your consciousness to the astral (projected) body.

 

The Universe is teaming with life. I have encountered numerous life forms via remote distance viewing and astral projection: Blue humanoids, not sure in which planet/constellation they live but they have been spotted by others astral projectors (check out this thread: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/the_higher_dimensions-t31153.0.html); greys, ghosts, nature spirits, angels and Gods. No need to take any hallucinogenics, just the correct training and knowledge.

 

Tons of free information online and a very helpful and kind community.

 

Regards.

 

[Taomeow]

Easier than you think. Training is involved of course, but better for your health, no need to travel to exotic locations and worship some self-proclaimed guru. Knowledge at the tip of your fingers. The practice is called astral projection, which you'll experience every time you are asleep anyway; the difference is that when you are not you'll transfer part of your consciousness to the astral (projected) body.

 

The Universe is teaming with life. I have encountered numerous life forms via remote distance viewing and astral projection: Blue humanoids, not sure in which planet/constellation they live but they have been spotted by others astral projectors (check out this thread: http://www.astralpul...t31153.0.html); greys, ghosts, nature spirits, angels and Gods. No need to take any hallucinogenics, just the correct training and knowledge.

 

Tons of free information online and a very helpful and kind community.

 

Regards.

 

 

The taoist tradition attributes most cases of possession to astral projection by amateurs, whether purposeful or accidental. While the spirit goes a-roaming, the body is left unattended, and can easily get invaded. On the other hand, a traditionally untrained projector risks losing parts of the spirit if he or she does not know how to safely return them home -- and upon waking up is diminished in spirit without knowing it. This practice is considered to be extremely dangerous and in the traditional setting is never undertaken without multiple layers of protection -- you learn to draw talismans, use a spirit gourd, employ stone warriors, assume the form of a ghost- and demon-fighting deity, make a pact with the tiger spirit, recite scriptures, and so on -- and when all of the protective measures are in place, you take baby steps, e.g. learn to astral project to the four corners of your bedroom and practice control of your motions and whereabouts before venturing farther and farther away from home.

 

I have reasons to believe that astral projection is considerably riskier to one's health than vegetalista curandero practices. I've met so many really "weird" types among the "spiritual" dabblers... deficient in this or that spirit, Heart Shen unaccounted for, Yi missing, and some strange obsessions have come to take their place... I believe some exhibit classic signs of possession -- e.g. people who eat only raw foods (ghosts can't consume the essence of cooked foods), or... but you probably know what kind of "weirdness cum spirituality" I'm talking about, right?..

[Birch]

Those 'blue' people wouldn't happen to be able to shoot liquid blue plasma/laser light out of their eyes and mouths would they??

 

I met a couple in a dream. One was Chinese and the other was almost certainly 'Hindu'. They were very annoyed at me and I got a terrible fright but then I remembered I was only dreaming them so it didn't matter.

[Birch]

"employ stone warriors, assume the form of a ghost- and demon-fighting deity"

 

 

That big pink Qi-gong book mentions posting a couple of 'warriors' at your side before sleeping. Another one is a sort of an infrared 'mosquito net' you set up to sleep under (which is pretty weird of itself, I don't know when that practice dates from!)

 

I suppose all of this precautionary stuff would have been more obvious at the time that video games and movies did not exist. I'm almost sure that many people these days might mistake an actual spirit for a fake one due to their belief they're dreaming of video games or a movie they saw that day when they're actually in/or meeting entities from another dimension.

 

Even more bizarre IMO is how 'video-game' some of the Ayahausca imagery seems to be.

[Gerard]

The taoist tradition attributes most cases of possession to astral projection by amateurs, whether purposeful or accidental.

 

Not your experience, I suppose.

 

While the spirit goes a-roaming, the body is left unattended, and can easily get invaded.

 

Nonsense. Your spirit never leaves the body (that only occurs during a NDE-near death experience or after physical death), it is your projected consciousness during sleep but you are being aware of it. Using Daoist jargon, transferring yang consciousness to a yin state of being.

 

 

The rest of your post: you live in a world of fear and no direct experience of the matter. Nothing, I repeat nothing can hurt, damage or threaten LIGHT and LOVE. And our higher selves are purely love and light. Try to hurt that. Even dark forces have light-Buddha nature within, they are just totally unaware of it, totally dominated by their egos and power of their lower selves, strong lower chakras vibrations which numb higher chakras vibrations.

 

Following spiritual traditions other than your own experience and practice will only hinder us from connecting with our higher selves fully and for good. Why do you think is spiritual growth so difficult? Let me give you the answer: following someone else's path (Religion), we will also follow one that's been used by thousands of people before us; and with so many people choosing those same paths it has caused the belief-systems to become ingrained into our thoughts and beliefs about everything. So to keep things simple and help us succeed as souls in search of their true nature, we must cut through all the belief-system boundaries to let us experience things directly.

 

I've met so many really "weird" types among the "spiritual" dabblers... deficient in this or that spirit, Heart Shen unaccounted for, Yi missing, and some strange obsessions have come to take their place... I believe some exhibit classic signs of possession -- e.g. people who eat only raw foods (ghosts can't consume the essence of cooked foods), or... but you probably know what kind of "weirdness cum spirituality" I'm talking about, right?..

 

Reasons:

 

1. Confused by tons of information, poor souls.

 

2. Many end up in TaoBums and get even more confused than before.

 

3. They read too many books and listen to others' experiences instead of their own.

 

4. They don't practice enough root work:

 

http://www.baguaquanlessons.com/videos2443329255.html

 

Solid foundations are missing, hence imbalances occur. The videos kindly uploaded by Baguazhang teacher, He Jinghan, are a real gem, pure gold.

 

Possession, true spiritual possessions are VERY RARE and certainly are not caused by astral projection. You Taomeow are projecting every time you go to bed, but are not in control/aware of it, if that's the case you, I and the rest of humanity are all possessed by demons and hungry ghosts.

 

I would call them energetic imbalances.

 

Take care,

 

Edited November 15, 2011 by Gerard

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Thank you for sharing!

Helpful!

[Gerard]

Those 'blue' people wouldn't happen to be able to shoot liquid blue plasma/laser light out of their eyes and mouths would they??

 

You must have had a bad astral trip.

 

Not at all, higher evolved beings with blue skin and the one I interacted was a female and had some sort of wreath on her head. I will draw a picture, uploaded and share it here.

 

She was staring at me, like the silver skinned angel and the unicorns (they are vibrating in our Earth but at a higher frequency level) I came across with while doing standing meditation in front of a tree.

[Gerard]

Sorry I am not in the mood to draw, also feel too lazy for that aside from being hopeless at it.

 

I did a quick google search for beings of higher astral planes inhabiting other constellations, and came across this site:

 

http://etsculptor.com/blog/sculptures/star-people/

 

Found this:

 

 

She didn't look exactly the same but similar, just she had a large wavy wreath and her neck was just a bit longer than the one in the photo.

 

The blue skin Pleiadian people are exceptionally spiritual, living in peace and unconditional Love through always being in the Light of the Source.

 

Pleiadian hey? Very interesting.

 

I like that. Beautiful We need more people like her in this barren planet.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

 

Nonsense.

 

The rest of your post: you live in a world of fear and no direct experience of the matter.

 

 

And so on.

 

Since you're an expert on the kind of world I live in, I may not need to inform you, but just in case you were momentarily distracted and not monitoring my world of fear at this particular moment:

in this world, you are the first-ever taobum to make it to my Ignore list. Congratulations!

[Gerard]

And so on.

 

Since you're an expert on the kind of world I live in, I may not need to inform you, but just in case you were momentarily distracted and not monitoring my world of fear at this particular moment:

in this world, you are the first-ever taobum to make it to my Ignore list. Congratulations!

 

Hmmm. I respect your decision but this attitude will not help you grow spiritually.

 

Take care and you can put me back to your non-ignore list anytime.

 

Love and light

[Birch]

You must have had a bad astral trip.

 

Not at all, higher evolved beings with blue skin and the one I interacted was a female and had some sort of wreath on her head. I will draw a picture, uploaded and share it here.

 

She was staring at me, like the silver skinned angel and the unicorns (they are vibrating in our Earth but at a higher frequency level) I came across with while doing standing meditation in front of a tree.

 

Well, I was asleep :-)

 

I should also add that underground crocodiles do not make good pets (they bite people on the neck).

 

What I've been trying to do is not 'consume' any obvious sources of imagery to see whether I can tell where the 'stuff' in my dreams is coming from. It is kind of interesting but I don't put a lot of stock in it - except when the 'ah, am I really dreaming??' thing happens.

[Gerard]

Well, I was asleep :-)

 

That explains it You are not fully in control, so emotions get mixed up with the greater picture.

 

The best thing is to train ourselves to transfer our active consciousness to the astral body...if your interest is in this area, but I feel it is a very important part of our spiritual path and to check whether we are progressing or not; for instance, someone who projects to the lower planes (hellish realms) then they need to work more on their attachments to this plane (money, lust, etc.) and sense of ego, whereas those who project to the higher planes are on the right track. And I can assure you that this 3D earthy plane is a low ranking one, it feels like hell when you come from above.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Gerard

[Birch]

That explains it You are not fully in control, so emotions get mixed up with the greater picture.

 

The best thing is to train ourselves to transfer our active consciousness to the astral body...if your interest is in this area, but I feel it is a very important part of our spiritual path and to check whether we are progressing or not; for instance, someone who projects to the lower planes (hellish realms) then they need to work more on their attachments to this plane (money, lust, etc.) and sense of ego, whereas those who project to the higher planes are in the right path. And I can assure you that this 3D earthy plane is a low ranking one, it feels like hell when you come from above.

 

Gerard, really. I'm just asleep. Resting. It's ok. There's no hell involved It's more like experimentation.

[Gerard]

Gerard, really. I'm just asleep. Resting. It's ok. There's no hell involved It's more like experimentation.

 

It's OK, Kate I understand. Keep experimenting and making sure that the line between sleeping (as in resting) and being awake (as in being physically active) becomes less and less noticeable.