Entry-level Taoism?

[Muqtada]

I've read some Tao philosophy but the area I live in is devoid of such things. Are there practices, like forms of meditation, that accompany Tao? How do I go about learning about Tao philosophy or practices further? Do you have any good resources for a Tao beginner? I've been lurking through the forums on and off since I joined and it would appear that I don't know even a quarter as much as I thought I did.

 

Any help would be appreciated,

Thank you

[Marblehead]

I've read some Tao philosophy but the area I live in is devoid of such things. Are there practices, like forms of meditation, that accompany Tao? How do I go about learning about Tao philosophy or practices further? Do you have any good resources for a Tao beginner? I've been lurking through the forums on and off since I joined and it would appear that I don't know even a quarter as much as I thought I did.

 

Any help would be appreciated,

Thank you

 

Hi Muqtada,

 

Well, we just finished our study of all the Chapters of the Tao Te Ching. I think we had a good discussion of these and as you read through them you can always ask a question in that Chapter's thread and I am sure you will get some responses.

 

We are doing The Chuang Tzu now so you can always ask questions or make comments to the ones we have already done as well as all the forthcoming Chapter/Sections.

 

I will almost always respond to any Taoist Philosophy question anyone starts a thread for.

 

To other aspects, ask your question or make your comment and I am sure there will be someone, or many, who respond to your post.

[Elliot]

Hello Muqtada

If you haven't already, perhaps exploring different translations of the Tao Te Ching, there are so many to choose from.

A translation I really enjoy is Jonathan Star's Tao Te Ching: Definitive Edition.

For meditation, find something that suits you. watch videos, experiment with what you like.

Deng Ming Dao's 365 Tao: Daily Meditations is a good book to read daily, one page at a time. I myself am up to 248, i bought it in February it is recommended to start at the beginning of a new year.

Wayne Dyer has a book called "Change Your Thoughts Change your life - Living The Wisdom Of The Tao" you can get it on book or audio CD. It basically is his interpretation of each verse of the Tao Te Ching, and how you can apply it's message today. I would really recommend it!

 

Like Marblehead says, there is plenty to read on this forum alone!

[Jetsun]

For a beginner I would recommend the Tao of Pooh book, I read it recently expecting it to be rubbish after years of reading many of the classic complicated texts and I thought it was great.

 

The foundation texts of it all are Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, after that everything starts to become very complicated in my view, many people will recommend you do exercises and energy techniques claiming them to be Taoist but it is unclear how many of them really are, but there is no harm in experimenting in most of them (except the Mantak Chia sexual stuff which will mess you up), it is even unclear if Tai Chi is Taoist in orgin although most people seem to agree that Bagua Zhang circle walking was practised by Taoist monks.

 

The basic Qigong I started with was that taught by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming, he explains things well enough, Bruce Frantzis too writes well and has a lot of good material.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Jetsun

[Harmonious Emptiness]

it is even unclear if Tai Chi is Taoist in orgin although most people seem to agree that Bagua Zhang circle walking was practised by Taoist monks.

 

Tai Chi not of Taoist origins? Is there a thread I missed somewhere?

 

Cheers.

[lazy cloud]

Keep visiting The Tao Bums website/discussions!

Check out the sub-forums The Tao Te Ching , Chuang Tzu, Nie-Yeh.

Check out the Pinned Thread in the General Discussion area: Resources:Books, Links, Articles, Movies.

 

I agree with the recommendations of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming and Bruce Frantzis. Ken Cohen's "Way of Qigong" is another good entry level qigong book.

Without debating origins on this thread, Find a Tai Chi Chuan class, book, and or Dvd.

There is much debate about different Tai Chi Chuan teachers, schools, styles. Do not concern yourself too much about this. For a beginner , again Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming is a decent choice. My personal favorite Tai Chi Chuan book is Cheng Man Ching's "13 Treatises on Tai Chi Chuan" Another favorite book of mine is Chang Chung-yuan's "Creativity and Taoism"

 

Steady consistent progress over time is the correct approach. Beware of claims of fastest or most powerful. There are public teachers on this forum who do have enthusiastic loyal students that are also on this forum. Some cheerleading and some bickering goes on here. Do not concern yourself too much with that either. Also i suggest that you check out some of the Buddhist threads. (( again there will be some bickering))

In time you will find what resonates best for you.

Edited November 8, 2011 by lazy cloud

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hey Muqtada,

 

I suppose depending where you live, there's often a lot of good books on Taoism at used and new book stores. Pretty much anything translated by Thomas Cleary is a GEM* though some feel he maybe over-translates a bit on certain terms. Cleary also has more than an academic knowledge of Taoism and Buddhism, plus he's read and translated so many many many texts that his footnotes are also excellent.

 

I second 365 Dao by Deng Ming Dao.

The I Ching is even older than the Tao Te Ching, and there are many varied and good translations, so you could there as well as Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu. Also, don't miss the Neiye section at TTB -- another incredible early text .

 

Personally, I suggest a fairly simple Chi Kung/Qi Gong form before learning Tai Chi, as the integration of body, breath, and mind is most important for the more complex Tai Chi forms, so it's best to start there, imo, though I would further recommend getting the personal feel for naturalness of mind and body from reading texts as well, since this will translate into your Qi Gong.

[Jetsun]

Tai Chi not of Taoist origins? Is there a thread I missed somewhere?

 

Cheers.

 

What I understand just from reading little bits in books and on the web is that the origins of Tai Chi are surrounded in legend and not much is confirmed, some think it could be inspired by Buddhism or Confucianism or a mix of it all.

[Muqtada]

Thank you for all the suggestions! I have already read the Tao of Pooh (although I hear there's the Te of Piglet which I haven't looked at yet) and a couple translations of the TTC but it would appear I have plenty more reading ahead of me

 

It would seem the Chuang Tzu one is pretty important but I'm excited that there are so many places I could start. I'm sure my local bookstore doesn't carry most of these but that's the wonderful thing about the internet... you can always find it somewhere!

 

Are there any notorious translations that I should stay away from when looking at the classic texts? Or are they all pretty good, with some just better than the others?

[thelerner]

I'm in the minority here but I hated thenTao of Pooh. I'd suggest books by Daniel Reid, and check out the healingtaousa site. I've learned quite a bit from Michael Winn's works. There are some gifted teachers here too. Santiago runs an online Skype course called KAP that teaches energy work. Ya Mu teaches courses in healing Chi Gung that is eye opening.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Are there any notorious translations that I should stay away from when looking at the classic texts? Or are they all pretty good, with some just better than the others?

 

The only notorious one's I'd say is anything Carl Jung was involved with as he and his translators had no background knowledge so they just sort of turned it into a support of their own theories (actually I believe Jung and Freud lifted a lot of their theories from Buddhism and Taoism which they were both relatively well read in.. but that's another thread.........).

[konchog uma]

I'm in the minority here but I hated thenTao of Pooh. I'd suggest books by Daniel Reid, and check out the healingtaousa site. I've learned quite a bit from Michael Winn's works. There are some gifted teachers here too. Santiago runs an online Skype course called KAP that teaches energy work. Ya Mu teaches courses in healing Chi Gung that is eye opening.

 

just wanted to say i second the Daniel Reid recommendation, and i always recommend Chronicles of Tao by Deng Ming Dao to daoist neophytes. I am not going to engage anyone in discussion about whether its all true or not so feel free to air your grievances free of concern that i will attack you :D i won't.

 

i also did not like Tao of Pooh but thats not to say it doesn't have some redeeming value.

 

in my experience muqtada, daoism is about doings, or practices. There is philosophical daoism, but getting your diet, meditations, qi cultivation, sexual, and martial practices in order are a big part of it. There are obvious and hidden ways to apply the philosophy of Lao and Chuang to any art, from music to painting to dance to theatre etc. But mostly, i think that engaging in some daoist practices is the real key to unlocking the door of dao in your life. That is just how i would teach it if i were a daoist master tho hahahaaha :D philosophy is the basis for all these things and its good to understand, but without action and practices i think it is much much harder to apprehend the dao.

 

and of course the dao that can be apprehended isn't dao at all, but thats another conversation. Ask marblehead. :D

[starhawk]

 

and of course the dao that can be apprehended isn't dao at all, but thats another conversation. Ask marblehead. :D

 

Try Scholar warrior by deng Ming-dao it is one of the best I have found. Ken Cohens is a bit watered down as he makes it plausible and palpable for philosophical Taoists... more adapted to the west.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Taoist philosophy in practice:

 

B.K. Frantzis' "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body".

[Taomeow]

Tai Chi not of Taoist origins? Is there a thread I missed somewhere?

 

Cheers.

 

No one who does taiji under a lineage master has ever shared this opinion. Everybody else... well, people like having opinions, don't they? Opinions are human, taiji is divine.

 

Taiji is not only taoist, it is taoist to the core. There's pretty much nothing about it that is anything else. Ti taiji, ti tao -- embody taiji and you embody tao.

[Taomeow]

Try Scholar warrior by deng Ming-dao it is one of the best I have found. Ken Cohens is a bit watered down as he makes it plausible and palpable for philosophical Taoists... more adapted to the west.

 

Both would be good choices for a beginner. Also Eva Wong's "The Shambala Guide to Taoism." And "The Watercourse Way" by Alan Watts.

 

I'm in the minority here but I hated thenTao of Pooh.

 

I hated it without even reading it, just skimming through a few pages.

[Birch]

Watered down is fine ! As long as it's still water :-)

[konchog uma]

It would seem the Chuang Tzu one is pretty important but I'm excited that there are so many places I could start. I'm sure my local bookstore doesn't carry most of these but that's the wonderful thing about the internet... you can always find it somewhere!

 

you can read Victor Mair and James Legge's (i think thats his name) translations here in the Chuang Tzu subforum as we break them down chapter by chapter btw

 

i recommend Victor Mair's Chuang Tzu and Tao Te Ching over others, he is my favorite translator. But i don't recommend stopping there, theres a lot of comparing to do to really get the points of the Tao Te Ching, and maybe not so much with Chuang Tzu but a little variety never hurt.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Tai Chi not of Taoist origins? Is there a thread I missed somewhere?

 

Cheers.

 

Depends on where you're coming from

 

B.K. Frantzis talks about it.

 

The tai chi philosophy and energetic and health stuff is Taoist. The ways it implements the physical movements is in line with Taoist energetic/health principles, and it seeks to use Taoist philosophy in combat. Yes.

 

But the movements themselves had basis in a Shaolin related style, which a certain Chen family member modified after he learned things related to Taoist health and energetics.

 

So again, it depends on where you're coming from.

 

Frantzis, for example, really really really likes Bagua. He mentions things like "it's the only purely Taoist art", which is true as far as his lineage goes, as he learned from Liu Hung Chieh who learned the Bagua circle walking and energetics and spiritual development directly from Taoists.

 

It's abundantly clear that martial lineages coming from Doing Haichuan (so Yin style, Cheng style, etc) are mixes of Shaolin with circle walking, because it's a well known fact that Dong Haichuan only really accepted students who were already proficient in a martial art, and he taught them bagua principles to augment what they already knew into their own style (so for Yin Fu it was luohan quan, for Cheng Tinghua, it was shuai jiao). It should be noted that both B.K. Frantzis and Liu Hung Chieh learned a lot from these martial art lineages of Bagua as well, though later on and at higher levels, moved on to the more purely(?) Taoist monastic style.

 

At least that's how I understand it. Hope that clears some stuff up.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

No one who does taiji under a lineage master has ever shared this opinion. Everybody else... well, people like having opinions, don't they? Opinions are human, taiji is divine.

 

Taiji is not only taoist, it is taoist to the core. There's pretty much nothing about it that is anything else. Ti taiji, ti tao -- embody taiji and you embody tao.

 

WoW! You put it all right on the line, didn't you?

 

Good job!

[zerostao]

No one who does taiji under a lineage master has ever shared this opinion. Everybody else... well, people like having opinions, don't they? Opinions are human, taiji is divine.

 

Taiji is not only taoist, it is taoist to the core. There's pretty much nothing about it that is anything else. Ti taiji, ti tao -- embody taiji and you embody tao.

 

 

cool, so i reckon we dont need a specific thread debating if tai chi is of taoist origin.

i love it when Taomeow shares/gives her opinion.

Tai Chi Is THE Taoist art.

( i am about to start a new thread however about baguazhang (which is also very very taoist)

but it being from shaman origins. some could say taoist came from proto-taoist which came from shamans,

sages. so lets save our comments about that for that other thread.

ok, enuff of my quasi ranting borderline derailing except for this @Harmonious Emptiness,

i woulda gave you a +3 for suggesting The I Ching!! but then you went and dissed JUNG so - 3 for that one. again i see(insist) other threads

 

Muqtada, thanks for your thread (leading to new threads!!)

and all the best luck with the Taoist Journey!!!!!!!!

Muqtada, you did get alot of great suggestions here. Welcome to the Tao Bums. you bum you.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I've read some Tao philosophy but the area I live in is devoid of such things. Are there practices, like forms of meditation, that accompany Tao? How do I go about learning about Tao philosophy or practices further? Do you have any good resources for a Tao beginner? I've been lurking through the forums on and off since I joined and it would appear that I don't know even a quarter as much as I thought I did.

 

Any help would be appreciated,

Thank you

 

The Daoist priest Liu Hung Chieh said you "should give them what they want, not what they need. Maybe they'll have a happy accident and realise what they need".

 

I'm going to be straight forward, I hope it is of help, if not no worries

 

All the "entry-level" books I've read on Daoism aren't worth reading, they cause far more confusion than they do help and easily create mis-understanding. I have seen this time and again, and certainly fallen flat on my face as well, only to be sorted out by a teacher.

 

If you are interested in reading Chinese and Daoist philosophy be aware that unlike Western philosophy, which has an intellectual as well as pragmatic side, Chinese and Daoist thought does not, not really. It is pragmatic. That means it is embodied knowledge. Which is embedded in a Dao. Be aware that;

 

Internal martial arts

Qigong/neigong/daoyin

Chinese medicine

Meditation

 

Are NOT the same thing. They are related by a long standing Chinese cosmology yes, but they ARE different. Some people do some or even all of these and learn or are taught to 'see' connections etc. Know what you want to learn and go to where you can learn it and do your best not to be sidetracked. In time things can change, allow this. A Dao is best learned from someone. Be prepared to travel.

 

Don't worry if that can't happen straight away. If you want to read and get 'background'. Two pieces of advice. One, go to original sources and engage with them. Appreciate every translation and someones pontifications in a "commentary" are coloured by their perspective. They are NOT the thing itself, sometimes they help sometimes they do not.

 

Two, appreciate that it won't make sense to you straight away. Its not meant to. Meaning and understanding is meant to be teased out from the words (ideally with the practice and guidance of a teacher). This process is in itself the Dao (path).

 

Practices? If your interest is Daosim start with Zuowang, end with Zuowang. Anything else (daoyin/neigong/waigong/neidan/waidan etc) is done to deepen Zuowang. Google it and find some articles that should help you begin until you can find a teacher.

 

All the best,

Edited November 14, 2011 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

it is even unclear if Tai Chi is Taoist in origin although most people seem to agree that Bagua Zhang circle walking was practised by Taoist monks.

 

This is basically what I understand too. The bagua walking is also debated but is not as muddy a water as Taijiquan's "origins".

 

Tai Chi not of Taoist origins? Is there a thread I missed somewhere?

 

It has been mentioned before, but it does seem to upset people. We should bear in mind that 'history is subjective' and can only ever be informed opinion at best.

 

So, Mmm, here is what I understand. The idea of 'taiji' comes from the Yi jing. Which, as we know, pre-dates "Daoism" as an entity (this generally being regarded Lao Zi and after). On a side note there are older versions of the 'gua' (tri-grams) used in the Yi jing found elsewhere in Asia/Mongolia and evidence they were imported and assimilated and then expounded upon by the Chinese.

 

The origins of the martial art that later became referred to as Taijiquan, is still a highly debated area. Lets be clear, we know it was not originally called taijiquan, this name came only later (earlier names being; 沾拳 zhan quan "touch boxing", 绵拳 mian quan "soft boxing", 十三式 shi san shi "the thirteen postures" ).Yet there appears to be no historical indication that it emerged from Daoism. Like the development of the arts, martial and otherwise practised at the Shaolin monastery, methods change and evolve through interaction with other practices. It was only later on that some also training in Daoism and practices like Daoyin found the art to be a good vehicle/container for it. Why? Because it was, as everything from house location, carpentry etc was based upon the same fundamental cosmology which includes wuji-taiji-liangyi-sixiang-bagua etc. Which is Chinese, not Daoist. The fact that at some point someone decided to choose the name Taijiquan to represent their 'quan'in reference to the older concepts laid out in texts like the Yi Jing, Lao zi etc is a basic Chinese way of thinking and showing respect for the past and humblness.

 

Please do not misunderstand me,

 

Taijiquan CAN be Daoist. As can drinking tea. Not because it is called "taiji" and "taiji" is Daoist. But it becomes Daoist when Daoists engage with it and make use of it and infuse their practice of the Dao with it. Though this does not make it Daoist in origin. I know Daoists who make use of electricity!

 

I'll give a modern example. Chen style never claimed Daoist origins, Yang style which is generally considered to have come from Chen does. Yet no meditation tradition was taught 'within' the taiji, although some practised forms of meditation along with their taijiquan and explained the from using Daoist writings. Wu Jien Quan the son of its founder was a Daoist and this "informed" his taijiquan and he infused his form with aspects of his Daoist meditation. But he did not teach the Daoist meditation that was a part of 'his' personal form. Liu Hung Chieh studied with Wu and so was exposed to this "Daoist taiji", but it was only later once he had fully learned a Daoist tradition elsewhere that he infused his Wu style form with the internal Daoist aspects.

 

Taijiquan has been and can be used by those following the Dao, as can many things.

 

It is telling to note, that most throughout history that are interested in spiritual matters often infuse physical activities with 'inner' work and meditation. Yet for the most part these physical activities are kept simple, and are not grossly sophisticated movement arts. I think it is obvious why. Walking is commonly used within classical martial arts, Sufi, Buddhist, Daoist and many other cultivation paths but it is not 'from' them. There is what we are trying to learn and there is what we use to learn it and they are not always the same thing.

 

This at least is how I've come to view these things,

 

Best,

Edited November 14, 2011 by snowmonki

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Okay, so as an exercise, there was a type of tai chi before being used for Taoist purposes, maybe, but we still don't know where it came from, so it could have just as well been developed by Taoists wishing for a movement that stretches and strengthens the organs, teaching this version to laymen and keeping the secrets secret.

 

I read somewhere that tai chi was taught first to mongol rulers as a harmless and slow exercise, keeping the fast movements secret, but I don't know that validity of this.

 

Either way, Tai Chi, as it is, even if there was a similar exercise regimen previously, is entirely Taoist.

 

I don't know why people regard the I Ching as having non-Taoist roots either. How could it be anything other than Taoist, working with Heaven and Earth, Yin and Yang, Positive and Negative, Solid and Broken. The DDJ may have popularized the philosophical roots of it, but that doesn't mean everything before it was not Taoism. Those Jedi mind tricks ain't wukin' on ME.

 

And what about the Yellow Emperor and the Nei Jia? Was that not about Yin and Yang + Five Elements? Didn't it come before the Dao De Jing? nuh uh...

Edited November 14, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[寒月 Hanyue]

Okay, so as an exercise, there was a type of tai chi before being used for Taoist purposes, maybe, but we still don't know where it came from, so it could have just as well been developed by Taoists wishing for a movement that stretches and strengthens the organs, teaching this version to laymen and keeping the secrets secret.

 

Hehe, I did say people don't like it

 

It is interesting to note just how much a notion about the past can so easily be added into the collective understanding of people, even when it has no validation whatsoever. Take the example of the idea that people in medieval times thought the earth was flat!!

 

No. There was a martial art, the physical art can be traced back to Chen Wang Ting, a general during the later years of the Ming Dynasty. The "strategy" that can be understood to underpin this 'quan' can be traced back further.

 

The daoyin and the aspects of that and the hows and why that different daoyin practices were used by Daoists or anyone else were developed separately.

 

Taijiquan, the shape of it and the movement of is martial. There are much easier ways to daoyin the body.

 

I read somewhere that tai chi was taught first to mongol rulers as a harmless and slow exercise, keeping the fast movements secret, but I don't know that validity of this.

 

?Can't comment

 

Either way, Tai Chi, as it is, even if there was a similar exercise regimen previously, is entirely Taoist.

 

No, its entirely Chinese. And given that the physical basis for the development of Taijiquan comes out of other styles that are generally regarded as Buddhist, well??

 

I don't know why people regard the I Ching as having non-Taoist roots either. How could it be anything other than Taoist, working with Heaven and Earth, Yin and Yang, Positive and Negative, Solid and Broken.

 

 

Look into it. Jesus wasn't christian either you know. Many of the ideas and concepts regarded by a lot of people today as Daoism, are simply Chinese ideas. Hence they appear within Daoist thought, and Confucian thought, and later Chinese Buddhist thought. The Chinese tend not to throw things away, or even use the Western philosophical notion of thesis-antithesis-synthesis. Instead they opt for syncretism.

 

Just because the Daoists took something, developed and ran with it, doesn't mean its Daoist. It means it can be used to understand the Dao, which is what they were bust trying to do no?

 

The DDJ may have popularized the philosophical roots of it, but that doesn't mean everything before it was not Taoism. Those Jedi mind tricks ain't wukin' on ME.

 

Everything has a source that reaches back before it existed. Oral tradition exists before written. That is why I said, "generally", because generally Laozi is considered the staring point of Daoism. But you cannot retcon (to borrow a term from fiction writing) everything from before to having been considered Daoist at that time, simply because Daoism is ONE of the things that developed centuries later!! sorry it doesn't work that way my friend

 

And what about the Yellow Emperor and the Nei Jia? Was that not about Yin and Yang + Five Elements? Didn't it come before the Dao De Jing? nuh uh...

 

Um, are you listening? Yes because they are basic to Chinese thought and cosmology. The same basic thought and cosmology that was expounded upon by Confucius and became Confucianism, and the same basic thought that was expounded upon by Laozi and became Daoism. You don't have to believe me, I don't care what you think or believe. But any basic reading into legit sources on Chinese history, culture and philosophy will explain this.

 

Good luck to you on your path,

 

Best,

Edited November 14, 2011 by snowmonki