Chuang Tzu Chapter 4, Section A

[nestentrie]

Yes, courage is having the strength and determination to act when action is needed. But Courage is also having the strength and determination to not act if that is the best thing to do.

 

Would that be called 'endurance'? And what is typical behavior for someone who lacks endurance, or fails in its test?

[nestentrie]

Courage is another one of those things that only really exists conceptually. as All virtues that one is, or might be calling 'positive attributes' likewise are. The very fact that one considers them "positive" already! is entering the world of make believe.

 

I was a little unsure as to whether I agreed with this or not at first, but then some other things struck me. What is Faith? What is Hope? What is Intergriy? What is Love? All suggestive labels rather than fixed states or behaviours with definite subjects. A world of make believe.

 

It's why I questioned Marblehead about his contribution. His definition of courage seemed almost prudential, with courage being able to pick and choose where it's applied. Is it something more basic like endurance? If you have to challenge or stay still it's being able to endure the situation that's important. Courage I suppose can still define that, but I dunno, what would either of you say to that? (Marblehead and stosh)

[Stosh]

My opinion, and it is just opinion...is that courage like some other emotions ..is an amalgam of attitudes defined by what a person ends up doing. It seems that in some traditions these too have no ummm existance , we recognize the bold motivated feeling in our gut , or the calm recognition that the die is cast..but I just don't have any certainty that its a specfic single thing... maybe negation of fears? Yeah, I like the fit of that ..that's my opinion, ill stick with that.

 

Do you want to take on describing the foundations of lusty type love? Tag you're it.

[Stosh]

Makes one wonder: "what are we supposed to do with our subjective nature?" I suppose just reflect the truth of it?

 

Give it a big hug and the wisdom of perspective.

[nestentrie]

My opinion, and it is just opinion...is that courage like some other emotions ..is an amalgam of attitudes defined by what a person ends up doing. It seems that in some traditions these too have no ummm existance , we recognize the bold motivated feeling in our gut , or the calm recognition that the die is cast..but I just don't have any certainty that its a specfic single thing...

 

 

I can agree with that. And i suppose as it can never really be more than a retroactive label we'll never know if Yan Hui was displaying courage or not as it never gets to the point where he is with the ruler dispensing his advice. He had an admirable attitude to going though I think.

 

I think describing lusty type love would be veering too far off the chapter discussion :/ I could probably do it, but I want some kind of closure with the Chuang Tzu we're discussing!

[Rara]

 

 

I can agree with that. And i suppose as it can never really be more than a retroactive label we'll never know if Yan Hui was displaying courage or not as it never gets to the point where he is with the ruler dispensing his advice. He had an admirable attitude to going though I think.

 

I think describing lusty type love would be veering too far off the chapter discussion :/ I could probably do it, but I want some kind of closure with the Chuang Tzu we're discussing!

I remember having a similar chat with Stosh a couple of months ago.

 

It seems to me that anything done with thought and/or emotion is somewhat distant from nature.

 

I use happiness and sadness as an example. To the extremes, there is moments of sheer excitement and ecstacy, and there is depression. Both equally as illusory as each other....as well as anything else on the spectrum.

 

But then there is that feeling...that undescribable feeling. It relates not to happiness or excitement, but it just feels "right". It makes us content with things. I, as well as everyone I'm sure, reach this in mediation.

 

So for me, this chapter is a display and an example of how ideas between two oppoaing forces cannot be changed. The attempts will be futile and the desire to want to change things is so far from the Tao and can only lead to that illusory emotion of disappointment.

[Rara]

 

 

I can agree with that. And i suppose as it can never really be more than a retroactive label we'll never know if Yan Hui was displaying courage or not as it never gets to the point where he is with the ruler dispensing his advice. He had an admirable attitude to going though I think.

 

I think describing lusty type love would be veering too far off the chapter discussion :/ I could probably do it, but I want some kind of closure with the Chuang Tzu we're discussing!

I remember having a similar chat with Stosh a couple of months ago.

 

It seems to me that anything done with thought and/or emotion is somewhat distant from nature.

 

I use happiness and sadness as an example. To the extremes, there is moments of sheer excitement and ecstacy, and there is depression. Both equally as illusory as each other....as well as anything else on the spectrum.

 

But then there is that feeling...that undescribable feeling. It relates not to happiness or excitement, but it just feels "right". It makes us content with things. I, as well as everyone I'm sure, reach this in mediation.

 

So for me, this chapter is a display and an example of how ideas between two oppoaing forces cannot be changed. The attempts will be futile and the desire to want to change things is so far from the Tao and can only lead to that illusory emotion of disappointment.

[Marblehead]

Would that be called 'endurance'?

An example of true endurance would be remaining married to a woman who bitches all the time.

 

(Sorry. That was my first thought.)

[Marblehead]

It's why I questioned Marblehead about his contribution. His definition of courage seemed almost prudential, with courage being able to pick and choose where it's applied. Is it something more basic like endurance? If you have to challenge or stay still it's being able to endure the situation that's important. Courage I suppose can still define that, but I dunno, what would either of you say to that? (Marblehead and stosh)

Well, I haven't read Stosh's reply to this yet so forgive me if I repeat him or contradict him.

 

Yes, courage would include endurance. But here courage could be mistaken for apathy or nihilism.

 

Courage would be doing what needs be done without any thoughts of the ramifications of our actions. No thoughts of praise or blame.

 

But still, courage is subjective. It will vary between individuals.

[Marblehead]

I can agree with that. And i suppose as it can never really be more than a retroactive label we'll never know if Yan Hui was displaying courage or not as it never gets to the point where he is with the ruler dispensing his advice. He had an admirable attitude to going though I think.

 

Actually, Chuang Tzu speaks to this in a later chapter (courage) but never states his own opinion - he just proposes questions for thought.

 

What is courage? Doing what you feel needs to be done and putting your own life in danger or not doing anything because you know it will likely make anything better anyhow?

 

I think our true nature, our unconscious mind, will dictate what we are to do and in many cases we would never be able to logically defend why we did what we did.

[Stosh]

I can agree with that. And i suppose as it can never really be more than a retroactive label we'll never know if Yan Hui was displaying courage or not as it never gets to the point where he is with the ruler dispensing his advice. He had an admirable attitude to going though I think.

 

I think describing lusty type love would be veering too far off the chapter discussion :/ I could probably do it, but I want some kind of closure with the Chuang Tzu we're discussing!

Quite right .